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Combat frigate changes for Inferno

First post
Author
Hashmallum
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#121 - 2012-04-24 15:19:26 UTC
Rawls Canardly wrote:
Downloading now. If this "great re-balance" is just the 5 frigates mentioned, I'm going to fly to Reykjavik and personally defecate on their doorstep.


Escalation doesn't have these updates...
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#122 - 2012-04-24 15:21:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Iria Ahrens
Tormentor should fly drones. In fanfest it was said holes would be closed but Amarr has a major drone hole in t1 frigates. And a drone frigate would not need the cap bonus and range bonus to turrets. Amarr is the second drone race, so we should definitely close the t1 drone hole.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.

Rawls Canardly
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2012-04-24 15:21:30 UTC
Hashmallum wrote:
Rawls Canardly wrote:
Downloading now. If this "great re-balance" is just the 5 frigates mentioned, I'm going to fly to Reykjavik and personally defecate on their doorstep.


Escalation doesn't have these updates...

Don't rain on my parade, vagrant!
Creat Posudol
German Oldies
#124 - 2012-04-24 15:29:54 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Anxiir wrote:
I still don't understand why the Incursus is being compared to the Rifter. it should be compared to the Kestrel, Breacher and Inquisitor. The Tristan is the Gallente equivalent to the Rifter.

Tristan - Rifter - Punisher - Merlin

Why is a mining frigate being buffed at all? Why not the Inquisitor?

Seems an odd choice IMO.


I'm assuming the Tristan will fall under either the Bombardment role since it is the stealth bomber base.

Actually the Tristan is the perfect example of the brawler, with the slight drawback that it can't actually stay close to it's target unless it's bigger. It's just SOOOO slow...

Elder Ozzian wrote:
Will there be a ship assigned for mining newbies?
Not as such, but there will be an ORE ship (probably roughly frigate sized) to take over for the racial mining frigates. This is much more in line with the general concept, and I like it :D

Max Teranous wrote:
OK, had a ponder.
OK for using that phrase alone you got a like. Just brilliant, can't stop smiling Straight
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
#125 - 2012-04-24 15:58:37 UTC
Creat Posudol wrote:

Elder Ozzian wrote:
Will there be a ship assigned for mining newbies?
Not as such, but there will be an ORE ship (probably roughly frigate sized) to take over for the racial mining frigates. This is much more in line with the general concept, and I like it :D


Yes! Get rid of factional mining frigates and cruisers and give us a ORE mining frigate!
Callic Veratar
#126 - 2012-04-24 16:23:06 UTC
Hashmallum wrote:
The Incursus has had 3 mid slots for a while. Also, the CPU has been buffed from a base of 110 to 135 (+25). Looks like a simple typo but the slot changes are incorrect. I wonder what other corrections need to be made? I just noticed the Incursus because I fly one and haven't had any experience in the other frigates listed so I won't comment on those.


I updated my post, thanks for the check. There's probably a few more mistakes in there, but I was trying to get it done fast, so it wouldn't be lost too far past the first page.

Creat Posudol wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Anxiir wrote:
I still don't understand why the Incursus is being compared to the Rifter. it should be compared to the Kestrel, Breacher and Inquisitor. The Tristan is the Gallente equivalent to the Rifter.

Tristan - Rifter - Punisher - Merlin

Why is a mining frigate being buffed at all? Why not the Inquisitor?

Seems an odd choice IMO.


I'm assuming the Tristan will fall under either the Bombardment role since it is the stealth bomber base.

Actually the Tristan is the perfect example of the brawler, with the slight drawback that it can't actually stay close to it's target unless it's bigger. It's just SOOOO slow...


All of the frigates are being changed (even the Rifter is getting a relatively small buff). The Incursus is being compared to the Rifter because the new Incursus will be on the same level as the Rifter. The Kestrel, Breacher, and Inquisitor will likely be bombardment frigates as they're missile platforms. The mining frigates are being buffed because they're not going to be mining frigates anymore.

The Tristan may be rolled up with the bombardment platforms, but it could also be put under the Assault category. Hopefully Ytterbium will post the other 3 categories soon.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#127 - 2012-04-24 16:49:26 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Ytterbium
Great comments in here, let's address some of them.


  • MERLIN: we can see how the loss of the shield resistance bonus poses a problem to this hull; we first wanted to get feedback on a possible medium-long range overhaul for that ship, but as people mentioned here, that's very difficult to achieve for a slow frigate or even for any kind of platform using small weapons in the first place. Back to the drawing board!

  • CAPACITORS: also fair points regarding capacitors, in some cases (Punisher especially) we initially wanted capacitor to be the drawback of these frigates, but it may be quite difficult for them to do their jobs while being affected by neuts. We'll iterate on that.

  • TORMENTOR: the point of this ship is to give a more all rounded, comfortable hull to use for engagements than the Punisher, which explains the range and quite significantly increased fittings. This is still up for constructive discussion as well.

  • ONLY 5 SHIPS?!: unfortunately for Inferno, yes. We initially wanted to revamp all frigates for this release, however problem is we are lacking Dev power at the moment (I am assigned to other projects as well, and Tallest is playing daddy with his twins Twisted ) so yep that is lame, but sadly we will have to cope with that for now.

  • MINING SHIPS & TORMENTOR CHANGES: the plan is to completely change mining ships into more interesting hulls, and possibly add a basic mining role to Rookie ships and/or bit more advanced one for a special ORE frigate. Since we can't do much more than 5 frigates for Inferno, that means the other mining frigates will stay that way until we overhaul them, hopefully to be touched soon after Inferno.



Also, some players have expressed issues understanding where we are going without having a more accurate picture of the other frigates, allow us to give you a glimpse of things to come.


  • COMBAT FRIGATES: have a balanced damage / resilience / speed ratio next to the other frigates. Includes the Tormentor, Punisher, Merlin, Incursus and Rifter.

  • ATTACK FRIGATES: in general faster than the other frigates, with good damage, suited for interception or just damage dealing, but less resilient than combat frigates. Includes the Executioner (turret ship), Bantam (turret ship), Atron (turret ship), Navitas (dedicated drone ship), Slasher (turret ship) and Burst (TBD, possibly drone ship if role doesn't conflict with Navitas)

  • BOMBARDMENT FRIGATES: classification is mainly cosmetic, not much different role wise than Combat / Attack frigates. Mainly use missiles, speed / EHP between Attack and Combat frigates and depending on their individual purpose. Is made of the Inquisitor, Condor, Kestrel, Tristan and Breacher. Supposedly being split up by two versions, those that are close range based with high damage (rockets) and the others being more of a medium range platforms (and thus light missile based).

  • SUPPORT FRIGATES: split in two, first, the purely scanning frigates - Magnate, Heron, Imicus, Probe - and EW frigates - Crucifier, Griffin, Imicus, Probe. All need a boost, but their role should not be changed much.



Remember, theses classifications and frigate affiliations are still likely to change, and are mainly used to help us sort them out for now. These are just concept changes still, there will be other discussion threads for them specifically, so don't freak out Blink
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#128 - 2012-04-24 17:13:15 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
  • MERLIN: we can see how the loss of the shield resistance bonus poses a problem to this hull; we first wanted to get feedback on a possible medium-long range overhaul for that ship, but as people mentioned here, that's very difficult to achieve for a slow frigate or even for any kind of platform using small weapons in the first place. Back to the drawing board!
  • Keeping the heavy tackler/cheap merlin is easy : it needs a res bonus and a spare high slot. If you really want to make it a pure hybrid boat, keep it exactly like it's atm, but remove the 2 launchers points and give it a turret point.

    As I said, "sniping fregates" will never work. 40km isnt that much, and any bc/bs can track you at this distance.

    I'm deeply disapointed in the bonus too. Why always the same things ? Give them something unique.
    +5% shield/level
    -5% ennemy efficiency of webs/level
    -5% efficiency of ennemy jammers/damps/painters /level
    +5% of the web factor/level (little vigilant ! yes !)

    Etc.

    I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

    Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !

    Bouh Revetoile
    In Wreck we thrust
    #129 - 2012-04-24 17:23:55 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Navitas)

    BOMBARDMENT FRIGATES: classification is mainly cosmetic, not much different role wise than Combat / Attack frigates. Mainly use missiles, speed / EHP between Attack and Combat frigates and depending on their individual purpose. Is made of the Inquisitor, Condor, Kestrel, Tristan and Breacher. Supposedly being split up by two versions, those that are close range based with high damage (rockets) and the others being more of a medium range platforms (and thus light missile based).




    Nooooo !! :'(
    My poor poor tristan, going to caldarize more... :'(
    Please, tell me gallente won't have a whole missile line. :'(

    I have arguments : secondary weapon system of gallente is already drones, they absolutely don't a third weapon system ! And missiles are so much caldari... Give us a rail plateform maybe ? Or leave it with its split weapon system ? Maybe a more shieldy blaster boat (with more med slots than low slots ; could also be a combat ewar ship that way) ?

    BTW, you swaped Maulus for Imicus.
    Danel Tosh
    Nocturnal Reconnaissance and Manufacturing
    Eve Engineering
    #130 - 2012-04-24 17:26:02 UTC
    If I rembember correctly bombers will be in for a redesign. So can we expect a redesign of thier tech 1 counterparts with the inferno expansion?
    Ganthrithor
    GoonWaffe
    Goonswarm Federation
    #131 - 2012-04-24 17:27:20 UTC
    Just keep in mind that the Dramiel is pretty much the only "t1" frigate that's viable outside of super-close range scenarios. This is due to it's insane speed and ability to fit a decent tank. All the other frigates are too slow, too fragile, or both, and can't survive at mid ranges at all when any ships between BS and frigate size are on the field.

    I don't think you want to make T1 frigates that are as powerful as Dramiels, though, so best gear them towards close-range bullet-dodging :)

    As I said before, I think you could also afford to throw some bigger stats / bonuses at frigates than other classes of ship-- they're so weak to begin with and are typically flown by newer players. As long as their T2 equivalents are still "better," I see no reason not to give T1 frigates a pretty big set of buffs.
    Marcel Devereux
    Aideron Robotics
    #132 - 2012-04-24 17:48:21 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Great comments in here, let's address some of them.


    • ONLY 5 SHIPS?!: unfortunately for Inferno, yes. We initially wanted to revamp all frigates for this release, however problem is we are lacking Dev power at the moment (I am assigned to other projects as well, and Tallest is playing daddy with his twins Twisted ) so yep that is lame, but sadly we will have to cope with that for now.



    If you need some help I can stand in for Tallest (just not as tall). What do you want me to work on first?
    Ganthrithor
    GoonWaffe
    Goonswarm Federation
    #133 - 2012-04-24 17:56:46 UTC
    Can I be CCP Shortest? I really am short.

    e: I don't think I look as good in a Quafe shirt as guard though :\
    Shandir
    Indigo Archive
    #134 - 2012-04-24 18:11:22 UTC
    Ganthrithor wrote:
    Just keep in mind that the Dramiel is pretty much the only "t1" frigate that's viable outside of super-close range scenarios. This is due to it's insane speed and ability to fit a decent tank. All the other frigates are too slow, too fragile, or both, and can't survive at mid ranges at all when any ships between BS and frigate size are on the field.

    I don't think you want to make T1 frigates that are as powerful as Dramiels, though, so best gear them towards close-range bullet-dodging :)

    As I said before, I think you could also afford to throw some bigger stats / bonuses at frigates than other classes of ship-- they're so weak to begin with and are typically flown by newer players. As long as their T2 equivalents are still "better," I see no reason not to give T1 frigates a pretty big set of buffs.


    If you gave those frigates a smaller sig radius, and/or a higher speed, they'd be able to counter the lower tracking at range.
    Whereas close range frigates would have high tracking/agility, but a relatively larger sig.

    This would make long-range frigates better at surviving when targeted by a foe other than the one they're orbiting. Close range frigates, are obviously better built for high-dps and getting out.
    Cameron Zero
    Sebiestor Tribe
    #135 - 2012-04-24 18:16:27 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

    • COMBAT FRIGATES: have a balanced damage / resilience / speed ratio next to the other frigates. Includes the Tormentor, Punisher, Merlin, Incursus and Rifter.

    • ATTACK FRIGATES: in general faster than the other frigates, with good damage, suited for interception or just damage dealing, but less resilient than combat frigates. Includes the Executioner (turret ship), Bantam (turret ship), Atron (turret ship), Navitas (dedicated drone ship), Slasher (turret ship) and Burst (TBD, possibly drone ship if role doesn't conflict with Navitas)

    • BOMBARDMENT FRIGATES: classification is mainly cosmetic, not much different role wise than Combat / Attack frigates. Mainly use missiles, speed / EHP between Attack and Combat frigates and depending on their individual purpose. Is made of the Inquisitor, Condor, Kestrel, Tristan and Breacher. Supposedly being split up by two versions, those that are close range based with high damage (rockets) and the others being more of a medium range platforms (and thus light missile based).

    • SUPPORT FRIGATES: split in two, first, the purely scanning frigates - Magnate, Heron, Imicus, Probe - and EW frigates - Crucifier, Griffin, Imicus, Probe. All need a boost, but their role should not be changed much.



    What, no Vigil? Sad

    "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. …"

    Creat Posudol
    German Oldies
    #136 - 2012-04-24 18:17:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Creat Posudol
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    SUPPORT FRIGATES: split in two, first, the purely scanning frigates - Magnate, Heron, Imicus, Probe - and EW frigates - Crucifier, Griffin, Imicus, Probe. All need a boost, but their role should not be changed much.

    Uhm, the Imicus and Probe can't be a "purely scanning frigate" and "EW frigate". I'm just gonna assume that's a typo and you meant to list the Maulus as the Gallente EW frig (and Vigil, repsectively) Roll
    Iria Ahrens
    Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
    #137 - 2012-04-24 18:18:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Iria Ahrens
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • TORMENTOR: the point of this ship is to give a more all rounded, comfortable hull to use for engagements than the Punisher, which explains the range and quite significantly increased fittings. This is still up for constructive discussion as well.

  • COMBAT FRIGATES: have a balanced damage / resilience / speed ratio next to the other frigates. Includes the Tormentor, Punisher, Merlin, Incursus and Rifter.


  • If this is the vision, I'll say again Drones. Drone ships are by definition well rounded comfortable hulls. They are very flexible and can accommodate many roles because the mid and high slots can be multipurposed. Scanners, neuts, ew, salvagers, codebreakers, and such that normally are impossible to fit on a combat ship without killing the dps are fine on a drone ship. Also, Drone frigates can often, in PVE at least, operate from beyond turret range of frigates to in-your-face range.

    And again Amarr need the drone hole plugged. Amarr use drones even more than missiles, so the hole should be plugged in T1 frigates since it is silly to have a T2 drone frig, T1 and T2 Cruisers that use drones as primary damage, and no T1 counterpart frigate.

    I'm also going to agree with an above poster. Gallante are the primary drone race. There is something wrong with giving them a dedicated missile frig. Especially when drones are just fine. This is paving the way to create a Missile hole in the Gallante line. Since it is silly to have a t1 dedicated missile ship, then no dedicated missile boats in higher classes. Stealth bombers are an exception, so there is no need fill a hole there. I know we just introduced cool missile effects, but there is no need to put missiles ships in every race just to show them off.

    edit- Didn't mean to be rude. Thank you Ytterbium for attending this thread and taking our comments seriously.

    My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.

    Andrea Griffin
    #138 - 2012-04-24 18:20:34 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium - Thank you so much for reading through the thread and taking everyone's comments into consideration. ♥
    Shin Dari
    Covert Brigade
    #139 - 2012-04-24 18:23:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Shin Dari
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Great comments in here, let's address some of them

    [list
  • MERLIN: we can see how the loss of the shield resistance bonus poses a problem to this hull; we first wanted to get feedback on a possible medium-long range overhaul for that ship, but as people mentioned here, that's very difficult to achieve for a slow frigate or even for any kind of platform using small weapons in the first place. Back to the drawing board!
  • Thanks for replying CCP Ytterbium. I want to give you my perspective on the whole ships lines thing
    My primary advice is to give all Caldari ships (all lines) the racial resistance bonus

    Caldari Combat (Merlin): CCP seems to want them to use hybrids (read railguns). This is quite difficult, the current optimal range bonus isn't good enough to make railguns work. The T1 Caldari ships of this line need a gimmic -> giving them very good sensors so that they can lock on first from longer range and making them very hard to jam.

    Caldari Attack (Bantam): The attack definition seems to suggest high speed blasters? Maybe an combination of an active tanking bonus and a resistance bonus? This would make them attrition brawlers / tackle.

    Caldari Bombardment (Condor, Kestrel): Beside the racial resistance bonus, the other bonus should be a ROF bonus for the close range models (DPS) and a general damage bonus for the long range model (alpha)

    Caldari Support (Heron, Griffin): Please add a bonus for ECM drones for the T2 EW sub-line.
    stg slate
    Pandemic Horde Inc.
    Pandemic Horde
    #140 - 2012-04-24 18:24:45 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Great comments in here, let's address some of them.

  • MINING SHIPS & TORMENTOR CHANGES: the plan is to completely change mining ships into more interesting hulls, and possibly add a basic mining role to Rookie ships and/or bit more advanced one for a special ORE frigate. Since we can't do much more than 5 frigates for Inferno, that means the other mining frigates will stay that way until we overhaul them, hopefully to be touched soon after Inferno.
  • [/list]



    If you revamp the tormentor in this pass then Amarr new players will be entirely without a mining frigate for a while.

    I wouldn't do that only knowing the then rest of the update 'hopefully will come soon'.