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Possibly too far with balancing Incursions?

First post First post
Author
Rico Ramos
See Red
#261 - 2012-04-28 21:56:18 UTC
Since the nerf, I'm on the remove Incursions bandwagon now! Big smile

And while your at it nerf WH and hisec too please. Blink

Get rid of security status and make all of eve just like nulsec. With player corp empires that can wage war with NPC empires! P

WH isk to ease ratio out of wack. NPC's in WH need to be harder! Idea

Internet Space Ships is Serious Business

XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#262 - 2012-04-28 21:56:24 UTC
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
Frooth wrote:
xVx dreadnaught wrote:

The same kind of escalation needs to be part of incursions. VG's at 60-70 mill/hour ASS's 120-140 mill/hour and HQ's 240-280 mill/hour makes perfect sense to me.

(HQ's take a long as time to form up for. if you actually took form up time into effect, it's about 1 hour of form up minimum before you activate a gate)





you my friend are fcking brain dead.


What a mature comment, would you like to leave some substance with your abuse?

If not, move along.


cry about it nerd.

your post provides about the same substance his does
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#263 - 2012-04-28 21:57:27 UTC
Rico Ramos wrote:
Since the nerf, I'm on the remove Incursions bandwagon now! Big smile

And while your at it nerf WH and hisec too please. Blink

Get rid of security status and make all of eve just like nulsec. With player corp empires that can wage war with NPC empires! P

WH isk to ease ratio out of wack. NPC's in WH need to be harder! Idea


needs more emoticons
xVx dreadnaught
Space Telentics Systems Inc
#264 - 2012-04-28 23:25:33 UTC
XXSketchxx wrote:
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
Frooth wrote:
xVx dreadnaught wrote:

The same kind of escalation needs to be part of incursions. VG's at 60-70 mill/hour ASS's 120-140 mill/hour and HQ's 240-280 mill/hour makes perfect sense to me.

(HQ's take a long as time to form up for. if you actually took form up time into effect, it's about 1 hour of form up minimum before you activate a gate)





you my friend are fcking brain dead.


What a mature comment, would you like to leave some substance with your abuse?

If not, move along.


cry about it nerd.

your post provides about the same substance his does


My original post was one of substance, one that stated an opinion. I was replied to with an insult... so I returned the compliment.

Then some stranger jumps on for fun..

These forums are just filled with trolls, just like you.


Back onto topic:

The blitz fleets can actually still complete OTA sites in about 5 minutes... meaning they can still make 120 mill per hour easily.

I do think the Vanguard sites need a different kind of nerf... Either that or just buff Assaults like they should have done, this may bring more people into the bigger sites instead of joining all mach/NM fleets to do OTA's as quick as possible,
Alice Katsuko
Perkone
Caldari State
#265 - 2012-04-28 23:31:35 UTC
I don't entirely understand what all the complaining is about. The Vanguard sites are only slightly less profitable and not that much more difficult to blitz for a good fleet. They now merely require a more attentive FC and competent logistics. A Drake fleet with no webbers and crap composition can no longer make 60 mil an hour, but there's absolutely no reason why they should have been able to do so in the first place. A fleet with decent composition can make good ISK quite easily. Considering that running anomalies in null with a carrier usually doesn't yield more than 60mil ISK, I'd say the Vanguard sites are now quite nicely balanced.

It does take effort to put together a fleet now, but that's mainly due to lack of pilots at this point.
Rezaa
Mercenary Cooperative Conglomerate
#266 - 2012-04-28 23:52:54 UTC
Short responce.......................Yes they went TOOO far (as usal) Its the same old crap from CCP, introduce something then nerf it in to oblivion.............

CCP, why cant to get anything right??????? Been playing of and on sice 04, EVERY single time i come back i keep thinking "yeah they changed" "their doing stuff right now"--------------Not
AveryFaneActual
PandoraSquad
#267 - 2012-04-29 00:04:27 UTC
derp
Jericho Hinken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#268 - 2012-04-29 00:30:24 UTC
I am a newer Incursion pilot, just now getting out of my trusty Raven, so I cant really atest to the people who are making hundreds of millions of isk per hour but I can attest to the newer pilots and the average players, the Incursions were buffed WAY TOO MUCH. I attempted a Vanguard last night with some fellow TVP pilots and it took 25 shiney battleships, the same fleet we used for Assaults, 40 minutes to finish the site. I think that CCP took some of the buffs a little too far, I am not against the overall buff of Incursion NPC's it is just too far, all it is gonna do is turn newer pilots off to Incursions because now it is almost required to be sitting in a multi-billion isk battleship in order to complete the simplest of sites.

-Jericho Hinken
Apolyon I
Shadow of ISW
#269 - 2012-04-29 00:31:18 UTC
Rico Ramos wrote:
Since the nerf, I'm on the remove Incursions bandwagon now! Big smile

And while your at it nerf WH and hisec too please. Blink

Get rid of security status and make all of eve just like nulsec. With player corp empires that can wage war with NPC empires! P

WH isk to ease ratio out of wack. NPC's in WH need to be harder! Idea

jelly??? go to wh or stfu
Caesar Desilva
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#270 - 2012-04-29 00:40:18 UTC
Dear CCP Devs,

The Incursion community of late has been losing activity. Before the recent patch DPS, Sniper and logi pilots patiently waited in queues to join fleets varying from Vanguards to MoM sites however the latest patch has reduced activity. After months of understanding incursions, perfecting them and running them effectively, it is sad to see the communities that the players have built to run incursions has come under pressure. Keeping in mind that a certain degree of nerf was required for vanguard sites, these new changes have been overdone.

Vanguard sites are slow and time consuming hence rendering them unplayable for most players.

What we would have liked to see instead : A decrease in payout by about 10% would have been sufficient to bring it a notch down.

The previous system of completing these VG sites could be kept intact whilst implementing a decrease in pay out. Consequently, those players who ran VG sites on regular bases now do not wish to run incursions. Our community is running dry.

I hope that my agrument has been constructive. I speak on behalf of many players, we would like to see the revival of VG's.

Sincerely
Caesar
Asia Lottatang
Lemmy's BloodWolves
#271 - 2012-04-29 00:53:01 UTC
I would have to agree that vg have been hurt far to much. Over the last week I have seen the incursion community in both high sec and low/null shrink drastically. Hqs and assaults seem to be active still but it is unlikely the any mothership site will be run as the rate at which the incursion profile changes has dropped terribly. I think this is because fewer vanguard sites are being run .
The 10% decrease in payout may have been enough to bring vanguards in line with the other incursion levels. The increase in time spent per site and the hacking can moving around and hacking be a requirement instead of a help has most likely caused this. High level skill point characters with faction battleships or t3 ships and faction fittings have these problems so I would guess that players with lower skill points and wallet have absolutely no chance of taking part in incursions any more.
The possibility of having 4-7 jamming npcs on the field in assaults has most likely hurt incursions as well.
Caldari Citizen 786478786
#272 - 2012-04-29 01:02:37 UTC
Caesar Desilva wrote:
What we would have liked to see instead : A decrease in payout by about 10% would have been sufficient to bring it a notch down.


You're wrong. A 10% nerf to the 150+ mil ISK/hr that some were making would not have been sufficient. A 50% nerf most certainly was and is sufficient and, considering that many Incursioners are already reporting 60-75mil ISK/hr since the nerf, it's clear CCP may not have gone far enough in reducing the ISK payouts.
Toda Takauji
Deep Space Conquerors
Goonswarm Federation
#273 - 2012-04-29 02:01:14 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Simple nerf for incursions would have been to drop sec status below 0.5 to at least form some story of Concord losing control. Sadly EVE is cloning WOW and pvp is now optional. The ground breaking days of eve dies with incursions and now it's all grind and spiders... I mean space ships.

Lol, you are wrong if you think this change will bring about juicy targets to shoot. It certainly won't.
Toda Takauji
Deep Space Conquerors
Goonswarm Federation
#274 - 2012-04-29 02:06:03 UTC
Gudda wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gxe_SLk5D1s <---- made the video. So this means that vanguards are shiny fleet only from now on ? Twisted 5 minutes... they used to be 4 one sec more is not going to stop me from doing them Blink

Horrible music.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#275 - 2012-04-29 05:27:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Caldari Citizen 786478786 wrote:
Caesar Desilva wrote:
What we would have liked to see instead : A decrease in payout by about 10% would have been sufficient to bring it a notch down.


You're wrong. A 10% nerf to the 150+ mil ISK/hr that some were making would not have been sufficient. A 50% nerf most certainly was and is sufficient and, considering that many Incursioners are already reporting 60-75mil ISK/hr since the nerf, it's clear CCP may not have gone far enough in reducing the ISK payouts.

You make it sound like the average fleet was making 150m/hr before the nerf....it just isn't true. Factoring in downtime and suboptimal site selection, a steady 150m/hr all day would be nearly impossible, and that's for a fleet full of pirate battleships. Your average PUG was probably topping out at 80 or so...more like 40 now.

That said, I do agree with vanguards being on the lowest tier as far as payout. (unless you count scouts Roll )

thhief ghabmoef

Nemahs Aideron
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#276 - 2012-04-29 05:47:28 UTC
I love the EVE community

"Yay Incursions nerf! Take that carebears!"

"Hey Shut up Nullbears w/ your ISK-printing moons!"

"Well we have risk!"


Idea Cant we all just play the damn game?
plexlon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#277 - 2012-04-29 06:18:27 UTC
Nemahs Aideron wrote:
I love the EVE community

"Yay Incursions nerf! Take that carebears!"

"Hey Shut up Nullbears w/ your ISK-printing moons!"

"Well we have risk!"


Idea Cant we all just play the damn game?



But that's really the problem, isn't it? It gets less enjoyable to play a game with drastic, random, and arbitrary, changes.
Caldari Citizen 786478786
#278 - 2012-04-29 06:29:58 UTC
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Your average PUG was probably topping out at 80 or so...more like 40 now.


80mil ISK/hr for a PUG was at least double what it should have been, which makes your 40mil ISK/hr now about right where it should be. OTOH, considering that number is still ahead of what the average L4 highsec mission runner makes and nearly double what highsec miners are making it might still be too high.
RabbidFerret
Target Practice Inc.
#279 - 2012-04-29 06:50:20 UTC
It's been a good long while since I've felt the need to voice my opinion on the forums (not like it will actually get heard).

I work in the game industry as a designer so I KNOW that CCP designers must have thought about this nerf from the myriad of angles that it had to be systematically approached from. But I still cannot make sense of it. What the **** were you thinking?

After 8 years of playing this game, Incursions were the thing that made me resub again. Being able to jump into a group activity with strangers on short notice and for a reward that was actually worth the waiting and risk? That's a brilliant game mechanic. That's the kind of stuff that makes or breaks MMOs! It filled the gap between soloing level 4's in empire and plotting to take over the universe. One takes no commitment, the other takes a second job.

So here we are again back with the butterfly effect. You talked about how changes to criminal mechanics had a massive butterfly effect that you are only now reckoning with. Why have you so blatantly ignored it now? Did you fail to consider that nerfing incursions to lvl 4 income would cause so much of the thriving community to just say "**** it" and leave? Now those of us remaining are waiting twice, three times as long for a fleet. Start doing to isk/h math for that! How long until the last few of us leave? It's pretty clear that those of us sticking around are more interested in doing something group-oriented without job-like commitments. But there are only so many nights in a row that you can log on spamming channels for invites before you give up and head off to null sec.

So, let's be clear here:

Level 4's: No risk, solo, no waiting.

Incursions: Controlled but knife-edge risk, always group, always waiting.

There is no imaginable way that Incursions should be comparable to lvl 4's in terms of isk/h. Just no way. Period. I respect your work. I really, truly do. I know how hard it is to make a game. But you need to pay attention to the delicate group dynamics at play in incursions. Make them worthwhile again for the community or I fear come May 15th, a lot of us wont be logging on again.
Niko Takahashi
Yoshitomi Group
#280 - 2012-04-29 07:36:07 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Were I of an incursion-running mind, I'd invest the time and energy into figuring out the best way to capitalize on this sudden drop in interest in incursions. There's probably a lot of profit to be had for an innovative group.

The reaction seen here is exactly why The Skunkworks took such glee in griefing incursions. When CCP yanked the rug out from under us (over and over and over again) we adapted and made the best of it. We found new ways to commit acts of piracy in high sec. Here we are, barely a day into this, and the entire "community" is throwing its hands up and saying "well, that's that, incursions are dead!" I'm not normally one to look down on others, but frankly this defeatism is appalling.

For those of you who will get out there and figure out ways to restore your income level, I beg of you: don't share it with those who won't put in the effort themselves. Enjoy the contest-free incursions and reap great rewards for your effort and creativity.


Amen but you are not going to explain that to the bit slower types.
Looking to get into incursions now.