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Possibly too far with balancing Incursions?

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xVx dreadnaught
Space Telentics Systems Inc
#1 - 2012-04-24 18:34:22 UTC  |  Edited by: xVx dreadnaught
I have been doing incursions for a long time now.

I've never really subscribed to any of the awesome "blitz" fleets. My policy has always been to accept anyone flying a ship that will perform the role needed without being a safety risk

I am glad that these blitz fleets have been slowed down a bit, If they are slowed enough it will be a disincentive for them to grind as much and ease the pressure off some Vanguard systems.

There are 3 ways I could see that they could have done this very effectively.


  • Financial - Reduce income per site { DONE}
  • Formatting - Mix up the waves so that there are more Frigates in OTA's needing killed and Cruisers in NCO's {DONE}
  • Bigger Waves - Make it that you have to kill every NPC in the wave for the next to spawn and only complete the site {DONE}


Personally I think one or 2 of these, used in combination would have done the job in reducing the elite fleets from having such a boring line up. So it would make them more likely to bring a mixture of Cruisers and Battleships.

But Implementing all 3 I can only see as a disruption to everyone wanting to take part in Incursions. I was in a fleet earlier and we were taking about 10 minutes for an OTA with the pay out decreased it is actually possible for me to make more ISK doing lvl 4 missions. And those don't require me to buddy up with 9 other players in order to make my income.
Aratani
Guerrilla warfare.
#2 - 2012-04-24 19:31:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Aratani
Several high-end legion fleets, and fleets with purely shiny faction battleships have been talking about their current vanguard income being only slightly better than soloing l4's. A few public fleets from BTL pub (public shield incursion channel) were reporting doing one site every 15 minutes on average, netting them around 37m isk/hr assuming the fleet runs non-stop.

If the current changes remain in effect, vanguard systems will pretty much become a ghost town. Public fleets won't be formed anymore due to solo l4's becoming more profitable for them compared to doing vanguard sites in their current form.

So unless at least some of the changes are reverted, or possibly bounties added to sansha, these changes will pretty much destroy incursions for the average player wanting to hop into a vanguard fleet for a few hours a week, the shiny blitz-fleets will be able to break the isk/hr of doing level 4's and will most likely be the only fleets in incursion vanguard systems a couple weeks from now.

I guess we'll have to wait and see whether assaults or headquarters can become the new "thing" for more serious incursion runners, but at the moment it seems that the majority of casual incursion pilots are getting completely shafted by the new changes.
Svodola Darkfury
Heaven's End
#3 - 2012-04-24 19:36:36 UTC
I'm actually a little surprised they did both the randomization of spawns AND the ISK nerf. I think one or the other would have been fine; the randomization is the most effective though; it slows down the blitzers but gives the normal players a reason to actually do VGs.

Sad days.

Director of Frozen Corpse Industries.

FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#4 - 2012-04-24 19:46:02 UTC  |  Edited by: FloppieTheBanjoClown
I hear there's good money to be made in wormholes. Just be careful. They say people can actually shoot at you out there.

(edit: the isk nerf is the first part of an across-the-board bounty nerf. The blitz nerf is to renorm payouts and discourage the vanguard farming that has gone on for so long. They're two fixes for two different issues.)

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

JitaPriceChecker2
Doomheim
#5 - 2012-04-24 21:06:00 UTC
+ 10 to CCP for fixing incursions.

Now give bigger reward for lo and 0.0 systems.

Liliana Rahl
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#6 - 2012-04-24 21:46:01 UTC
Oh joy \o/
gfldex
#7 - 2012-04-24 21:50:39 UTC
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
And those don't require me to buddy up with 9 other players in order to make my income.


But I thought folk are running incursions for the fun and social experience? Don't say it was just all about the money!

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.

xVx dreadnaught
Space Telentics Systems Inc
#8 - 2012-04-24 22:53:29 UTC
gfldex wrote:
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
And those don't require me to buddy up with 9 other players in order to make my income.


But I thought folk are running incursions for the fun and social experience? Don't say it was just all about the money!


I still prefer incursions to missions for that very fact... But if it's discouraging other people from coming to play. Then it will mean longer times to form fleets, people will have less patience since the reward for waiting around to form a fleet won't be providing the same reward as something they can achieve on their own.

One of the things I love doing is bringing newbies into incursions... and honestly the easiest way is to show them that it's better money than sitting on their own.

And side note... I'm not bitching or whining about any point in particular. I like the 3 different changes that CCP have used. I just think 1 or 2 would have been sufficient. That all 3 in combination will make Vanguards a lot less popular. And that it's already hard enough to form an Assault or HQ fleet... but when you don't have a pool of active players currently in the area doing VG's it's going to make it a lot slower process forming the larger fleets also.
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-04-24 23:11:36 UTC
Try a rogue drone level 4 now; crap payout bounties, ****** salvage of course, and no loot what so ever but one ****** drone AI chip from rogue drone harrasment, would of been awesome if standard meta 1-4 dropped (why is it that CCP can remove mods from loot tables, but they can't move loot tables around? Straight). Now...nothing of note to even want do a drone mission anymore.

Reducing the drone compounds to 1/5 or 1/10 would still have more value for rogue drones while still giving miners the advantage...but this is CCP we are talking about so don't stop there: Nerf bounties across the board 95% of their value, increase 20% non-skill affecting tax, and slap isk faucets into the ground. Make players cry everytime they buy 1 unit of small Anti-matter ammo Twisted. To top it off for the PVP types that destroy another player ship; no loot drops, no salvage from the wrecks, nothing but a killmail for your effort...in effect it becomes unprofitable to even activate your guns anywhere in EVE and it becomes that big isk sink everybody wanted Twisted
Caldari Citizen 786478786
#10 - 2012-04-24 23:23:00 UTC
Aqriue wrote:
...this is CCP we are talking about so don't stop there: Nerf bounties across the board 95% of their value, increase 20% non-skill affecting tax, and slap isk faucets into the ground. Make players cry everytime they buy 1 unit of small Anti-matter ammo Twisted. To top it off for the PVP types that destroy another player ship; no loot drops, no salvage from the wrecks, nothing but a killmail for your effort...in effect it becomes unprofitable to even activate your guns anywhere in EVE and it becomes that big isk sink everybody wanted Twisted


I was going to ask you to share with me some of what you're smoking, but then I remembered the stuff I smoke doesn't turn me into a raving lunatic.
gfldex
#11 - 2012-04-24 23:34:46 UTC
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
And that it's already hard enough to form an Assault or HQ fleet... but when you don't have a pool of active players currently in the area doing VG's it's going to make it a lot slower process forming the larger fleets also.


Or the change will force players to min/max assautls and HQs. That would lead to even more ISK/h then what we used to have.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-04-24 23:35:43 UTC
Aratani wrote:
Several high-end legion fleets, and fleets with purely shiny faction battleships have been talking about their current vanguard income being only slightly better than soloing l4's. A few public fleets from BTL pub (public shield incursion channel) were reporting doing one site every 15 minutes on average, netting them around 37m isk/hr assuming the fleet runs non-stop.


Sounds like CCP got the nerf perfectly.

Aratani wrote:
Public fleets won't be formed anymore due to solo l4's becoming more profitable for them compared to doing vanguard sites in their current form.

So unless at least some of the changes are reverted, or possibly bounties added to sansha, these changes will pretty much destroy incursions for the average player wanting to hop into a vanguard fleet for a few hours a week, the shiny blitz-fleets will be able to break the isk/hr of doing level 4's and will most likely be the only fleets in incursion vanguard systems a couple weeks from now.


Thanks for confirming that the "social" aspect of Incursions was all a lie and the only thing you care about is isk payout per hr and nothing else. In fact, these changes give you more time shooting and less time warping around so that's more time to "socialize" and be in a fun and interesting group of people.

I foresee a lot of useless alt accounts not being renewed with PLEX which will only mean good things.
EVE Stig
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-04-24 23:49:14 UTC
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
I have been doing incursions for a long time now.

I've never really subscribed to any of the awesome "blitz" fleets. My policy has always been to accept anyone flying a ship that will perform the role needed without being a safety risk

I am glad that these blitz fleets have been slowed down a bit, If they are slowed enough it will be a disincentive for them to grind as much and ease the pressure off some Vanguard systems.

There are 3 ways I could see that they could have done this very effectively.


  • Financial - Reduce income per site
  • Formatting - Mix up the waves so that there are more Frigates in OTA's needing killed and Cruisers in NCO's
  • Bigger Waves - Make it that you have to kill every NPC in the wave for the next to spawn and only complete the site


Personally I think one or 2 of these, used in combination would have done the job in reducing the elite fleets from having such a boring line up. So it would make them more likely to bring a mixture of Cruisers and Battleships.

But Implementing all 3 I can only see as a disruption to everyone wanting to take part in Incursions. I was in a fleet earlier and we were taking about 10 minutes for an OTA with the pay out decreased it is actually possible for me to make more ISK doing lvl 4 missions. And those don't require me to buddy up with 9 other players in order to make my income.


personally I think they should remove them. The in game story reason for them is stretching pretty thin... Dude cant have INFINITE resources and if he DID why the hell is he shooting little pinprick incursions and not a full scale invasion?
Same thought Ive had os the Borg in Star Trek... One cube made it all the way to Earth, they have THOUSANDS of those why they didnt just send a few hundred at the Federation (other than the obvious "bt that would kill the story")?

If they did that of course, there would be massive QQ, probably a bunch og ppl leaving the game then CCP would have to cave to the pressure an put em back in (summer of rage all over again - btw, this is a HORRIBLE position for a gaming company to be in. Its good they listen to us but at the same time, when they cant remove bad things from their own game cause theyre afraid of the players leaving). OR they take them out, ignore the pressure to put them back in and the ppl in null go back to QQing about the isk lvl 4 missions generate while nomming on their tech moons.

"Some say that he is actually dead, but the Grim Reaper is too afraid to tell him." "Some say he is the 3rd member of Daft Punk and he did the vocals of "Technologic" song. All we know is,he's called EVE Stig"!

The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
Mean Coalition
#14 - 2012-04-25 00:25:40 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
gfldex wrote:
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
And that it's already hard enough to form an Assault or HQ fleet... but when you don't have a pool of active players currently in the area doing VG's it's going to make it a lot slower process forming the larger fleets also.


Or the change will force players to min/max assautls and HQs. That would lead to even more ISK/h then what we used to have.


People did this before, the problem is that 1 of the 3 Assault site takes twice as long for normal fleet and there is no blitz fleet taking away this burden like in VGs. HQ is simply to big for complete random fleets. I done a fair share of Logi FCing in HQs(posting late posters myself, helping on bug reports for "You can't lock this, it is feature not a bug, regards CCP." or simply laggy situations for everybody evolved, doing all the reimbursements etc.) and it is a pain to explain the do/don't every 2. site when 1-2 Logis leave and get replaced. Don't compare it to Assaults or VGs, it is a complete other ballgame with the limits in locking and watch list in place, making 10-12 Logis work together as a team quite a bit more complicated. This might shift, providing more players that know the basics, similar to VGs this days, ending up there but there is still a lot more organisation needed. At least compared to normal VG or assault fleets where you simply assume everybody knows what they do, and even if not it is trivial to compensate her mistakes, making smooth runs possible with random people.

Edit: On topic, I won't believe that it takes so much longer for a organized fleet to clear out the sites, however I might admit that the gap between high end and casual incursion might be this big that VGs become pointless over L4 for most. It is not a bad goal to move more dedicated Incursion runners to the higher sites(given the rewards make it attractive), however if this comes at the cost of making VGs unattractive for the casual player it will do a massive damage to the concept of multi player PVE, since it is your set entry point of Incursion PVE and most people that run or take part in random fleets start from there.

The self organizing fleet is already more useful than LFG tools for other MMOs, however this will only be this way as long CCP can motivate players to lead and organize other players, what again needs rewards in place to justify the effort and a solid entry point what VGs represent as we speak.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
Train Wreck.
#15 - 2012-04-25 00:58:56 UTC
Simple nerf for incursions would have been to drop sec status below 0.5 to at least form some story of Concord losing control. Sadly EVE is cloning WOW and pvp is now optional. The ground breaking days of eve dies with incursions and now it's all grind and spiders... I mean space ships.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
Mean Coalition
#16 - 2012-04-25 01:54:47 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Simple nerf for incursions would have been to drop sec status below 0.5 to at least form some story of Concord losing control. Sadly EVE is cloning WOW and pvp is now optional. The ground breaking days of eve dies with incursions and now it's all grind and spiders... I mean space ships.


The ground breaking days of a eve as pvp mmo have ended years ago(wtz, nano/web nerf, etc.). I for myself do miss them.

Incision is actually a good thing since it makes PVE a multi player environment in a MMO. I like the WOW reference, however everybody that did both a lot might know that there are a lot of differences. Actually if you go for the maximum grind factor Incursion can best WOW all day long, since there are no valor point or gear limits and it is actually competitive compared to "please suck a little bit less this time" LFG. Cool

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

Connaght Badasaz
Lewis and Clark Inc.
#17 - 2012-04-25 01:56:46 UTC
Looks like Eve discovered Raiding.

Take arrows in the forehead, never the back

Spark Progenitori
Alcoholocaust.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#18 - 2012-04-25 03:11:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Spark Progenitori
If the intent of nerfing incurisons was to balance the risk/reward for highsec blitzing fleets, then the mechanics should have been changed specific to highsec incursions. Low/nullsec incursion runners had much more risk to deal with, and gave plenty of juicy targets for pvp pilots to shoot. This nerf makes incursions (regardless of sec status or risk) not worth anybody's time or effort, and no longer a social "endgame" of PVE in EVE.
if you want the players of your game to enjoy the game, you have to give them balanced, worthwhile incentives as rewards. "defeating the sansha meanace" is hardly a reward when i could "defeat the serpentis menace" for more isk/hr, for less risk,
Slightly Degotoga
Life in Jail.
#19 - 2012-04-25 03:15:44 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Simple nerf for incursions would have been to drop sec status below 0.5 to at least form some story of Concord losing control. Sadly EVE is cloning WOW and pvp is now optional. The ground breaking days of eve dies with incursions and now it's all grind and spiders... I mean space ships.

Exactly this.

Literally all that had to be done was to lower concord arrival times to that of a .5 in all high sec incursions and presto, no more blinged out nightmare or whatever fleets. Now anyone who runs incursions is just an idiot because they could be making more isk running ridiculously broken l4s missions.

Nicely done CCP.
Liliana Rahl
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#20 - 2012-04-25 03:21:25 UTC
That's just adorable.
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