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Combat frigate changes for Inferno

First post
Author
Lord Haur
Star Frontiers
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#21 - 2012-04-23 16:15:47 UTC
Tormentor: Role change seems nice, but why not do all mining frigates at once? Now you're going to have newbies wondering why their race dosen't have a mining frigate but the others do.

Punisher: Ehhh, should compare better against the (pre-change) rifter, as for the new rifter, see below.

Merlin: Gun hominization: good. Damage for resist bonus, not sold yet.

Incursus: Falloff bonus was kinda nice, but repair bonus should be interesting.

Rifter: Why the "best" frigate needs a ~15% bonus to hp with only a 3% reduction in cap buffer, I don't know
Ines Fy
#22 - 2012-04-23 16:25:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Ines Fy
Just a reminder. Please don't forget frigs have also a role you are forgetting: open cynos for caps!

We use some frigs with high CPU + big cargo space to open cynos to move our caps arround. Please do not destroy CPU or cargo space of those frigs during these changes, or you will have the fury of every capital pilot directed to you soon!

Big smile


Just dreaming, but maybe the frig that will fill the role of mining can also fill this role and have a small bonus for cyno activities???
Andrea Griffin
#23 - 2012-04-23 16:28:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Griffin
Not fond of making the Merlin a gun-only ship. I made a long-ish post about it elsewhere, if you're interested:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=998555#post998555

If not, never fear - tl;dr:
* Ship homogenization (all combat frigs are now gun boats - boring)
* Split weapon systems with rockets allows some damage selection (now only Winmatar can choose damage types)
* Players willing to skill multiple weapons systems get rewarded (not every ship has to be low skill point friendly)

That extra 5% resists per level was a huge reason the ship was viable in the first place. It's been changed to be a faster and more agile long range gunboat, and that's nice, but I'm not convinced that it is a good enough trade.

Combine with the rig changes (buffer / resist rigs making a ship slower) and the terrible performance of active shield tanking on frigates in general (especially now with the resist bonus removed), and the Merlin seems to lose either way if wants to field any kind of tank above and beyond an MSE.

Additionally - a worse capacitor, with an extra gun sucking up cap. I'm pretty sad about the Merlin. It's quickly going from the top of my list of frigates to the absolute bottom.

Have you had some time to test these changes on your local development environments? If you have, what have your experiences been? Does it work as well in practice as it does in theory? I'm skeptical but maybe it works better than I'm expecting.

Are the other mining frigates going to be included in this first revamp, or is the Tormentor the only one being given a combat role as well?
Callic Veratar
#24 - 2012-04-23 16:42:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Callic Veratar
The changes from the original are in brackets.

TORMENTOR:

  • New bonuses: 10% to small energy turret range (new) and 10% bonus to small energy capacitor use per level (new)
  • Slot layout: 3 H (+1), 3 M (+2), 4 L (+1), 3 turrets (+1), no launchers
  • Fittings: 60 PWG (+45), 140 CPU
  • Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350 (+232) / 450 (+207) / 400 (+165)
  • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 280 (+155) / 180s (+86.25) / 1.55 (+0.22)
  • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320 (+19) / 3.05 (-1.41) / 1180000 / 3.37s (?)
  • Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 (-5) / 0 (-5)
  • Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 40km (+15) / 620 (-110) / 4 (-1)
  • Sensor strength: 9 Radar (+4)
  • Signature radius: 35 (-10)


PUNISHER:

  • New bonuses: 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage (new) and 5% bonus to armor resistances per skill level
  • Slot layout: 4 H, 2 M, 4 L, 3 turrets, no launchers
  • Fittings: 55 PWG (+10), 124 (+9) CPU
  • Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350 (-41) / 500 (+31) / 450 (+59)
  • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 300 (-125) / 180 s (-101.25) / 1.66 (+0.15)
  • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 (-43) / 3.35 (-0.86) / 1047000 / 3.28s (?)
  • Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
  • Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 25km / 640 (-30) / 4 (-1)
  • Sensor strength: 9 Radar
  • Signature radius: 37 (-1)


MERLIN:

  • New bonuses: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage (new) and 10% to small hybrid turret range per level
  • Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 4 M, 3 L (+1), 3 turrets (+1), no launchers (-2)
  • Fittings: 40 PWG (+5), 180 CPU (-5)
  • Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 500 (+31) / 350 (-1) / 350 (+37)
  • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 260 (+90) / 180 s (-54.38) / 1.44 (-0.05)
  • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 (+42) / 3.7 (-0.384 / 997000 / 3.45 s (?)
  • Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
  • Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 50km (+20) / 580 (+30) / 5 (+1)
  • Sensor strength: 11 Gravimetric
  • Signature radius: 39 (-1)


INCURSUS:

  • New bonuses: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage and 10% bonus to armor repairer effectiveness per level (new)
  • Slot layout: 3 H, 3 M, 4 L (+2), 3 turrets, no launchers
  • Fittings: 45 PWG (+11), 135 CPU (+25)
  • Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 400 (+87) / 450 (+82) / 500 (+132)
  • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 280 (-45) / 180 s (-54.38) / 1.55 (+0.16)
  • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 340 (-4) / 3.15 (+0.005) / 1028000 / 3.0 s (?)
  • Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 / 5
  • Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km (-7.5) / 600 (-20) / 4 (+1)
  • Sensor strength: 9 Magnetometric
  • Signature radius: 42 (-2)


RIFTER:

  • Bonuses: 5% bonus to Small Projectile Turret damage and 7.5% bonus to tracking per level
  • Slot layout: 4 H, 3 M, 3 L, 3 turrets, 2 launchers
  • Fittings: 37 PWG, 125 CPU
  • Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 450 (+59) / 400 (+49) / 400 (+64)
  • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 240 (-10) / 180 s (-7.5) / 1.33s
  • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 355 (+2) / 3.19 / 1067000 / 3.19 s (?)
  • Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
  • Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 22.5km / 660 / 4
  • Sensor strength: 8 Ladar
  • Signature radius: 35
Drew Solaert
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2012-04-23 16:43:21 UTC
I need that incursus in my life, right now. RIGHT NOW.

I lied :o

zealot shakree
30plus
Goonswarm Federation
#26 - 2012-04-23 16:46:13 UTC
Since you seem to be completely clueless (ccp), as usual, how about you spend less time theorizing how to re-balance things you have no experience with whatsoever. You spend some time actually playing this mess of a game you created (but has so much potential) before you start radically changing things.
Joe D'Trader
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2012-04-23 16:57:53 UTC
I for one look forward to what the Tristian becomes if this is what you are doing to the Incursus and Tormentor.
Illectroculus Defined
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-04-23 17:00:41 UTC
Before you do this can you change the Caldari 'Cashflow For Capsuleers' tutorial arc to reward a Kestrel instead of a Merlin? I see caldari newbies spending a lot of time training railguns early on because two of the 3 combat ships they get given (Merling and Cormorant) are railgun focussed. Switch them to a kestrel and they'll get the message about missiles and caldari.

(and I never understood why the Gallente noobs get given a tristan , I mean it's a great ship, but it makes gallente newbies train missile skills which rarely get used after they upgrade, better to put them in an Incursus)
Guillome Renard
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#29 - 2012-04-23 17:05:48 UTC
Reppyk wrote:
My poor merlin. RIP, heavy tackler. Cry


QFT.

Frankly, prior to this, each race had a frigate hull that had a good role in PvP that newer pilots could get into.

Gallente had the Incursus, a primo DPS machine even if it was a bit fragile. It's definitely not fragile anymore but you have to fly it up the tailpipe of whatever you're shooting at. I'm vOv on this: welcome to blasters generally. 50% armor rep bonus, while I love it as a gallente pilot, is kind of sick.

Amarr had the Punisher, Brick DPS. Now it has the Punisher, Brick DPS+. That's cool.

Minmatar had the Rifter, flexible hotrod of the frigate world. It still has that, though a little more minmatary now that it falls apart more quickly.

And Caldari had the Merlin. One of the tankiest things in the frigate line up, with a very flexible mid-slot selection which made it a primo tackler. The shield resistance bonus was the key to whole ship. Now the Merlin has a role as a frigate-sized sniper for wolfpacks, which I can respect except that they already have the Kestrel for that, and the Merlin could already serve in that role. Without more context for these changes it looks very much like a very important role has been completely stripped from the Caldari lineup and frigates in general. (The punisher just can't brick tackle the way the merlin could.)

I also agree that taking away the Amarrian mining frigate without giving it an alternative, and leaving other races mining frigates intact is especially poor form. The Arbitrator is the Amarr pilot's next mining ship and let's face it, mining drones suck.

You've basically told Amarrian industrial pilots: You should have rolled Caldari, ha ha.

I would suggest you reconsider the Merlin and how pilots are using it. In urban planning we have this concept we call "desire trails." When you look at an expanse of grass and see a line of dirt and dust where grass has been consistently trampled because people walk there? You've just found a route in your park that you need to lay down a sidewalk and route traffic around. Planning routes where people don't walk is a surefire course to angry voters.

http://fcftw.eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=662501

Ines Fy
#30 - 2012-04-23 17:08:54 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hello folks,

As mentioned in the ship balancing Dev Blog, Inferno will be the starting point for a much needed ship overhaul.


In this topic we will focus on Combat frigate rebalancing, which affects:

  • Tormentor: role changed from mining frigate to medium range combat vessel
  • Punisher: improved role to fit close-medium range brawler
  • Merlin: overhauled role to fit medium-long range turret platform
  • Incursus: overhauld role to fit close range brawler
  • Rifter: role untouched, it already is made of win and dipped with awesomesauce


That's all for now, constructive comments are welcome Blink



My first comment

Having the ships devided by roles, excelent idea,I agree with it.

Now putting a Range Tag on each frig is not good. Combat range should be a personal option of the pilot, bonus should go both ways and the pilot should be able to choose how he wants to fit and fly the frigate.

You say: "these frigs are now combat frigs". Agree! but when you say "this is middle range, this is short", I disagree.

what you are just doing is condemming a frig to sub-role inside a role. Unless all other frigs are combat frigs and you will have short and medium range frigs to offer, setting the range of a specific frig and set the bonus and attributes to fit this range is not good.

--

Assuming range is something done and the decision to tag frigs with it is final I want to raise a question:

To dictate range you need speed. Looking at the speed of the frigs that are middle range, were is it?

Assuming 2 frigs go for a 1 vs 1 , one is middle range, the other is short.

The short ones in the post have more speed the medium ones, so they will get in range fast, the middle one cannot escape; the short will make the tackle and kill the middle range frig and this one cannot hit the short since is fitting weapons for middle range.

Should this be the other way arround? -> medium range be the fastest ones to be able to dictacte range and the short frigs should dictacte their combat in other way like using a web or scambler?

Reppyk
The Black Shell
#31 - 2012-04-23 17:19:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Reppyk
The optimal bonus for the merlin is still a bad idea.

1) Small hybrid guns have already an excellent optimal. Even the smallest one (75mm) can hit far away with Spike. The 2 bigger brothers (125mm and 150mm) are overkill since they hit farther than a disruptor. The real problem with railguns+spike is the very low tracking speed (but that's normal).
2) The optimal bonus is useless for the small blasters.
3) Sniping without alpha is not used in pvp in EVE Online.

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !

Guillome Renard
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#32 - 2012-04-23 17:20:31 UTC
Ines Fy wrote:

You say: "these frigs are now combat frigs". Agree! but when you say "this is middle range, this is short", I disagree.

what you are just doing is condemming a frig to sub-role inside a role. Unless all other frigs are combat frigs and you will have short and medium range frigs to offer, setting the range of a specific frig and set the bonus and attributes to fit this range is not good.

--

Assuming range is something done and the decision to tag frigs with it is final I want to raise a question:

To dictate range you need speed. Looking at the speed of the frigs that are middle range, were is it?

(Other good stuff about speed versus range)

I was hesitant to include this in my other post, but what the hell, since the topic is broached...

The whole 'comparative combat role' separation is an understandable, but utterly misguided effort.

Everything in war is contextual, and this has thusfar held (and will continue to hold) true in EVE.

"long" range for a frigate is still "Short" range for a battleship. One man's "bombardment" may be another man's "vanilla DPS." Especially if every size of ship is divided by these classifications, you wind up designing ships that become obsolete.

For example: "Bombardment" frigates, assuming the role is massive, long-range DPS, will simply fall short against their Battlecruiser and Battleship cousins. Larger hulls can get moar deeps and moar far, period (Unless you're planning some truly revolutionary changes to current weapon performance...). In mixed-size fleets, the "bombardment" frigate will be a waste of time. Frigate pilots would best serve the fleet by focusing on things that frigates do well, but larger ships suck at.

By and large that is what current fleet/gang tactics have accounted for.

Rather than try and make a frigate that is good at long-range high-DPS fire, consider making frigate roles variations on the themes that make frigates unique on the battlefield: small sigs, fast locking times, great tracking, and lots of speed.

The player community can, and currently has, developed niche techniques around individual hulls that play to their strengths. Don't try and pave over that. Rather, look at the needs players have for certain ships, and build the product to meet those needs.

http://fcftw.eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=662501

Lenier Chenal
Offensive Upholder
#33 - 2012-04-23 17:26:17 UTC
Yeah, because armor rep ships are used so much in PvP.
Callic Veratar
#34 - 2012-04-23 17:28:32 UTC
Guillome Renard wrote:
I also agree that taking away the Amarrian mining frigate without giving it an alternative, and leaving other races mining frigates intact is especially poor form. The Arbitrator is the Amarr pilot's next mining ship and let's face it, mining drones suck.


This argument is pointless. All mining frigates and cruisers are being rebuilt as combat or logistics ships.
Lord Haur
Star Frontiers
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#35 - 2012-04-23 17:29:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Haur
Callic Veratar wrote:
Guillome Renard wrote:
I also agree that taking away the Amarrian mining frigate without giving it an alternative, and leaving other races mining frigates intact is especially poor form. The Arbitrator is the Amarr pilot's next mining ship and let's face it, mining drones suck.


This argument is pointless. All mining frigates and cruisers are being rebuilt as combat or logistics ships.

The argument is that they should do them all at once, not one at a time, with (knowing CCP) a significant delay between each wave of changes.
Luba Cibre
Global Song Setup
#36 - 2012-04-23 17:31:36 UTC
Bye bye 9k ehp merlin, i'll miss you. :(

"Nothing essential happens in the absence of noise." 

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#37 - 2012-04-23 17:31:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Questions/Comments:
- Blasters with Void benefit a lot from an optimal bonus, but the lack of a resistance bonus means you won't survive long enough to actually use it. I really liked the resistance bonus on the Merlin. A lot. I don't know about this change, but I'm willing to give it a spin.
- The Incursus still has a MASSIVE sig radius. I don't think this is reasonable.
- I'm extremely -1 to any change that lowers capacitor on ships that require capacitor to fire their weapons.
- The Tormentor is going to be useless. Still.
- Why are you reducing the CPU on the Incursus so heavily while giving it extra slots?!

-Liang

Ed: The Merlin isn't the Harpy, but you'll end up flying them exactly the same.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Jackie Cross
MacGyver Communications
Minerva Exalt Holdings
#38 - 2012-04-23 17:32:09 UTC
I gotta ask.
So the first mining ship for a new pilot to eve will be a Mining barge? Doesn't that feel like a rather large step, and an expensive one, if someone wants to start with mining?
Will you introduce a lower tier mining ship for new players?
Lenier Chenal
Offensive Upholder
#39 - 2012-04-23 17:32:38 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:
Guillome Renard wrote:
I also agree that taking away the Amarrian mining frigate without giving it an alternative, and leaving other races mining frigates intact is especially poor form. The Arbitrator is the Amarr pilot's next mining ship and let's face it, mining drones suck.


This argument is pointless. All mining frigates and cruisers are being rebuilt as combat or logistics ships.


Combat navitas? Epic. Still, a frig like the navitas mines like a beast even compared to cruisers, so what are noobs to do?
Callic Veratar
#40 - 2012-04-23 17:32:43 UTC
Lord Haur wrote:
Callic Veratar wrote:
Guillome Renard wrote:
I also agree that taking away the Amarrian mining frigate without giving it an alternative, and leaving other races mining frigates intact is especially poor form. The Arbitrator is the Amarr pilot's next mining ship and let's face it, mining drones suck.


This argument is pointless. All mining frigates and cruisers are being rebuilt as combat or logistics ships.

The argument is that they should do them all at once, not one at a time, with (knowing CCP) a significant delay between each wave of changes.


They've only listed the Combat ships, not the Assault, Bombardment, or Support. One might theorize that the other three might fall into the other categories.