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Warfare & Tactics

 
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More FW changes on SiSi

First post
Author
BolsterBomb
Perkone
Caldari State
#101 - 2012-05-03 19:18:48 UTC
Ramon Sohei wrote:
Quote:

1. Cannot dock in stations that are in systems controlled by an enemy
- Example: Minmatar cannot dock in stations in a FW system controlled by the Amarr/Caldari
- You also cannot use station services if you docked before system flipped
- Ninja Edit: This does not affect neutrals


"FW System" meaning this affects only lowsec? In other words, you can have militias docking on enemy hisec?
If so, that sounds like a loophole already in the design.



I agree HS docking should be removed in its entirety to the opposing miltiia.

Brig General of The Caldari State

"Don" Bolsterbomb

Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation

Deen Wispa
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2012-05-03 19:24:37 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:

...
Post with your main because you alt has no credibility.


This is his main, I think. He was with Huang Yinglong- a Minmatar RP corp. He's an LOL RPer hence his desire to be fully immersed in the spaceship world. RP > RL

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .

X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
#103 - 2012-05-03 19:28:43 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:

...
Post with your main because you alt has no credibility.


This is his main, I think. He was with Huang Yinglong- a Minmatar RP corp. He's an LOL RPer hence his desire to be fully immersed in the spaceship world. RP > RL

That's terrible. Some guy who has made billions off of FW selling firetails and has not fought once in how many years? Does anybody here really think this dude is gonna get out there and fight after this patch? In the words of Damar Rocarion, MotherMoon is BLOCKED. Lol
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#104 - 2012-05-03 19:44:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Ramon Sohei wrote:
Quote:

1. Cannot dock in stations that are in systems controlled by an enemy
- Example: Minmatar cannot dock in stations in a FW system controlled by the Amarr/Caldari
- You also cannot use station services if you docked before system flipped
- Ninja Edit: This does not affect neutrals


"FW System" meaning this affects only lowsec? In other words, you can have militias docking on enemy hisec?
If so, that sounds like a loophole already in the design.


I've already tested this.. Yes you can still dock in any station out side of FW space. Example, while I couldn't dock in Ostingele I could dock in Pelille which is right next to Ost.

This is why I mentioned early on in this topic, that even if Caldari loses all our low sec station systems we can still fight all around the map with out much issues. On other hand if Gals lose all their station systems they will have much harder time trying to live any where near Black Rise. Lol

Also to those that haven't noticed all the LP costs in the FW store have gone back to "normal" cost for ships. FW stores seems to no longer get the FW discount with BS's at 150k LP but now are 600K LP for a Scorp Navy Issue & Navy Ravens were 1 million LP..

Meanwhile over at the State War station, Navy Ravens were still 600k. Meaning the selling of faction BS hulls will go back into the hands of neutral running LVL 5's. Sure is great benifit to fight for your Militia when some carebear can get the same ship for 400k less LP.. Roll


edit.. also at current datacore prices you will actually lose ISK trading in your LP's for them. They cost 1k LP + 1 mil ISK for 5 Datacores. The data cores on the markets are around 100k each and there are probably crap loads of them yet to be dumpstered into the market by all the guys cashing theirs in with this change.

Who knows how long it will take to burn through all the ones out there + the ones that have already been bought up by speculators. Either way it will likely be a long time before they become profitable for the average FW guy to sell.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
#105 - 2012-05-03 19:49:24 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
What made the current plexing mechanic better was that you could flip a system in a reasonable amount of time. This gave hope to casual players that they could really help flipping a system.

However, in the name of protecting players from getting locked out of their stations without warning (the same excuse for horrible sov mechanics in 0.0 btw), the great thing about the current plexing mechanic is being removed.

That's the challenge in a nutshell.

Don't worry, we'll adapt to a more boring playstyle since none of the casual players will be willing to invest 100's of hours of their time to flip a single system. Val Erian and his alts will do the dirty work on our side. Damar will do the dirty work on his side, and when a system gets close to flipping we'll all pile in for the fights. In the meantime we'll all go kill something else.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#106 - 2012-05-03 19:58:22 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:

...
Post with your main because you alt has no credibility.

This is his main, I think. He was with Huang Yinglong- a Minmatar RP corp. He's an LOL RPer hence his desire to be fully immersed in the spaceship world. RP > RL


X Gallentius wrote:
That's terrible. Some guy who has made billions off of FW selling firetails and has not fought once in how many years? Does anybody here really think this dude is gonna get out there and fight after this patch? In the words of Damar Rocarion, MotherMoon is BLOCKED.

I vaguely recall MM. Don't let him/her/it(?) give you the wrong impression of the rest of Huang Yinglong. lolRPers they may be, but they are among some of the best Minmitar fighters out there.

Anyways... we're getting sidetracked here.


The simple fact of the matter is... these new mechanics are deeply flawed, have numerous loop holes, encourage people to use said loopholes, and take away from the "roving packs of dogs" mentality that many of us in FW cherish (and revel in).
I said it before and I'll say it again; I didn't join Faction Warfare to play "0.0 lite." I joined Faction Warfare to get kills... preferably while drunk... without having to deal with the hassle and drama of organizing people who generally don't want to work together in the first place (the term "herding cats" comes to mind).

People say FW as it is has no goal or objective... I disagree. For me, it's all about casually killing people who live right next door to you and then shouting at each other like a bunch of hairless prepubescent boys while chest beating. It's one of the last places in EVE where egos can form, grow, and clash with one another without being bogged down in politics and obligatory operations.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#107 - 2012-05-03 20:57:34 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:
This is stupid, this is like complaining in guildwars WvW, you can't walk into your enemy's keep to respawn after you die.

you think it's fair? that if you die in battle you can just dock up in your enemy's homeland, buy weapons of death, and therm just undock ready for battle again? You have to take the system, in order to have access to it.

Right now it's so stupid, you can just hide in enemy space, or you can set up a forward depot of a ton of premade ships. This lead back in the day to battles where one person would be in station fiting out ships as fast as they could, then as FW players died in the corp they would dock up, get a new ship, and undock, so dumb, it's not a game. The changes will not be fun, they will make the game harder. There will still be work arounds.
Making eve harder might seem crazy to you new guys, but eve is suppose to be hard, you'll find a way to deal! : )


You're right that there are workarounds. The most obvious of them is to leave FW.


Well good then, everyone already did that a year ago

I don't see the problem. Why should CCP cater to the 10% of people who for some reason still think FW is a good system. I mean think about it your trying ton argue that the status quo is better than this new change. Are you mental? NO ONE PLAYS FW. it's finally getting some attention after 3 years of feature abandonment. The people left aren't really even players, they are a random group of players that are about to have thier game they have enjoyed for the past 3 years taken away from them.

And guess what, if everyone playing FW right now left eve or whatever, it wouldn't matter there is only really like 6,000 people at this point. Counting alts and AFK people like I have been for the past 2 years.

If these changes get us back to the old days, when there was 10,000 players per side and pvp was easy to find and fun, then GOOD. don't let the door hit you on the way out, the system you so loyally defend is not fun and was abandoned by the playerbase at large years ago. Stop trying to defend it as an example of good game design.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

BolsterBomb
Perkone
Caldari State
#108 - 2012-05-03 21:00:12 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Deen Wispa wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:

...
Post with your main because you alt has no credibility.

This is his main, I think. He was with Huang Yinglong- a Minmatar RP corp. He's an LOL RPer hence his desire to be fully immersed in the spaceship world. RP > RL


X Gallentius wrote:
That's terrible. Some guy who has made billions off of FW selling firetails and has not fought once in how many years? Does anybody here really think this dude is gonna get out there and fight after this patch? In the words of Damar Rocarion, MotherMoon is BLOCKED.

I vaguely recall MM. Don't let him/her/it(?) give you the wrong impression of the rest of Huang Yinglong. lolRPers they may be, but they are among some of the best Minmitar fighters out there.


People say FW as it is has no goal or objective... I disagree. For me, it's all about casually killing people who live right next door to you and then shouting at each other like a bunch of hairless prepubescent boys while chest beating. It's one of the last places in EVE where egos can form, grow, and clash with one another without being bogged down in politics and obligatory operations.



Well I plan to do that still to the opposing force like we do every night. Drama, dude join caldari and meet drama.

There will always be drama,

Brig General of The Caldari State

"Don" Bolsterbomb

Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#109 - 2012-05-03 21:06:51 UTC
BolsterBomb wrote:
There will always be drama,

True... but at least right now I am not forced to deal with (much less work with) people creating said drama in the name of "the greater good." I can remain aloof and just do my own thing til people cool down.
Fleet Warpsujarento
Doomheim
#110 - 2012-05-03 21:08:55 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:
This is stupid, this is like complaining in guildwars WvW, you can't walk into your enemy's keep to respawn after you die.

you think it's fair? that if you die in battle you can just dock up in your enemy's homeland, buy weapons of death, and therm just undock ready for battle again? You have to take the system, in order to have access to it.

Right now it's so stupid, you can just hide in enemy space, or you can set up a forward depot of a ton of premade ships. This lead back in the day to battles where one person would be in station fiting out ships as fast as they could, then as FW players died in the corp they would dock up, get a new ship, and undock, so dumb, it's not a game. The changes will not be fun, they will make the game harder. There will still be work arounds.
Making eve harder might seem crazy to you new guys, but eve is suppose to be hard, you'll find a way to deal! : )


You're right that there are workarounds. The most obvious of them is to leave FW.


Well good then, everyone already did that a year ago

I don't see the problem. Why should CCP cater to the 10% of people who for some reason still think FW is a good system. I mean think about it your trying ton argue that the status quo is better than this new change. Are you mental? NO ONE PLAYS FW. it's finally getting some attention after 3 years of feature abandonment. The people left aren't really even players, they are a random group of players that are about to have thier game they have enjoyed for the past 3 years taken away from them.

And guess what, if everyone playing FW right now left eve or whatever, it wouldn't matter there is only really like 6,000 people at this point. Counting alts and AFK people like I have been for the past 2 years.

If these changes get us back to the old days, when there was 10,000 players per side and pvp was easy to find and fun, then GOOD. don't let the door hit you on the way out, the system you so loyally defend is not fun and was abandoned by the playerbase at large years ago. Stop trying to defend it as an example of good game design.


Nobody is saying that FW is vital to EVE or that it's currently a success. What we're saying is that these new changes won't help, they will quite possibly make things even worse.

CCP creates an expansion to make FW more popular -> FW becomes less popular -> expansion is a failure.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2012-05-03 21:14:28 UTC
Quote:
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Hrett wrote:
If CCP or anyone cares to see it, here is a long discussion by FW corps on the issue:

Discussion by FacWar corps


Good discussion, keep it coming. As CCP Soundwave stated we are actually locked in to continue working on FW after Inferno, so we will be monitoring the short term effects and have some long term plans that we didn't get time to do.



FYI - CCP says they are reading this thread. Lets try to keep it constructive. ;)

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!

MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#112 - 2012-05-03 21:21:18 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Deen Wispa wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:

...
Post with your main because you alt has no credibility.

This is his main, I think. He was with Huang Yinglong- a Minmatar RP corp. He's an LOL RPer hence his desire to be fully immersed in the spaceship world. RP > RL


X Gallentius wrote:
That's terrible. Some guy who has made billions off of FW selling firetails and has not fought once in how many years? Does anybody here really think this dude is gonna get out there and fight after this patch? In the words of Damar Rocarion, MotherMoon is BLOCKED.

I vaguely recall MM. Don't let him/her/it(?) give you the wrong impression of the rest of Huang Yinglong. lolRPers they may be, but they are among some of the best Minmitar fighters out there.



Yes, And I used to be one of the best FW fleet commanders on the servers. I quit eve over FW being abandoned. I was one of the bigest people pushing for FW before it's release.

This is my main, and while these changes might not be the magic bullet, you better believe I will get back in FW if CCP actully bring life back into it.

I just couldn't bring myself to log in anymore once no one was playing anymore. Everyone was so active and pumped for the 1st year of FW, as we waited , and waited for some changes. we all asked CCP to add some reason to take over systems, for better rewards.

At some point all that was left was to run FW missions, and hope to get some ok PvP from a passing enemy who is also doing cloaky missions.

I have over 13,000 posts on the eve forums, have helped the original CSMs, created the seemless eveonline desktop background you'll find if you ever try to find the eve video wall papers on eve files.

I helped create the awesome eve offline top down shooter back in the day with tarminic, Back when his post were forced to be pink. I fought in the alliance tournament.

I've quit huang to join eve university. And promote our rp corp through eve university to new players, teach them th ropes and send them off to our corp. Because honestly I'm a busy busy busy person in real life. I work as a 3d environment artist on major titles you've most likely at some point had your hands on. If you've ever been to or sent a kid to IDtech camp in the states, you've been effected by lesson plans created by myself as lead instructor.

So I'm sorry if I'm upset that after 3 years CCP might actually finally make some change to the part of the game that killed my passion to play eve. All I could think was CCP doesn't care, and they will never update FW, it's a lost cause. I'm not the only one who sorta dropped out of eve because of this.

Blocking us out of stations isn't a big deal. Stations just outside of FW space will start to form into tiny trading hubs. Think of the money you could make setting up a corp just to sell to FW members that are behind enemy lines. Besides all you need is a POS somewhere, and you can use that instead of a station.

Also as a major Fleet commander of the minmatar militia back in the day, I'm sorry but I don't seem to think I saw many of your names in FW. I would love a reason to log back into eve and play FW again. and to be honest I only ever made plex money off of Grinding firetails, so I could slowly wait for even a small update for FW. I've waited 3 years , and it's happening, in just a month FW might be wroth something again. So I'll fight to see that come to fruit!

Besides, like i said, if the changes go live and it's not fun, then we ask them to change it again. NOTHING COULD BE WORSE THAN WHAT WE HAVE NOW. And the fact that CCP released it with as much hype as they did and then abandoned it still makes me face palm. Didn't you see how epic that expansion was? There was a book, and real in game events. News reports, and even a trailer in the movies. FW has been the biggest disappointment eve has ever seen. yes even bigger than Incarna. Because FW is real in space gameplay. And ignoring a feature that was hyped and built up so effectively, for over 3 years, is disrespectful to the playerbase.

So please, I be you guys, don't fight this change, let it happen, no one is left in FW anyways. If anything this might be a good change after all, and if it's not, FW is already a broken piece of trash, they can just try again, or maybe even abandon it for another 3 years, whatever.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#113 - 2012-05-03 21:24:07 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
Quote:
Nobody is saying that FW is vital to EVE or that it's currently a success. What we're saying is that these new changes won't help, they will quite possibly make things even worse.

CCP creates an expansion to make FW more popular -> FW becomes less popular -> expansion is a failure.


That's my point, my argument is that it can't get worse at this point. nothing could hurt FW more than it's design right now.

I honestly think FW could be made into something that actually is vital to CCP getting a huge new playerbase. if they did it right. Any step at this point after 3 years of nothing, means there is even a tiny possibility this old vet and others could be drawn back, I SAW GIVE IT A GO!

FW with either make it and become pretty popular again, or it'll go down in flames. IT'll all be up to how CCP follows up these changes as we test them out.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2012-05-03 21:24:31 UTC
And for what it is worth - the main issue I see that is kind of at the root of everyone's complaints:

Whatever changes are made, the best (or even a good) counter should NOT be a meta-game solution. e.g. Neutral alts to get around the station lockout, using mostly unskilled alts to run missions and LP flood IHUBS, or using alt corps to grief the other side (especially that unlike 0.0 corps, we cant control who our "allies" are because anyone can join FacWar).

Regardless, I like the sound of most of the changes. I just hope that they are tweaked properly to avoid the issues described above.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!

MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#115 - 2012-05-03 21:29:15 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
Hrett wrote:
And for what it is worth - the main issue I see that is kind of at the root of everyone's complaints:

Whatever changes are made, the best (or even a good) counter should NOT be a meta-game solution. e.g. Neutral alts to get around the station lockout, using mostly unskilled alts to run missions and LP flood IHUBS, or using alt corps to grief the other side (especially that unlike 0.0 corps, we cant control who our "allies" are because anyone can join FacWar).

Regardless, I like the sound of most of the changes. I just hope that they are tweaked properly to avoid the issues described above.


but hasn't that always been an issue? After 6-8 months people just stopped using militia chat due to spys being so easy to get into there. We had to use outside security channels. I mean this is eve, you can't stop the meta game, can you?

There is no way to tell who is your ally, so FW became a mess. well it was a lot of reasons but I believe that was the biggest drive behind the death of the more open social part of FW. Now everyone is in some corp no one else can join, and the different corps all work alone. this was not the goal on release, it's just how FW is played now because of bad design.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#116 - 2012-05-03 21:33:43 UTC
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:


Nobody is saying that FW is vital to EVE or that it's currently a success. What we're saying is that these new changes won't help, they will quite possibly make things even worse.

CCP creates an expansion to make FW more popular -> FW becomes less popular -> expansion is a failure.


I agree with this but its tricky just talk about changes as being a success or failure in general.

What one person sees as a success another will see as a failure. Those players who are inclined to play eve like it is a second job and don't mind long waits for large fleets to form up and want to put in lots of effort for large returns will no doubt like these changes. And indeed many null sec players have expressed their happieness with these changes.


Those of us who don't look at eve like a second job but like the casual nature and frequent small scale pvp faction war offers will likely not be happy with the no docking rule and some other "hard core" changes.


IMO these changes are a failure not because people will drop out of faction war. I don't think the numbers in fw will necessarilly decrease in the long run. I think many people who like the null sec style of play will take the places left by people who prefered the casual small scale pvp fw now offers.


I think this is a failure because Eve will no longer be catering to as many diverse play styles. After faction war becomes "null sec lite" what mechanic will cater to people who like the frequent small scale pvp that fw used to offer?

Its a shame that instead of iterating on the strengths of fw through the years, CCP left it abandoned and now just want to force null sec mechanics down our throats. Had they done the former they might now have a much larger player base of casual pvpers. Of course, its never too late to start working that angle they just need to choose to do that.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2012-05-03 21:35:15 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
Hrett wrote:
And for what it is worth - the main issue I see that is kind of at the root of everyone's complaints:

Whatever changes are made, the best (or even a good) counter should NOT be a meta-game solution. e.g. Neutral alts to get around the station lockout, using mostly unskilled alts to run missions and LP flood IHUBS, or using alt corps to grief the other side (especially that unlike 0.0 corps, we cant control who our "allies" are because anyone can join FacWar).

Regardless, I like the sound of most of the changes. I just hope that they are tweaked properly to avoid the issues described above.


but hasn't that always been an issue? After 6-8 months people just stopped using militia chat due to spys being so easy to get into there. We had to use outside security channels. I mean this is eve, you can't stop the meta game, can you?

There is no way to tell who is your ally, so FW became a mess. well it was a lot of reasons but I believe that was the biggest drive behind the death of the more open social part of FW. Now everyone is in some corp no one else can join, and the different corps all work alone. this was not the goal on release, it's just how FW is played now because of bad design.


And allowing alliances has resolved much of that issue.

Yes the meta-game in EVE is always an option. No suprise there. It should not be the hands-down best option though.

Anyway - someone from SiSi just said you have to capture numerous systems in a group before they all lock you out. Is that true? Can someone clarify?

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#118 - 2012-05-03 22:08:51 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
[NOTHING COULD BE WORSE THAN WHAT WE HAVE NOW.

Actually, it could. There is some serious discussion among some of the more established FW corps/alliances... and there is a general feeling that it would be easier/simpler to just drop out of FW and go "full pirate"... leaving SP-less alts to do all the grunt work in plex capturing/defending.

Plus... the way the new mechanics are worded (at least, the way we are understanding them), even as "technical neutrals" we would continue to gain most of the system upgrade benefits. Hell... we could LET the "enemy" take over the system, upgrade it at their cost, and STILL kill them while reaping the benefits of THEIR efforts.

Someone explain to me how that is NOT broken?
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
#119 - 2012-05-03 22:13:44 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
Yes, And I used to be one of the best FW fleet commanders on the servers. I quit eve over FW being abandoned. I was one of the bigest people pushing for FW before it's release.
Your killboard says otherwise. You can't quit something you never participated in.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#120 - 2012-05-03 22:29:18 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:
[NOTHING COULD BE WORSE THAN WHAT WE HAVE NOW.

Actually, it could. There is some serious discussion among some of the more established FW corps/alliances... and there is a general feeling that it would be easier/simpler to just drop out of FW and go "full pirate"... leaving SP-less alts to do all the grunt work in plex capturing/defending.

Plus... the way the new mechanics are worded (at least, the way we are understanding them), even as "technical neutrals" we would continue to gain most of the system upgrade benefits. Hell... we could LET the "enemy" take over the system, upgrade it at their cost, and STILL kill them while reaping the benefits of THEIR efforts.

Someone explain to me how that is NOT broken?



I think this is the logical consequence based on what we know so far.

So far the only advantage to keep a pvp character in the militia would be you will also get lp for you pvp kills. However unless they make that easy to exploit I doubt it can be very much lp.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815