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Combat frigate changes for Inferno

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CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2012-04-23 13:38:16 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Ytterbium
Hello folks,

As mentioned in the ship balancing Dev Blog, Inferno will be the starting point for a much needed ship overhaul. This post is to discuss planned changes for frigates before we move forward with Singularity testing.


We want to start with Tech 1 frigates, then move our way up as time passes, which means:

  • There will be no skill change for Inferno. Your destroyer and battlecruiser skills are safe for now
  • Battlecruisers will have to wait until we have rebalanced frigates and destroyers to have something clean to compare them with


Plans for the frigate class (remember all of this is still WIP for the time being):

  • Split and re-purpose frigates into Combat, Attack, Bombardment and Support roles (includes revamping mining frigates into this)
  • Have a look at Rookie frigates to make them more versatile but less efficient than revamped frigates
  • On the power ladder, tech 1 frigates should be less effective than faction / tech 2, but more forgiving and flexible with their fittings


In this topic we will focus on Combat frigate rebalancing, which affects:

  • Tormentor: role changed from mining frigate to medium range combat vessel
  • Punisher: improved role to fit close-medium range brawler
  • Merlin: overhauled role to fit medium-long range turret platform
  • Incursus: overhauld role to fit close range brawler
  • Rifter: role untouched, it already is made of win and dipped with awesomesauce



Exact changes below (without skills):

TORMENTOR:

  • New bonuses: 10% to small energy turret range and 10% bonus to small energy capacitor use per level
  • Slot layout: 3 H, 3 M, 4 L, 3 turrets, no launchers
  • Fittings: 60 PWG, 140 CPU
  • Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350 / 450 / 400
  • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 280 / 180 s / 1.55
  • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320 / 3.05 / 1180000 / 3.37 s
  • Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
  • Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 40km / 620 / 4
  • Sensor strength: 9 Radar
  • Signature radius: 35


PUNISHER:

  • New bonuses: 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage and 5% bonus to armor resistances per skill level
  • Slot layout: 4 H, 2 M, 4 L, 3 turrets, no launchers
  • Fittings: 55 PWG, 124 CPU
  • Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350 / 500 / 450
  • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 300 / 180 s / 1.66
  • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 / 3.35 / 1047000 / 3.28 s
  • Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
  • Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 25km / 640 / 4
  • Sensor strength: 9 Radar
  • Signature radius: 37


MERLIN:

  • New bonuses: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage and 10% to small hybrid turret range per level
  • Slot layout: 3 H, 4 M, 3 L, 3 turrets, no launchers
  • Fittings: 40 PWG, 180 CPU
  • Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 500 / 350 / 350
  • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 260 / 180 s / 1.44
  • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 / 3.7 / 997000 / 3.45 s
  • Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
  • Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 50km / 580 / 5
  • Sensor strength: 11 Gravimetric
  • Signature radius: 39


INCURSUS:

  • New bonuses: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage and 10% bonus to armor repairer effectiveness per level
  • Slot layout: 3 H, 3 M, 4 L, 3 turrets, no launchers
  • Fittings: 45 PWG, 135 CPU
  • Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 400 / 450 / 500
  • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 280 / 180 s / 1.55
  • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 340 / 3.15 / 1028000 / 3.0 s
  • Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 / 5
  • Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 600 / 4
  • Sensor strength: 9 Magnetometric
  • Signature radius: 42


RIFTER:

  • Unchanged bonuses
  • Unchanged Slot layout: 4 H, 3 M, 3 L, 3 turrets, 2 launchers
  • Unchanged fittings: 37 PWG, 125 CPU
  • Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 450 / 400 / 400
  • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 240 / 180 s / 1.33
  • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 355 / 3.19 / 1067000 / 3.19 s
  • Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
  • Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 22.5km / 660 / 4
  • Sensor strength: 8 Ladar
  • Signature radius: 35




That's all for now, constructive comments are welcome Blink

02/05 UPDATE HERE!
eidenjunior
Perkone
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-04-23 13:54:43 UTC  |  Edited by: eidenjunior
Can you take and inclute what they are change from?

Quote:

New bonuses: 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage(-10% cap use of Energy guns) and 5% bonus to armor resistances per skill level
Slot layout: 4 H, 2 M, 4 L, 3 turrets, no launchers
Fittings: 55(45) PWG, 124(115) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350 / 500 / 450(391/469/391)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 300 / 180 s / 1.66 (425/281.25 s/1.51)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 / 3.35 / 1047000 / 3.28 s (287/4.21/1,047,000 kg/x)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 25km / 640 / 4
Sensor strength: 9 Radar
Signature radius: 37

Quote:

so, in short:

+dmg/dps
+ speed
+agilily
+scan res
+ less sig res
+ more pwg and cpu
+base EHP
+cap per sec
-cap amount
-locked targets


you are giveing it more dps(good), but you are nurfing the cap amount(why?)
Lorginir
#3 - 2012-04-23 13:57:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Lorginir
mmm... Merlin as an example of Caldari ship still have no speed, no dps, no ehp, dead capacitor and becoming even worse with rigs. Why I'm not surprised...

Licensed 07.06.2010 R.I.P 10.06.2012 nevermore.
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-04-23 14:04:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsubutai
Will comment on the frigate changes separately, but one thing that jumped out at me was:

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Any kind of armor / shield rig that promotes passive tanking now has a penalty to ship velocity instead of signature radius. Any kind of armor / shield rig that promotes active tanking now has a penalty to ship signature radius instead of velocity. Penalty amount themselves are not changing.

Rigs that increase resistances towards specific damage types are useful for both active and buffer tanks. Which penalty would they get - speed or sig?
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#5 - 2012-04-23 14:12:51 UTC
entirely forgot about the "TORMENTOR"

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#6 - 2012-04-23 14:15:08 UTC
The rig penalty changes are huge. Minmatar shield tanks just had a giant dump taken on them.
Ampoliros
Aperture Harmonics
#7 - 2012-04-23 14:17:08 UTC
Tsubutai wrote:
Will comment on the frigate changes separately, but one thing that jumped out at me was:

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Any kind of armor / shield rig that promotes passive tanking now has a penalty to ship velocity instead of signature radius. Any kind of armor / shield rig that promotes active tanking now has a penalty to ship signature radius instead of velocity. Penalty amount themselves are not changing.

Rigs that increase resistances towards specific damage types are useful for both active and buffer tanks. Which penalty would they get - speed or sig?


+1 to this question.
Max Teranous
Galactic Deep Space Industries
Brave Collective
#8 - 2012-04-23 14:17:50 UTC
I suggest you split the rig changes into a seperate thread from the frigate rebalance - the rig changes are huge, and affect just about every sub cap ship type to one extent or another. That way you can get more focused feedback on each change in it's own thread.

Max Cool
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#9 - 2012-04-23 14:20:08 UTC
Good point on the rig, will split that up before it becomes a threadnought, want to keep comments separate.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#10 - 2012-04-23 14:28:09 UTC
Also - why F&I and not the test server thread?
Cailais
The Red Pill Taker Group
#11 - 2012-04-23 14:31:09 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • Split and re-purpose frigates into Combat, Attack, Bombardment and Support roles (includes revamping mining frigates into this)

    • In this topic we will focus on Combat frigate rebalancing, which affects:

    • Tormentor: role changed from mining frigate to medium range combat vessel
    • Punisher: improved role to fit close-medium range brawler
    • Merlin: overhauled role to fit medium-long range turret platform
    • Incursus: overhauld role to fit close range brawler
    • Rifter: role untouched, it already is made of win and dipped with awesomesauce




    The idea of 'Combat', 'Attack', 'Bombardment' and 'Support' sound cool words but...

    1. They're then not referenced with respect to the ships noted (e.g a Punisher is referred to as a 'brawler').
    2. What differentiates the term 'Combat' from 'Attack'?

    If you want to describe how you're changing these ships for specific or general roles I think it would be useful for you to have a defined nomenclature of terms. This would aid future discussion.

    C.
    Commander Slavin
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #12 - 2012-04-23 14:31:35 UTC
    MERLIN:

    New bonuses: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage and 10% to small hybrid turret range per level
    Slot layout: 3 H, 4 M, 3 L, 3 turrets, no launchers
    Fittings: 40 PWG, 180 CPU
    Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 500 / 350 / 350
    Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 260 / 180 s / 1.44
    Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 / 3.7 / 997000 / 3.45 s
    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
    Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 50km / 580 / 5
    Sensor strength: 11 Gravimetric
    Signature radius: 39

    Please no.

    Im totally fine with making the merlin a 100% gun boat, but the best thing about the frigate is that 5% to shield resistances per level. Its why this ship is my favourite T1 frigate, its why I use it for 1v1s and its why im worried about the change.

    Can we just have the 5% to damage and 5% to shield resistances?
    Callic Veratar
    #13 - 2012-04-23 14:37:14 UTC
    Zarnak Wulf wrote:
    Also - why F&I and not the test server thread?


    Because these are ideas.
    Kiyarii Oskold
    Give my 11percent back
    #14 - 2012-04-23 14:43:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiyarii Oskold
    Commander Slavin wrote:
    My HG Crystals, POSed-Tengu-backed '1' v 1 T1 frigate backboneCryCryCry
    FYP

    That said, racial tanking bonuses are nice as a theme to keep/enhance.
    El Geo
    Warcrows
    THE OLD SCHOOL
    #15 - 2012-04-23 14:46:38 UTC  |  Edited by: El Geo
    i dont know about all this, i mean the rifter is great for training but the good frigate pilots mostly use the others and will kick rifters az all day long, buffing the others and leaving the rifter alone wont help that, besides, you just buffed the destroyers (which actually needed it) what are you going to do now, make them weak again by buffing up every other ship?

    i still think 'rebalancing' isnt needed, just becuase people dont learn how to use the ships and just complain instead about anything that beats them being overpowered....

    CDIA Based overlay resource for After Effects 6

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    Commander Slavin
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #16 - 2012-04-23 14:46:53 UTC
    Kiyarii Oskold wrote:
    Commander Slavin wrote:
    My HG Crystals, POSed-Tengu-backed '1' v 1 T1 frigate backboneCryCryCry
    FYP

    That said, racial tanking bonuses are nice as a theme to keep/enhance.


    1v1s are non bonused and I have never used crystals. I think someone might be butt hurt. But this doesnt make my post any less valid
    5antamus
    TOHA Heavy Industries
    Blades of Grass
    #17 - 2012-04-23 15:08:04 UTC
    Commander Slavin wrote:


    Im totally fine with making the merlin a 100% gun boat, but the best thing about the frigate is that 5% to shield resistances per level. Its why this ship is my favourite T1 frigate, its why I use it for 1v1s and its why im worried about the change.

    Can we just have the 5% to damage and 5% to shield resistances?


    this
    Duchess Starbuckington
    Doomheim
    #18 - 2012-04-23 15:58:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
    Ok, couple of points:
    - Merlin becoming a pure gunboat: long, long overdue. But: doesn't this leave Caldari pretty much without a brawler? The Kestrel certainly doesn't fit the bill, unless you're planning on reworking the Bantam or something into this...
    - Mining frigates becoming combat frigates (assuming this extends beyond the tormentor?) - well that sounds like fun. The revamped Tormentor looks great and I'll likely be trying that out.
    - What about the tier 1 frigates? The Condor/Executioner/Atron and Slasher really need a bit of a buff to be worth using.

    And mostly a question that's been on my mind since the dev blog on balancing: this "bombardment" role has been very vaguely described, besides the fact it seems to be mainly(entirely?) missile boats. How exactly does it differ from the other offensive roles other than the fact it seems missile rather than turret based?
    Marlona Sky
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #19 - 2012-04-23 16:02:23 UTC
    I like the direction for sure. I will try and comment a bit later when I have the time. Keep up the good initiative CCP!
    Reppyk
    The Black Shell
    #20 - 2012-04-23 16:14:38 UTC
    My poor merlin. RIP, heavy tackler. Cry

    I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

    Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
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