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Possibly too far with balancing Incursions?

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Gabriel Luminati
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#281 - 2012-04-29 07:51:44 UTC
THANK YOU CCP!

So i get an email saying "Come back, we've made changes!" Blah blah blah. And i think, sure! You, know, ive missed Eve and could always do with making my fortunes and helping people out etc.

So when i resub (with a PLEX thats sky high right now!) i then find that my community and the thing i like to do most, now pretty much no longer exists!

I used to be an FC within BTL Community and remember hundreds and hundreds of players in BTL all advertising fleets etc and quite a few FCs and community organisers in channels. But now, its a handful of people desperate to try and make little more ISK than solo-ing lvl 4s with barely anyone at the helm it feels.

So yes, Thank you CCP for destroying perhaps the biggest communities in Eve and ruining the EVE Raids (For you WoW trolls).
I sincerely hope 1-2 of these new changes are reverted, and soon too.

Jita is already on fire, dont make us Incursion Runners do the same to Amarr too....
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
#282 - 2012-04-29 08:07:37 UTC
Gabriel Luminati wrote:

Jita is already on fire, dont make us Incursion Runners do the same to Amarr too....


Sounds like a plan.

Remove insurance.

Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#283 - 2012-04-29 08:57:55 UTC
Caldari Citizen 786478786 wrote:
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Your average PUG was probably topping out at 80 or so...more like 40 now.


80mil ISK/hr for a PUG was at least double what it should have been, which makes your 40mil ISK/hr now about right where it should be. OTOH, considering that number is still ahead of what the average L4 highsec mission runner makes and nearly double what highsec miners are making it might still be too high.

You missed the bit where I said "topping out"...they didn't all make that, and the ones that did couldn't do it consistently.


L4's make 30-50m/h if you have half a brain, and require an order of magnitude less effort....just how low do incursions need to be pushed?

thhief ghabmoef

CCP Affinity
C C P
C C P Alliance
#284 - 2012-04-29 11:36:43 UTC
We will be monitoring the feedback and looking at the stats over the next couple of months, comparing them to the stats we had pre-escalation, to see how things look once everyone has settled into the new changes.

♥ CCP Affinity ♥

Follow me on Twitter

Game Designer for EVE Online

Team Astro Sparkle

Annunaki soldier
Perkone
Caldari State
#285 - 2012-04-29 11:44:10 UTC
why people dont get it that incursions and their money involved really were adding more to pvp , also to industrialist . The money from there where spent to buying pvp ships to break all the time , that you buy t2 things , that people produce those. Now with limiting the money involved we all lose. PvPer's that had the incursion for their supply of ships will just buy less ships , cheaper ships also. That also include less money to people that produce that.

As for mining instead of limiting the other money why not fix the mining money involved and raise their profit in order to actually be profitable being a miner ( i am always talking about high sec things )

Those that say people will go low sec now they are mistaken. People that didnt go low sec , will stay high sec even if they nerf things to the bottom. If you deny their option to substain their accounts and limit the fun THEY want for them then they will just leave for another game.

Ride hard, live with passion 

javer
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#286 - 2012-04-29 11:44:44 UTC
well that is a response we can live with,
thing is we can allready tell you that vanguards is overnerfed when a fleet needs to field 5x3bill+3x1.5bill+2x0.5bill ships to make 1/3 of before then .....
Quit making changes on a whim, and document what the hell you do. changes that aint in patch notes is called bugs for most companies, but for ccp then it means a gm will have to say sorry its a new feature suck it up and have fun....
CCP Affinity
C C P
C C P Alliance
#287 - 2012-04-29 11:51:07 UTC
We did dev blog about it, put it in patch notes and tell all the players the changes were on SISI, then we monitored the feedback and made changes again according to the feedback received from the Incursion community :) Bettik and I will continue to monitor the feedback and stats

♥ CCP Affinity ♥

Follow me on Twitter

Game Designer for EVE Online

Team Astro Sparkle

Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#288 - 2012-04-29 12:19:52 UTC
Quote:
Incursions

Vanguard and Assault Sites have been revamped with the following changes:
NPCs have been grouped into waves and groups have been randomized; this will prevent blitzing and increase the random element within the sites.
Spawn triggers moved from individual NPCs to the group as a whole.
Lowered the rewards from Vanguard sites by 10%.
For more information see this blog.
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#289 - 2012-04-29 14:28:02 UTC
CCP Affinity wrote:
We will be monitoring the feedback and looking at the stats over the next couple of months, comparing them to the stats we had pre-escalation, to see how things look once everyone has settled into the new changes.
Calling it now: CCP will re-assign, lay-off or otherwise divert resources so this change is never revisited. That is unless EVE's perennial cancers, CCP Greyscale or Soundwave, decide to make some arbitrary changes.

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.

Apolyon I
Shadow of ISW
#290 - 2012-04-29 14:28:39 UTC
CCP Affinity wrote:
We did dev blog about it, put it in patch notes and tell all the players the changes were on SISI, then we monitored the feedback and made changes again according to the feedback received from the Incursion community :) Bettik and I will continue to monitor the feedback and stats


incursion is fine, don't waste your time Big smile
Gath'ran Gammigan
Corpmates.
Post Nord
#291 - 2012-04-29 15:27:41 UTC
CCP Affinity wrote:
We did dev blog about it, put it in patch notes and tell all the players the changes were on SISI, then we monitored the feedback and made changes again according to the feedback received from the Incursion community :) Bettik and I will continue to monitor the feedback and stats


I'm sorry but I find this a little unbelieveable. Had you truly been in touch with players after the proposed changes hit Sisi, you would have seen an overwhelming concern growing in the Incursion community.

A proper assessment on the average completion time for sites was not done. Take the OTA as an example. Blitz fleets were completing the site in 2-3 minutes (because of target prioritization) while public fleets were taking 5-7 minutes per site. With the introduced nerf multiplying the required killed ships by several factors, that time has increased to a 7 minute blitz and 10-12 minutes for a casual fleet.

Keeping these things in mind, with the reduced payouts and the longer completion times, it's no wonder that players are switching to L4 missions. Why would I bother spending 3-4 Billion ISK to maximize the performance of my ship when I can get the same if not slightly better income with a T2 fit mission running battleship?

The change additionally comes at an inopportunate time with the massive changes to the EVE market under way. The cost of ships and modules are rising, and quite frankly, it means the cost of PVP and other such activities is rising too. Where previously many of us could run a few hours of incursions a week to pay for all of our ships, we will now need to dedicate a sizable portion of our gametime to generating ISK to keep up with the ailing market.

The direct effect will most probably see people unsubbing the excess accounts they don't need and can no longer afford to keep PLEXed up, and a further shift away from combat activities to return to the old grinds. Except this time it's with a bitter taste in the mouth because you gave the player base something better - then took it away.

You say you'll be monitoring the changes over the next few months. I say in the next few months, it will already be too late.
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#292 - 2012-04-29 15:34:58 UTC
CCP Affinity wrote:
Bettik and I will continue to monitor the copious amounts of crying on the forums


ftfy
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#293 - 2012-04-29 15:37:01 UTC

Gabriel Luminati wrote:

Jita is already on fire, dont make us Incursion Runners do the same to Amarr too....


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xVx dreadnaught
Space Telentics Systems Inc
#294 - 2012-04-29 17:04:32 UTC
Apolyon I wrote:
CCP Affinity wrote:
We did dev blog about it, put it in patch notes and tell all the players the changes were on SISI, then we monitored the feedback and made changes again according to the feedback received from the Incursion community :) Bettik and I will continue to monitor the feedback and stats


incursion is fine, don't waste your time Big smile


Yeah, you can leave Incursions alone... But I suggest we start nerfing WH's now
Katarina Reid
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#295 - 2012-04-29 18:07:26 UTC
You want isk go to low or null else settle for what you can get. Risk vs Reward.
xVx dreadnaught
Space Telentics Systems Inc
#296 - 2012-04-29 18:17:12 UTC
Katarina Reid wrote:
You want isk go to low or null else settle for what you can get. Risk vs Reward.


Have you looked at the map recently?

Even before the "Burn Jita" campaign by goons, the majority of ship kills have happened in hi-sec for the longest time

The only ship losses in null are small scattered blotches, which are mostly fleet fights. The NPC'ers that are taking the "Risks" that you speak of are constantly aligned to their POS and the instance someone joins local that isn't blue or they get intel from their security channel that there are neutrals near by they warp off and sit in their bubble... I can see why these people should be able to make so much more isk/hour.


Also I said before... there has been almost 300 reported incidents of griefing activities happened against the incursion community since the forming of TDF and BTL. The actions are in most cases impossible to safeguard against... so please don't say that incursion runners don't take risks. Hi-sec is a lot more dangerous than Null-sec.
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#297 - 2012-04-29 19:04:52 UTC
xVx dreadnaught wrote:


Have you looked at the map recently?

Even before the "Burn Jita" campaign by goons, the majority of ship kills have happened in hi-sec for the longest time


This is more a result of people being terrible at this terrible game, than it is a result of "incursions are risky."
plexlon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#298 - 2012-04-29 20:38:00 UTC
CCP Affinity wrote:
We did dev blog about it, put it in patch notes and tell all the players the changes were on SISI, then we monitored the feedback and made changes again according to the feedback received from the Incursion community :) Bettik and I will continue to monitor the feedback and stats



Hopefully that doesn't mean "We've decided to ignore this entirely. If subscriptions are not dramatically down by September we will assume you have adjusted and do other stuff now. We really have no intenion of either admitting a really dumb move or fixing it. Admissions are embarassing and fixes are work. kthnxbye."

On a related note I've heard that the changes on SiSi wer Not the same as the changes on Tranquility. If so saying the community was notified and "we monitored the test server" is a bit like a plumber turning on your ktichen sink, asking you if that looks good, then blowing up your toilet. Not a sevice I'd recommend.
plexlon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#299 - 2012-04-29 20:50:35 UTC
I'm not sure risk/reward is a good sole metric. Effort / reward, cooperatiopn/ reward, etc are pretty well demonstrated economic and social principles. Simply doing risk/reward would suggest that virtual russian roulette would be the best game ever made. Maybe the risk/reward kneejerks (who actually often live in pretty safe territory due to a coopertave alliance) ought to reconsider, or at least stop yammering their catchprases repeatedly and do a little thinking for a change. This isn't to say incursions posed no risk, merely that risk can't possiblu be the sole means of evaluation.
Trinity Six
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#300 - 2012-04-29 21:26:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Trinity Six
CCP Affinity wrote:
We did dev blog about it, put it in patch notes and tell all the players the changes were on SISI, then we monitored the feedback and made changes again according to the feedback received from the Incursion community :) Bettik and I will continue to monitor the feedback and stats



The changes were different in tranquility than they were in Sisi. If you 'made changes again according to the feedback received from the incursion community' then you either misunderstood their feedback, or whoevers feedback you listened to wasn't the popular opinion. That, or you are flat out lying to us.

Feature notes stated you decreased the time for assaults. The exact opposite occurred. Assaults take even longer now.

I suggest you gather feedback in this forum and relook at incursions based on this feedback. This is the popular opinion, and an excellent resource for the direction of the game.

And if CCP ever nerfs something into oblivion again without taking the time and resources to fully test an understand the proposed changes because it is easier, I unfortunately will have completely lost my trust in the company to be capable of managing this game.
Nerf now fix later only serves to infuriate the gaming population. It does not make us more accepting to change.