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Warfare & Tactics

 
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More FW changes on SiSi

First post
Author
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#81 - 2012-05-03 16:42:19 UTC
+1 for docking rights. If you want to dock, take the system. Its just common sense that militia stations can have the right to refuce docking to the enemy faction.

moving fights away from docking timers and timers in general is always a good thing IMO.

also looking forward to the other mentioned features

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#82 - 2012-05-03 16:51:48 UTC
Cearain wrote:

I predict the pve will give you mad amounts of lp. I intend to give it a fair shake, but it looks like the best bet will be to put your pvp characters in a neutral corp and have your pve alts in fw.


I have seen absolutely zero changes that directly buff PvE or mission running. As far as I know, every single one of the increases has been on the PvP side of the equation.

As it stands, Faction Warfare pilots will enjoy more monetary rewards for their pew pew than any other career PvP'er in the game, unless your massive alliance has tech moons and replaces all your ships 100%. Even pirates won't be profiting as much from killing other players as Faction Warfare pilots will. The idea that there is no incentive to be a PvP-er in FW vs a neutral PvP-er is just plain silly.


CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#83 - 2012-05-03 16:59:01 UTC
Mechael wrote:
Faster system flipping sounds like it would be in order here.

The enemy not letting you dock in their stations makes sense. Hell, enemy sentry guns shooting you when you get close makes sense. Having to gather together gigantor blobs to duke it out before anything meaningful happens does not make sense.

Faster system flipping and/or a more dynamic "contested" period is definitely what is in order here.


One of the top complaints about the coming changes has been that players HATE the idea of working towards rewards / consequences that will be taken away overnight.

The faster systems are flipped, the more meaningless any system-based consequences or rewards become. I told CCP straight up that I had ZERO intention of putting my hard-earned LP towards upgrading a system if I had not even the slightest guarantee that I could still enjoy the reward when I woke up the next morning. I'd much prefer just to buy ships with it instead.

But if I knew it took a few days to flip a system, and a coordinated effort could be mounted where I could rely on the allies that I trust to pick up the defense where I left off ? Sure, that's worth investing in.

The Faction Warfare community has begged for consequence and reward for years now. It's arrived. Why in the world would we want to water it down and render it meaningless before anyone's even had a chance to enjoy it first?

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#84 - 2012-05-03 17:07:53 UTC
Meditril wrote:
Can anyone tell me if LP and Tag prices for faction modules are changed too? Currently it is simply not worth to create most of the faction modules because they are much more expensive than their dead space counterparts. Is this fixed?


If you watch the Fan Fest presentation, you'll notice the plan is to put LP store prices on a sliding scale based on Factional success. I don't know exactly the state of this scale on SiSi without more documentation from CCP, or if that's even what's causing the price change, but thats the likely culprit. If its based on Victory points and none have been accumulated on the test server, pilots might not be able to see how low the prices can actually go quite yet. This is all speculation though, I can't say for sure until its been tested and confirmed, or CCP comes out and says so.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

MinutemanKirk
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Dock Workers
#85 - 2012-05-03 17:08:34 UTC
First let me start by saying that I am for many of the changes CCP has proposed. I certainly want purpose and reward for killing enemies and plexing and I certainly think it's high time that FW got benefits and perks in the form of things other than navy ships.

The big issue that I have from this isn't the station locks, new capture mechanics or anything that is directly tied to FW (even if I disagree with some of them), my issue is with neutrals in FW zones.

CCP RubberBAND wrote:

Without going into exhaustive detail:
1. Cannot dock in stations that are in systems controlled by an enemy
- Ninja Edit: This does not affect neutrals

2. There are 5 levels of discounts for a number of different things - if you own the system and have upgraded it
- Medical clone discounts (from 10% in increments of 10 up to 50% discount)
- Number of assembly lines increases by 1 for every level
- All broker fees discounted (from 10% in increments of 10 up to 50%)
- NOTE: You only get these discounts in the FW system
- ADDENDUM: These discounts apply to neutrals not in FW



Neutrals receive all the benefits of system upgrade (at least the ones that have been announced) without having to put any LP into it, worrying about losing station access or even fighting over plexes. Think about that. In 0.0 you can't use station services unless the owner (who has to fight, pay, and risk in order to actually own it) allows you. In other words, to prevent exactly what neutrals will be able to in FW space. How is it fair (or as CCP calls "balanced) gameplay that the non-FW enemies I shoot get to reap all the benefits of my hard work to take and upgrade my system ESPECIALLY when we have to use our hard earned LP (and hence possible isk) to upgrade it?

CCP has been promising to buff low sec. I was all for it, until I saw this and realized that at least part of that would be accomplished at FW's expense. Some will say it's better to have more enemies, but as has been proven, there are multiple alliances that live in low that own tech moons that don't NEED those benefits and can AFFORD the time and isk to lose lots of ships playing station games or camping plexes or missions.

I just can't see see how CCP could conceive that it would be alright for non-FW entities to interfere with our FW fights and affairs and still get to eat the cake that we baked.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#86 - 2012-05-03 17:26:06 UTC
Hidden Snake wrote:
It is not about the size of the dog in the fight, It is about the size of the fight in the dog .....

.... we lack numbers we compensate it by sneaky techniques .... ECM bursts etc. ... funny how he is buthurt they did not catch my SBing, stabbed, cloaky, ECM burst scorpion ..... ;)


A thousand times this. ^^

I've seen a lot of aspects to the package of FW iterations that directly discourage blob warfare. I'm excited for all of the details to be released, including the stuff not yet on SiSi, along with the explanations coming in the dev blog next week. At that point I can put a whole lot of this into its proper context.

But overall, I think the set of changes will favor the faction who is willing to cooperate more than the other, and who is willing to put in the most effort. That doesnt have anything to do with size. I think an underdog faction with a higher degree of coordination, especially across time zones, will be able to make inroads against a larger yet disorganized foe. So much of how this war turns out will depend on pilot tenacity and pilot attitude, not on sheer numbers.

Its refreshing to see so many pilots coming up with a dozen different ways to adapt and survive in the new system, even against the odds, and it really contrasts with those that say "What?? inconvenience?? **** that, I'm outta here."

No one complains that you can't fly with impunity in enemy high sec, no one complains that you have to spend time repping a POS after an enemy strike, no one complains that sometimes ships get camped in and you have to use alts to move things. These are not horrific tragedies, they are part of the consequences that make EVE the *challenging* game that it is.

Like I've said a thousand times before, this isn't the consequence I would have picked, but I think we've taken measures to make it a reasonable one in the overall context of the new system.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#87 - 2012-05-03 17:34:23 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
If you watch the Fan Fest presentation, you'll notice the plan is to put LP store prices on a sliding scale based on Factional success....

Will probably be based on systems held as that is the single most 'unfair' method from an Amarr PoV (less systems, bottlenecks everywhere in minnie space etc.) Big smile

"Blob the crap out of the enemy for a fortnight and get 50% off in LP store. better missions rewards, cheaper everything and more stuff in general! .."
Null is FUBAR .. come Summer, FW is FUBAR Sad

Has CCP given any indication as to how they plan on avoiding the inevitable snowball from starting up where one or two militias take over everything .. the datacore crap won't work as one gets LP for everything so even with no space held one can ninja-plex more than enough to feed the market.

PS: CCP, revise the Amarr/Matar theatre damnit .. you did geography magic at launch for Caldari, now finish what you started!
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#88 - 2012-05-03 17:46:00 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Cearain wrote:

I predict the pve will give you mad amounts of lp. I intend to give it a fair shake, but it looks like the best bet will be to put your pvp characters in a neutral corp and have your pve alts in fw.


I have seen absolutely zero changes that directly buff PvE or mission running. As far as I know, every single one of the increases has been on the PvP side of the equation.

As it stands, Faction Warfare pilots will enjoy more monetary rewards for their pew pew than any other career PvP'er in the game, unless your massive alliance has tech moons and replaces all your ships 100%. Even pirates won't be profiting as much from killing other players as Faction Warfare pilots will. The idea that there is no incentive to be a PvP-er in FW vs a neutral PvP-er is just plain silly.





You assume that plexing is mainly a pvp activity? Has something changed to make that the case?

The only difference I see is offensive plexing fleets will likely want to fit cloaks to their ships so they can get past gangs with teh mwd cloak trick and also "dock" cloaked in a safe spot.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#89 - 2012-05-03 17:55:50 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Mechael wrote:
Faster system flipping sounds like it would be in order here.

The enemy not letting you dock in their stations makes sense. Hell, enemy sentry guns shooting you when you get close makes sense. Having to gather together gigantor blobs to duke it out before anything meaningful happens does not make sense.

Faster system flipping and/or a more dynamic "contested" period is definitely what is in order here.


One of the top complaints about the coming changes has been that players HATE the idea of working towards rewards / consequences that will be taken away overnight.

The faster systems are flipped, the more meaningless any system-based consequences or rewards become. I told CCP straight up that I had ZERO intention of putting my hard-earned LP towards upgrading a system if I had not even the slightest guarantee that I could still enjoy the reward when I woke up the next morning. I'd much prefer just to buy ships with it instead.

But if I knew it took a few days to flip a system, and a coordinated effort could be mounted where I could rely on the allies that I trust to pick up the defense where I left off ? Sure, that's worth investing in.

The Faction Warfare community has begged for consequence and reward for years now. It's arrived. Why in the world would we want to water it down and render it meaningless before anyone's even had a chance to enjoy it first?



What you describe is null sec sov warfare in nutshell. It can be fun and many people like it, but why make fw the same as that?

Why the big consequences no docking and long timers so all the blobs can assemble? Why make it so no small gang can do anything substantial in a short time before a blob forms to clear them out?


Seriously if you want big rewards for big effort why don't you go to null sec?

If my militia doesn't react to threats when i am gone so be it - just don't make the consequences that big. Very few in faction war want to have a second job protecting big rewards. yes some consequences. But for the big consequences following big efforts there is null sec.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Phoenix IV
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#90 - 2012-05-03 18:07:44 UTC
Meditril wrote:
Can anyone tell me if LP and Tag prices for faction modules are changed too? Currently it is simply not worth to create most of the faction modules because they are much more expensive than their dead space counterparts. Is this fixed?


Currently everything requires 4 times more lp on sisi than on tq. For example 600k lp for a navy domi instead of 150k.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#91 - 2012-05-03 18:12:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Hidden Snake wrote:
It is not about the size of the dog in the fight, It is about the size of the fight in the dog .....

.... we lack numbers we compensate it by sneaky techniques .... ECM bursts etc. ... funny how he is buthurt they did not catch my SBing, stabbed, cloaky, ECM burst scorpion ..... ;)


A thousand times this. ^^


I believe you. The minmatar will surely take a thousand fights when they drastically outnumber their enemy. P

But seriously whats with this "yay big effort big rewards" null sec talk?

What happened to the hans that ran a campaign on low sec as a fight club with frequent small scale pvp?


How are longer timers where the larger side is never in a rush to protect anything and can always wait for their blob to form going to promote that?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2012-05-03 18:26:20 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
This is stupid, this is like complaining in guildwars WvW, you can't walk into your enemy's keep to respawn after you die.

you think it's fair? that if you die in battle you can just dock up in your enemy's homeland, buy weapons of death, and therm just undock ready for battle again? You have to take the system, in order to have access to it.

Right now it's so stupid, you can just hide in enemy space, or you can set up a forward depot of a ton of premade ships. This lead back in the day to battles where one person would be in station fiting out ships as fast as they could, then as FW players died in the corp they would dock up, get a new ship, and undock, so dumb, it's not a game. The changes will not be fun, they will make the game harder. There will still be work arounds.
Making eve harder might seem crazy to you new guys, but eve is suppose to be hard, you'll find a way to deal! : )

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
#93 - 2012-05-03 18:26:44 UTC
Cearain wrote:
What happened to the hans that ran a campaign on low sec as a fight club with frequent small scale pvp?

How are longer timers where the larger side is never in a rush to protect anything and can always wait for their blob to form going to promote that?


Went the same direction is "change we can believe in" ?
BolsterBomb
Perkone
Caldari State
#94 - 2012-05-03 18:27:43 UTC
Damar Rocarion wrote:
Cearain wrote:
What happened to the hans that ran a campaign on low sec as a fight club with frequent small scale pvp?

How are longer timers where the larger side is never in a rush to protect anything and can always wait for their blob to form going to promote that?


Went the same direction is "change we can believe in" ?



OMG LOLOLOL the first time Damaar said something I can immediately say hahahaha Im on board with that

Brig General of The Caldari State

"Don" Bolsterbomb

Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation

Fleet Warpsujarento
Doomheim
#95 - 2012-05-03 18:29:55 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
This is stupid, this is like complaining in guildwars WvW, you can't walk into your enemy's keep to respawn after you die.

you think it's fair? that if you die in battle you can just dock up in your enemy's homeland, buy weapons of death, and therm just undock ready for battle again? You have to take the system, in order to have access to it.

Right now it's so stupid, you can just hide in enemy space, or you can set up a forward depot of a ton of premade ships. This lead back in the day to battles where one person would be in station fiting out ships as fast as they could, then as FW players died in the corp they would dock up, get a new ship, and undock, so dumb, it's not a game. The changes will not be fun, they will make the game harder. There will still be work arounds.
Making eve harder might seem crazy to you new guys, but eve is suppose to be hard, you'll find a way to deal! : )


You're right that there are workarounds. The most obvious of them is to leave FW.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2012-05-03 18:42:14 UTC
Also guys think about it. Everyone left FW, ti's dead. it's current members *me included i only left yesterday to get into a new corp after finals week*

all current member are only 20% of the orginal numbers. I myself have just been farming firetails and making billions of isk. No one has been playing Factional warfare, I think a lot of people just don't want to lose their free ride, and all you see here on the forum are those 1000 players who have been using FW missions to make a ton of money.

Docking up in enemy space is a very real tactic to avoid losing your ship while grind up the LP and making more money than I think most people understand you can make.

If you play FW missions for 8 hours I will have enough for a plex. So I could play eve for only 8 hours a month, and I can keep my free sub to eve online. I however knew the free ride was going to end. So yes ccp is going to get a lot of push back, but I hope they stay strong and don't care about this tiny dead features playerbase, who are mostly mission runners.

Sorry guys but the glory days of FW died a long time ago.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#97 - 2012-05-03 18:51:58 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
This is stupid, this is like complaining in guildwars WvW, you can't walk into your enemy's keep to respawn after you die.

you think it's fair? that if you die in battle you can just dock up in your enemy's homeland, buy weapons of death, and therm just undock ready for battle again? You have to take the system, in order to have access to it.

Right now it's so stupid, you can just hide in enemy space, or you can set up a forward depot of a ton of premade ships. This lead back in the day to battles where one person would be in station fiting out ships as fast as they could, then as FW players died in the corp they would dock up, get a new ship, and undock, so dumb, it's not a game. The changes will not be fun, they will make the game harder. There will still be work arounds.
Making eve harder might seem crazy to you new guys, but eve is suppose to be hard, you'll find a way to deal! : )



Seriously would you stop with rp reasons.

Why would the 24th imperial crusade not allow its own members to dock in its station?

The stations are often owned by private third parties not the factions.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#98 - 2012-05-03 19:05:34 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
..I however knew the free ride was going to end...

So any idea when that will happen? Sure as hell isn't with this grand FW fix round .. "winners" can chain missions same as now and reap even higher payouts thanks to discounts based on militia performance while losers can chain plexes in ass-end systems (aka. ninja-plexing) and pull roughly half of what is currently possible going full mission whoring (assuming average mission is 5-10minutes incl. transit).

Free ride is alive and well and with neutrals benefiting from "our" work the worst case scenario is FW becoming a massive farm fest .. upside of course is that there is a good chance of this system creating some pit-stop systems manufacturing wise so that the denizens of bore-sec won't have to Titan bridge quite so far for their quafe What?

On the whole the changes are as poorly thought out as almost all the other 'fixes' we have been graced with over the years combined Big smile
Ramon Sohei
The Florez Law Firm
#99 - 2012-05-03 19:05:47 UTC
Quote:

1. Cannot dock in stations that are in systems controlled by an enemy
- Example: Minmatar cannot dock in stations in a FW system controlled by the Amarr/Caldari
- You also cannot use station services if you docked before system flipped
- Ninja Edit: This does not affect neutrals


"FW System" meaning this affects only lowsec? In other words, you can have militias docking on enemy hisec?
If so, that sounds like a loophole already in the design.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
#100 - 2012-05-03 19:12:34 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:

...
Post with your main because you alt has no credibility.