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Possibly too far with balancing Incursions?

First post First post
Author
Bozl1n
Shiva
Northern Coalition.
#301 - 2012-04-29 21:36:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Bozl1n
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Were I of an incursion-running mind, I'd invest the time and energy into figuring out the best way to capitalize on this sudden drop in interest in incursions. There's probably a lot of profit to be had for an innovative group.

The reaction seen here is exactly why The Skunkworks took such glee in griefing incursions. When CCP yanked the rug out from under us (over and over and over again) we adapted and made the best of it. We found new ways to commit acts of piracy in high sec. Here we are, barely a day into this, and the entire "community" is throwing its hands up and saying "well, that's that, incursions are dead!" I'm not normally one to look down on others, but frankly this defeatism is appalling.

For those of you who will get out there and figure out ways to restore your income level, I beg of you: don't share it with those who won't put in the effort themselves. Enjoy the contest-free incursions and reap great rewards for your effort and creativity.


You might like to know that happened today, to a degree, after 3 days of honing slow AS sites.

We land on grid to see a fleet with 20 ships, as shinny as we were, with only 13 in our fleet. Our FC jumps with joy - contest.

Site ends - we get the blink. 7dps down. Win
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#302 - 2012-04-29 21:48:08 UTC
plexlon wrote:
I'm not sure risk/reward is a good sole metric. Effort / reward, cooperatiopn/ reward, etc are pretty well demonstrated economic and social principles


Uhhhh, wrong. Have you ever been in real life investing or new project development before? It is a rule that the riskier investments have to carry a higher interest rate in order to be attractive to potential investors. There are entire megacorporations that just evaluate how risky securities are. Effort/cooperation has absolutely nothing to do with reward in real life. In a lot of jobs you get paid a salary and in many cases hard working managers can work for 60 hrs/week and a good salesperson can work half that and make twice as much $$$. Have you ever even had a job before? This is finance and general business 101.
CyberRaver
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#303 - 2012-04-29 21:55:19 UTC  |  Edited by: CyberRaver
CCP Affinity wrote:
We did dev blog about it, put it in patch notes and tell all the players the changes were on SISI, then we monitored the feedback and made changes again according to the feedback received from the Incursion community :) Bettik and I will continue to monitor the feedback and stats



Either way you have overdone it, there was a great incursion community and now its gone
Either revert the changes or you can add incursions to all the other great ideas you have had and lost due to kneejerk changes
Kodavor
Iz Doge Korp .
#304 - 2012-04-29 21:55:53 UTC
Quote:
Effort/cooperation has absolutely nothing to do with reward in real life


Back to school young man ! Back to school RIGHT NOW !
Jayrendo Karr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#305 - 2012-04-29 22:35:25 UTC
How far is too Far Enough?
xVx dreadnaught
Space Telentics Systems Inc
#306 - 2012-04-30 00:20:19 UTC
CyberRaver wrote:
CCP Affinity wrote:
We did dev blog about it, put it in patch notes and tell all the players the changes were on SISI, then we monitored the feedback and made changes again according to the feedback received from the Incursion community :) Bettik and I will continue to monitor the feedback and stats



Either way you have overdone it, there was a great incursion community and now its gone
Either revert the changes or you can add incursions to all the other great ideas you have had and lost due to kneejerk changes


Well, I'd say the problem that we face just now is. That shiny fleets may use PUG fleets to sub their income. By contesting more sites more aggressively, they may be able to make up some of the difference post patch.

The best option I'd say to make things more exciting, worth while and involve more people in the incursion community... would be increase the pay outs on Assaults by 25% and HQ's by 50%

(this would push more pilots into the bigger fleets, that are more fun to do, leaving vanguards to the super shiny blitzers and the more enjoyable stuff for the rest of us)
plexlon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#307 - 2012-04-30 00:41:00 UTC
Vaal Erit wrote:
plexlon wrote:
I'm not sure risk/reward is a good sole metric. Effort / reward, cooperatiopn/ reward, etc are pretty well demonstrated economic and social principles


Uhhhh, wrong. Have you ever been in real life investing or new project development before? It is a rule that the riskier investments have to carry a higher interest rate in order to be attractive to potential investors. There are entire megacorporations that just evaluate how risky securities are. Effort/cooperation has absolutely nothing to do with reward in real life. In a lot of jobs you get paid a salary and in many cases hard working managers can work for 60 hrs/week and a good salesperson can work half that and make twice as much $$$. Have you ever even had a job before? This is finance and general business 101.



Actually it appears that most of the return on high risk investment comes from a pirvate profit/public risk model. See TARP program USA for details. I agree it is possible for a political system to be gamed or a game to be rigged to make what you say seem true, but in a less artificial environment it tends not to be all one way. Quite a few fortunes have been made by hard work over the last century or two..completely aside from ones made by imperialism or crooked tax policies and protectionism. I think your salesperson example, while extremely rare, actually contradicts your case. I did not say "time spent." I said "Hard work." If you don't know the difference...well you can cast employment aspersions at yourself in your leisure.

Finally, I see no reason why you felt a need to make this personal. Unless I hit a nerve and made you really mad by suggesting that hard work is valuable, or cooperation? In which case what does that say?

At any rate I was trying to talk about the incuriosn nerf being based on a too-narrow metric, without getting into the specifics of the nerf. From a purely gaming perspective we might look at the effects it had on other aspects of the game? What were they? I think a dev has been quoted as saying the economic impact wasn't huge. SO what..from a purely "keep people in the game, keep the game going," perspective, not a moral emotive outburst, was the issue?
RabbidFerret
Target Practice Inc.
#308 - 2012-04-30 06:17:03 UTC  |  Edited by: RabbidFerret
CCP Affinity wrote:
We did dev blog about it, put it in patch notes and tell all the players the changes were on SISI, then we monitored the feedback and made changes again according to the feedback received from the Incursion community :) Bettik and I will continue to monitor the feedback and stats


I'm sorry, but the community deserves more than a 2-paragraph excerpt on a blog about multiple topics! These changes didn't even get their own blog. How?

I quick look over at the Sisi changes thread is also very concerning. There was a complete failure to address community concerns on there. No proper explanations or rebukes were given to those offering valuable feedback: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=95113

Most of the feedback was negative. A few pilots agreed that VG's needed a nerf, but the majority pointed out that decreasing pay AND doubling the time of completion is more than a 10% nerf. Patch notes stated this:

Quote:
Lowered the rewards from Vanguard sites by 10%.


No mention of doubling the time of completion.. anywhere, actually. The dev blog does not state that the changes to waves and triggers increases completion times. Should we discuss the effect of having to kill all the Maras orbiting at 60km with a close DPS fleet?

On to Assaults. This one hurts my head a bit. Escalation features site states:

Quote:
while the time to complete an Assault invasions will be reduced some.


"will be reduced some" There is no data to support this. No evidence of internal testing. There is a hell of a lot of player data in the Sisi thread stating the exact opposite. Assaults were critical. You can nerf VGs to hell and back but if you made Assaults worthwhile, fleets would have shifted from elite VG groups to more public Assault fleets who attempt to keep a large group together by filling slots with pubbers. Instead, both got nerfed. Assaults are not worthwhile and the remaining VG fleets have become very, very, very exclusive. Does someone care to expand upon the iterations assaults went through in Sisi? Were they changed at all from April 04 to April 25th?

So here is what we want. All of your data and observations from testing. The reasoning behind the changes and why you think they were working during testing as intended. Comparisons of average isk/h incomes between incursions and lvl 4s and why you think the current system is acceptable. Put this together in a devblog devoted only to incursions and give us more than 2 paragraphs. Stay a few extra hours at work today to do this for your community. This change and its effects are your responsibility. We deserve a real discussion here.
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#309 - 2012-04-30 06:54:53 UTC
CCP Logic: Make incursion sites more fun to run via random spawns ... Nerf the income so bad they become useless to run.


I mean ... what the **** guys ? Are you guys trolling or what ?

(On a sidenote I loooove the nullbears whining about their cashmachine 0.0 incursions being nerfed too and not just the highsec ones)
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#310 - 2012-04-30 07:00:07 UTC
CCP Affinity wrote:
We will be monitoring the feedback and looking at the stats over the next couple of months, comparing them to the stats we had pre-escalation, to see how things look once everyone has settled into the new changes.


Please remove CONCORD from High sec Incursions systems. A way to formally ally with the Sansha and fight on their side would be nice as well.
Kodavor
Iz Doge Korp .
#311 - 2012-04-30 07:12:59 UTC
Xorv wrote:
CCP Affinity wrote:
We will be monitoring the feedback and looking at the stats over the next couple of months, comparing them to the stats we had pre-escalation, to see how things look once everyone has settled into the new changes.


Please remove CONCORD from High sec Incursions systems. A way to formally ally with the Sansha and fight on their side would be nice as well.


Do that and you will see ONLY Sansha in that constelation .
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#312 - 2012-04-30 07:28:36 UTC
Kodavor wrote:
Xorv wrote:
CCP Affinity wrote:
We will be monitoring the feedback and looking at the stats over the next couple of months, comparing them to the stats we had pre-escalation, to see how things look once everyone has settled into the new changes.


Please remove CONCORD from High sec Incursions systems. A way to formally ally with the Sansha and fight on their side would be nice as well.


Do that and you will see ONLY Sansha in that constelation .


It's about time the Sansha won rather than be farmed like loot pinatas. However, if making Incursions into more EVE appropriate content is not possible the alternative is more nerfs to balance the risk free nature of High Sec Incursions with that of the rest of the game.
Keith Planck
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#313 - 2012-04-30 07:34:09 UTC
Xorv wrote:
Kodavor wrote:
Xorv wrote:
CCP Affinity wrote:
We will be monitoring the feedback and looking at the stats over the next couple of months, comparing them to the stats we had pre-escalation, to see how things look once everyone has settled into the new changes.


Please remove CONCORD from High sec Incursions systems. A way to formally ally with the Sansha and fight on their side would be nice as well.


Do that and you will see ONLY Sansha in that constelation .


It's about time the Sansha won rather than be farmed like loot pinatas. However, if making Incursions into more EVE appropriate content is not possible the alternative is more nerfs to balance the risk free nature of High Sec Incursions with that of the rest of the game.


maybe incursions were the balanced thing and everything else in eve is just unbalanced :O
Templar Nato
#314 - 2012-04-30 08:37:50 UTC
CCP Affinity wrote:
We will be monitoring the feedback and looking at the stats over the next couple of months, comparing them to the stats we had pre-escalation, to see how things look once everyone has settled into the new changes.


Thank you. It's great to know someone is listening.

I'm sure the data will show that the changes gutted the Incursioning community and will warrant a second look at what was done.
Just Alter
Futures Abstractions
#315 - 2012-04-30 10:39:53 UTC
Dev posts like this remember me of the last summer.

A complete disregard for honesty, willingness to admit mistakes and work towards reverting them.

They lied to the community(assaults) and they never listened to any kind of feedback or maybe they just ignored them.

This should upset even people who do not do incursions.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#316 - 2012-04-30 11:03:26 UTC
CCP Affinity wrote:
We will be monitoring the feedback and looking at the stats over the next couple of months, comparing them to the stats we had pre-escalation, to see how things look once everyone has settled into the new changes.


A few god damed effing months? @#$!!!!! CCP DEVs have the deft touch of a leper in a silk store.
The Incursion community will probaly die in a month with these changes
http://i.imgur.com/aYOL1.jpg
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#317 - 2012-04-30 11:08:36 UTC
RabbidFerret wrote:
CCP Affinity wrote:
We did dev blog about it, put it in patch notes and tell all the players the changes were on SISI, then we monitored the feedback and made changes again according to the feedback received from the Incursion community :) Bettik and I will continue to monitor the feedback and stats


I'm sorry, but the community deserves more than a 2-paragraph excerpt on a blog about multiple topics! These changes didn't even get their own blog. How?

I quick look over at the Sisi changes thread is also very concerning. There was a complete failure to address community concerns on there. No proper explanations or rebukes were given to those offering valuable feedback: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=95113

Most of the feedback was negative. A few pilots agreed that VG's needed a nerf, but the majority pointed out that decreasing pay AND doubling the time of completion is more than a 10% nerf. Patch notes stated this:

Quote:
Lowered the rewards from Vanguard sites by 10%.


No mention of doubling the time of completion.. anywhere, actually. The dev blog does not state that the changes to waves and triggers increases completion times. Should we discuss the effect of having to kill all the Maras orbiting at 60km with a close DPS fleet?

On to Assaults. This one hurts my head a bit. Escalation features site states:

Quote:
while the time to complete an Assault invasions will be reduced some.


"will be reduced some" There is no data to support this. No evidence of internal testing. There is a hell of a lot of player data in the Sisi thread stating the exact opposite. Assaults were critical. You can nerf VGs to hell and back but if you made Assaults worthwhile, fleets would have shifted from elite VG groups to more public Assault fleets who attempt to keep a large group together by filling slots with pubbers. Instead, both got nerfed. Assaults are not worthwhile and the remaining VG fleets have become very, very, very exclusive. Does someone care to expand upon the iterations assaults went through in Sisi? Were they changed at all from April 04 to April 25th?

So here is what we want. All of your data and observations from testing. The reasoning behind the changes and why you think they were working during testing as intended. Comparisons of average isk/h incomes between incursions and lvl 4s and why you think the current system is acceptable. Put this together in a devblog devoted only to incursions and give us more than 2 paragraphs. Stay a few extra hours at work today to do this for your community. This change and its effects are your responsibility. We deserve a real discussion here.



CCP DEVs lied & have thier heads up thier asses IMHO
your test monkies just threw crap on the wall & look what sticking is just a smelly stainAttention
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Gorenaire
Theosophical Society
#318 - 2012-04-30 12:58:35 UTC
xVx dreadnaught wrote:


Yeah, you can leave Incursions alone... But I suggest we start nerfing WH's now


You want WH money ? fine, setup a large POS with all the annoying logistics behind, and do the sites on your own.

You cant have the money and the risk free at the same time. You choose to do pve in high sec, which is fine, but dont envy people who have more balls than you do because they put very often expensive ships on the line each time they leave their POS or enter a wormhole.

Getting 100 mill / hour in high sec is wrong, getting that in wormhole is fine since you can ganked and podded any times.
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
#319 - 2012-04-30 13:19:35 UTC
Gorenaire wrote:
xVx dreadnaught wrote:


Yeah, you can leave Incursions alone... But I suggest we start nerfing WH's now


You want WH money ? fine, setup a large POS with all the annoying logistics behind, and do the sites on your own.

You cant have the money and the risk free at the same time. You choose to do pve in high sec, which is fine, but dont envy people who have more balls than you do because they put very often expensive ships on the line each time they leave their POS or enter a wormhole.

Getting 100 mill / hour in high sec is wrong, getting that in wormhole is fine since you can ganked and podded any times.


Essential you are begging to get ganked. And to get more targets, as you are inviting people to contest your system(s).
Problem is, most of these incursion runners are either carebears and will not leave empire space ever, or they are null bears and just enjoyed the extra cash because their masters did not share the null sec isk with them.
Either way, most will decline your invitations. And even the few that don´t, are mostly just returning back to wh space.

And as you know all this, its easy for you to make such invitations, just imagine if actually really several thousands new players come to wh space and what this would mean for WH income.

Remove insurance.

Vizvig
Savage Blizzard
#320 - 2012-04-30 14:34:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Vizvig
Tenris Anis wrote:
Gorenaire wrote:
xVx dreadnaught wrote:


Yeah, you can leave Incursions alone... But I suggest we start nerfing WH's now


You want WH money ? fine, setup a large POS with all the annoying logistics behind, and do the sites on your own.

You cant have the money and the risk free at the same time. You choose to do pve in high sec, which is fine, but dont envy people who have more balls than you do because they put very often expensive ships on the line each time they leave their POS or enter a wormhole.

Getting 100 mill / hour in high sec is wrong, getting that in wormhole is fine since you can ganked and podded any times.


Essential you are begging to get ganked. And to get more targets, as you are inviting people to contest your system(s).
Problem is, most of these incursion runners are either carebears and will not leave empire space ever, or they are null bears and just enjoyed the extra cash because their masters did not share the null sec isk with them.
Either way, most will decline your invitations. And even the few that don´t, are mostly just returning back to wh space.

And as you know all this, its easy for you to make such invitations, just imagine if actually really several thousands new players come to wh space and what this would mean for WH income.

Most of people in WH is isk farmers or carebears.
Most carebear in WH is one man (or 2) with large pos and 3-4 alts on dreadnought's.

Most of them pays game by PLEX.