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Possibly too far with balancing Incursions?

First post First post
Author
Apolyon I
Shadow of ISW
#181 - 2012-04-26 17:49:03 UTC
Miss Yanumano wrote:
Apolyon I wrote:
these hisec bears have been spoiled by CCP for too long.

they're mad because they're in their right place.

if you claim that you're more about community and interactive between players, a bit reduce in isk wouldn't bother you



So what do you have to say to null/low sec Incursion runners that got hit too?

I dont see any nullsec corps complaining.

and since when NPC corps run incursion in nullsec?????
Loysy
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#182 - 2012-04-26 17:52:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Loysy
This is wrong, the 0.0 has always been encouraged for isk.
The high is no good for isk.
Many player no live 0.0, Because, he have no time to play long time and there is quite a constraint.
Only the low sec is very very bad for the isk and very discouraged.
It is a great mistake to discourage all the isk low sec because it can be an interesting pvp.
Need more real isk in blet in low sec. (npc faction, loot meta4, officier, ore)
also, the really profitable incution into low sec, because it is much more dangerous than low sec, he isn't dangerous intro 0.0 in the ally.
Lord MuffloN
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#183 - 2012-04-26 17:54:37 UTC
Apolyon I wrote:
Miss Yanumano wrote:
Apolyon I wrote:
these hisec bears have been spoiled by CCP for too long.

they're mad because they're in their right place.

if you claim that you're more about community and interactive between players, a bit reduce in isk wouldn't bother you



So what do you have to say to null/low sec Incursion runners that got hit too?

I dont see any nullsec corps complaining.

and since when NPC corps run incursion in nullsec?????



Let's try this again, the null/low sec Incursion runners have gone back (Hint: CFC Incursion group is dead now) to running Sanctums/Havens/Hubs solo in a Tengu because it's better ISK/h than Incursions, less risk and cost and we can still hang on comms because we're CFC wide, not just a public group.

Good enough you intellectually dishonest fool with an agenda?
DJ N00B
National Order Of Bastards Yearning
#184 - 2012-04-26 18:22:11 UTC
The truth here is that some fleets could make 160 mil/hr but that is only during peak optimal conditions. We're talking shiny blitz fleet catered to do OTA's, running nothing but OTA's in that hour. having no competition, not having to wait for sites to spawn, and not having to swap anyone out in fleet. How often does that happen? Rarely. Now that is for shield fleets. Legion fleets could make that and more doing NCO's, but again we are talking optimal conditions here.

The reality is that most decently run fleets were making about half that. Pug fleets were making even less. Then when you factor in taking breaks, keeping fleet comp together, site competition, waiting for site spawns, etc etc. All those things drop the isk/hr substantially and it only gets worse during peak times or when there are fewer incursions availble. Then you add in the fact that more and more people were running incursions and this again was already reducing the isk/hr due to more frequent over crowding. So again the reality here is that most incursion runners were only making on average 60-100 mil isk/hour. That is really nothing go all QQing about. There are many other places you can make that kind of isk and more.

I think most people agree that the blitzing fleets making 160/mil an hour needed to stop. Granted again that is only during peak optimal conditions but still, that isk/hour potential is far greater than many other isk earning opportunities in the game. However CCP has gone WAY to far with this nerf.

First off lets talk potential isk/hour. As it stands today, If you were to optimize your fleet to run only NCO's you can do them in about 5min. So in total peak optimal conditions you might be able to make 120 mil isk/hour. The problem with that is your fleet is going to be totally screwed in other sites where nmc's might take you 10min and OTA's will take you much longer than that. So that isk/hour number is rarely going to happen. So even with optimal conditions (shiny fleet, no competition, no breaks/waiting) your maximum isk potential is about 70mil isk/hour. The reality is that you will have breaks etc, so you fleets will only be making about 50-60 mil isk/hour. Now those numbers are for nice shiny/experienced fleets. Pug fleets are going to make half that. The end result here is where are talking about a earnings potential reduction upwards of 50%. Sure, many who run incursions love the community aspect and this is a big part of it. However the fact is that we all need to make isk and these drastic cuts in earning potential is forcing people to make the decision to go elsewhere.

So what has this done.....

- Many of the incursion groups/channels have gone quiet. Experienced incursion runners, as well as a number of fc's, have seen their isk/hour drop so dramatically that they have decided to go do other things in eve because they can make more isk/hour.

- Those who are still interested in running incursions are spending hours trying to find fleets and this includes those with nice shiny ships.

- Those fleets that are running have got wait lists so long that most people end up dropping off before they even get into a fleet, and those people will likely end up just giving up on incursions all together becuase it just takes too long to get in to a fleet.

- PUG fleets are non existant. Again, the isk/hour has dropped so low for these groups that they just can't be bothered with them anymore. Plus, with the added focus fire of npc's, as well as time it takes to remove dps off the field, vanguards have become much more risky for these groups and the risk/reward is far too great for them to be worth doing.

- Without PUG fleets, new pilots/incursion runners no longer have an avenue to get into running incursions. The end result is that the talent pool for pilots will VERY quickly dry up.

The end result of all of this is that CCP has effectively destroyed incursions and the incursion community. You will have a scattering of shiny fleets that might still run vg's as well as some that might move to assaults. For many though, the risk vs reward just isn't worth it to make the move. You'll have the usual suspects that currently run as/hq's that will continue to do so. But, eventually the talent pool will dry up and even those with large and experienced communities will start finding it hard to maintain their fleets with the resulting impact on isk/hour causing many to just give up on incursions all together.

CCP, you stated that incursions were one of the best things to come to eve and that community aspect was something you wanted to maintain. Then you turn around and destroy it. GREAT JOB CCP!

Templar Nato
#185 - 2012-04-26 19:31:19 UTC
Apolyon I wrote:
these hisec bears have been spoiled by CCP for too long.


A good chunk of incursioners live in null sec, myself included.

Apolyon I wrote:
they're mad because they're in their right place.

if you claim that you're more about community and interactive between players, a bit reduce in isk wouldn't bother you


Please read the thread. A lot of us have stated that we would have been fine with a single Nerf (either make the sites longer or reduce the ISK payout per site). Double nerfing incursions has made them a waste of time to run.

Apolyon I wrote:
I dont see any nullsec corps complaining.


Again, please read the thread. A number of people have stated their frustration that low sec and 0.0 Incursions were nerfed as well as the high sec ones.
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
#186 - 2012-04-26 19:56:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tenris Anis
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Gudda wrote:
Even if he wasent black listed. I Got a nightmare. I want to run incurtions. And for the last 2 days i have been on the channels posting my fits joining all the groups and yet NO FLEETS? why ? cause there are none. If you have a incurtion fleet up and running and need a high dps nightmare hit me up! ive been waiting for the last 4 hours for a fleet!

I have a Nightmare, too. How I got it is why I'm blacklisted :D

Butterflies born the day the patch came out haven't even died yet, and everyone is throwing up their hands and acting like it's just the end of incursions. That should tell you just how "fun" incursions really are, when people simply bail out of them as soon as the isk faucet gets turned down.


While I agree, you have to admit the a decent rewards helps to make good content better. Not that incursions are that good content, but they are better content than L4s and should give better isk than l4 imo. Which they not seem to give anymore, which leads me to my call for a mission nerf.

Remove insurance.

Sigurd Sig Hansen
Doomheim
#187 - 2012-04-26 20:07:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigurd Sig Hansen
lol tho

I like how the nullbears qq switched to their true targets after ppl started crying "Incursions r ded".

QQ moar about them lvl 4s guys, keep up the good fight an I bet CCP will care...

Only way theyll actually care is if you quit en masse and put in the reason line "lvl 4s arent in low/null" maybe then theyd care. Seems theyre still all about watch what they do not wwhat they say.

Tenris Anis wrote:
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Gudda wrote:
Even if he wasent black listed. I Got a nightmare. I want to run incurtions. And for the last 2 days i have been on the channels posting my fits joining all the groups and yet NO FLEETS? why ? cause there are none. If you have a incurtion fleet up and running and need a high dps nightmare hit me up! ive been waiting for the last 4 hours for a fleet!

I have a Nightmare, too. How I got it is why I'm blacklisted :D

Butterflies born the day the patch came out haven't even died yet, and everyone is throwing up their hands and acting like it's just the end of incursions. That should tell you just how "fun" incursions really are, when people simply bail out of them as soon as the isk faucet gets turned down.


While I agree, you have to admit the a decent rewards helps to make good content better. Not that incursions are that good content, but they are better content than L4s and should give better isk than l4 imo. Which they seem to give anymore, which leads me to my call for a mission nerf.


QQ missions
*put in incorsions*
QQ Incursions
*Nerf incursions*
QQ Missions
So if they nerf missions guess what is next...
QQ Incursions

While 0.0 guys quietly nom infinite income from tech moons all in the name of "fair".
We dont need YOUR for of fair.

Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game

Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#188 - 2012-04-26 20:25:13 UTC
DJ N00B wrote:

CCP, you stated that incursions were one of the best things to come to eve and that community aspect was something you wanted to maintain. Then you turn around and destroy it. GREAT JOB CCP!


Perhaps they pulled head from ass and realized Incursions were actually one of the worst thing they had ever added to EVE. Also as evidenced by all the whines it was mostly about the risk free fountain of ISK not any community BS.


DJ N00B wrote:

- Those fleets that are running have got wait lists so long that most people end up dropping off before they even get into a fleet, and those people will likely end up just giving up on incursions all together becuase it just takes too long to get in to a fleet.


So there's lots of players waiting to get in an exiting fleet rather than taking the initiative and forming their own with all these others waiting?

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#189 - 2012-04-26 21:05:42 UTC
Xorv wrote:
DJ N00B wrote:

CCP, you stated that incursions were one of the best things to come to eve and that community aspect was something you wanted to maintain. Then you turn around and destroy it. GREAT JOB CCP!


Perhaps they pulled head from ass and realized Incursions were actually one of the worst thing they had ever added to EVE. Also as evidenced by all the whines it was mostly about the risk free fountain of ISK not any community BS.


DJ N00B wrote:

- Those fleets that are running have got wait lists so long that most people end up dropping off before they even get into a fleet, and those people will likely end up just giving up on incursions all together becuase it just takes too long to get in to a fleet.


So there's lots of players waiting to get in an exiting fleet rather than taking the initiative and forming their own with all these others waiting?

If incursion runners where the only ones to ever complain when they had their income nerfed then your point might be valid, but amongst any group there are people who participate for the isk. When the isk is gone they leave. Regardless of how much enjoyment is there, if it doesn't pay the bills it's not worth doing for them. It was obvious if incursions were nerfed this would happen, but it needed to be done. But if it's lower than other isk in highsec then we come to a situation where you are effectively taking a hit by doing them. So you have to choose, PvE that is less boring and more social than other PvE but makes you less (assuming you are somewhat efficient at missions and can beat the 30-40m/h numbers people are giving now) or do more boring PvE but get more out of it and have to do it less to get to the aspects you truly enjoy.

Taking that into account it makes sense that people would leave even if they did like them.
Gudda
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#190 - 2012-04-26 21:14:30 UTC
well i am going to make it my goal to crack the code of incurtions . Drop the time down to 6 minutes per site. Put it up on youtube. And give all you haters the middle finger :D chao bello
Apolyon I
Shadow of ISW
#191 - 2012-04-26 21:15:53 UTC
Templar Nato wrote:



I clearly stated that I have no hard feeling for NS, if CCP overnerf NS incursion, it's their fault.

I totally agree with CCP nerf on hisec incursion
Loysy
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#192 - 2012-04-26 21:18:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Loysy
I like incution, but I do not do without an income / risk appropriate
It was already difficult to get a fleet before, so now it's really unrealistic.
I like the isk for my asset, i no need, i have isk for buy 2000 year accout
And win 300/ 500 day with other account without having too look, if I do not incursion i win 1,5/3B day (with Exaggerating)
ISD LoneLynx
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#193 - 2012-04-26 21:29:47 UTC
Minor deletions. Please be constructive and refrain from personal attacks.

ISD LoneLynx Lieutenant Support Team and Resources [STAR] Interstellar Services Department

FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#194 - 2012-04-26 21:50:04 UTC
Gudda wrote:
well i am going to make it my goal to crack the code of incurtions . Drop the time down to 6 minutes per site. Put it up on youtube. And give all you haters the middle finger :D chao bello

And I will applaud your tenacity and creativity. If you can put together a group that will put in the time to learn how to optimize the new system, you'll deserve every bit of isk you make.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

xVx dreadnaught
Space Telentics Systems Inc
#195 - 2012-04-26 22:03:01 UTC
Apolyon I wrote:

I clearly stated that I have no hard feeling for NS, if CCP overnerf NS incursion, it's their fault.

I totally agree with CCP nerf on hisec incursion


Incursions are incursions. Null, Low or High security systems... they are still the same incursions.

What I have explained and countless others is that there are 3 ways they have been nerfed and they should only have had one set of changes... either mixing up so pure bred fleets like all machs or all legions would work any better than a mixture of BS and T3's... extend the sites in time so blitzing doesn't work. Or reduce payment so the elite fleets wouldn't have as high an incentive to do VG's all day, that maybe they will do Assaults or HQ's instead if they are more profitable.

But they have done all three of these changes and nerfed incursions into the ground.

I was in a fleet tonight doing Assault sites and they have messed with the spawns in those, it took just short of half an hour to do our first Nation Consolidation Network which previously took 20 minutes... we managed to grind the time down to about 25 after getting some luck with the spawns.

I'm not disputing that incursions needed to be altered to deter isk farmers... it's just that an awful lot of regular incurions runners aren't wanting to do them now because they are made harder for less pay.

I mean would you be happy if someone made the C5 sites harder, longer and decreased the pay out on them?
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#196 - 2012-04-26 22:15:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Xorv
xVx dreadnaught wrote:

Incursions are incursions. Null, Low or High security systems... they are still the same incursions.


High Sec Incursions do not have to deal with potential player threats like those in Null and Low, so no they're not the same. Likewise your question regarding C5s, there's substantial risk in operating in Wormholes, there's barely any in High Sec Incursions. But yes there was no need to nerf Null and Low Sec Incursions.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#197 - 2012-04-26 22:37:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Xorv wrote:
xVx dreadnaught wrote:

Incursions are incursions. Null, Low or High security systems... they are still the same incursions.


High Sec Incursions do not have to deal with potential player threats like those in Null and Low, so no they're not the same. Likewise your question regarding C5s, there's substantial risk in operating in Wormholes, there's barely any in High Sec Incursions. But yes there was no need to nerf Null and Low Sec Incursions.

Dunno how many low/null incursions you've done, but people don't typically mess with them. The sov space ones are obviously claimed by whoever holds the area. NPC null ones are just ignored mostly, largely because of the difficulty getting there in the first place. Lowsec ones are often claimed by alliances for some reason, but people don't generally venture through them very much because the HQ systems have sansha camps capable of wiping out your average ~10 person BC gang.

They really aren't bad if you can get your fleet out there in the first place.

And if you do encounter a marauding gang, they still have to be good enough to overcome a high dps/tank logi-supported mostly-battleship fleet.

thhief ghabmoef

xVx dreadnaught
Space Telentics Systems Inc
#198 - 2012-04-26 22:37:54 UTC  |  Edited by: xVx dreadnaught
Xorv wrote:
xVx dreadnaught wrote:

Incursions are incursions. Null, Low or High security systems... they are still the same incursions.


High Sec Incursions do not have to deal with potential player threats like those in Null and Low, so no they're not the same. Likewise your question regarding C5s, there's substantial risk in operating in Wormholes, there's barely any in High Sec Incursions. But yes there was no need to nerf Null and Low Sec Incursions.


Suicide ganking logi's and logi griefing are not risks... Oh thank the stars I never realised how easy we had it.

Fact is in the null and low sec incursions you are set up primarily for PVP and any threat you face you form up a fleet to fight. With your countless scouts that cover all the systems leading into the incursion areas.

Us in hi-sec need to form pug fleets now and again... and even in our established and trusted community some people can turn around and grief people just for the lols or to make a quick bit of pocket change.

So I'd say yes we do take risks... because we're not all part of the same alliance... Also I've done low-sec incursions a couple of times. I know they are a lot more secure than people make out... if they weren't so profitable why are they doing them is the obvious point to make.

As for the C5's i already essplained in another post... They have their system in lockdown before they start farming, camps on every wormhole leading in with bubbles up and most likely the hole sitting on critical. So the chances of them actually being attacked by a force that could do damage to them is highly unlikely. Also to the fact of if someone wanted to attack them they'd have to go through several other wormholes before finding a connection to the C5. Several holes deep. So the chances of a random roaming fleet finding you that far into the rabbit hole it's almost non existent risk.

If someone wants to grief a high-sec incursion fleet, they only have to open up their journal and set destination to the nearest one.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#199 - 2012-04-26 22:43:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Slightly Degotoga wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Simple nerf for incursions would have been to drop sec status below 0.5 to at least form some story of Concord losing control. Sadly EVE is cloning WOW and pvp is now optional. The ground breaking days of eve dies with incursions and now it's all grind and spiders... I mean space ships.

Exactly this.

Literally all that had to be done was to lower concord arrival times to that of a .5 in all high sec incursions and presto, no more blinged out nightmare or whatever fleets. Now anyone who runs incursions is just an idiot because they could be making more isk running ridiculously broken l4s missions.

Nicely done CCP.


As one of the hottest L4 nerf supporters on this subforum (feel free to eve search), I can say that now L4s are almost OK.

Incursions imo were nerfed wrong.

They were meant to be a social aggregation content.

Of course due to Malcanis Law they got monopolized not by the intended players but by super-extra pimp mega farming elites.

The nerfs should have nerfed them, not the average Joes.
What will happen now is that the super extra pimps due to their maxed ships and skills will still be able to farm incursions (at reduced income) but the average players will stop.

This is exactly the opposite of how it should have done: to nerf the pimps while still letting the averages (proportionally taking more time and risks) get > L4 income.

Furthermore, a blanket "all secs" nerf is terrible, those doing incursions outside of hi sec should have not been nerfed. They both cannot use super-pimp plus they have to deal with PvP.
Myz Toyou
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#200 - 2012-04-26 22:43:33 UTC
Just stealing a quote from a different thread:

"Despite the numerous claims that Incursions were all about the social aspect and fleeting up and having fun, nobody wants to run them now that they don't pay as well and people might actually lose ships."