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EVE is 10 (TEN) years old....

Author
The Hamilton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2012-03-10 17:17:55 UTC
I seem to remember CCP wanting to do this with WiS as it could be a new game built into the old EVE game. But players got rather angry at that which is disappointing.

So what would you change? I'm listening. I have a bigger vested interest in seeing how EVE and CCP changes than the enjoyment I get from playing EVE. CCP could take all my data away to make EVE 2 and I wouldn't be that upset.

But honestly what would you change?

- game physics? (destructible ships and so on)
- reaction based game play? (e.g. quick time events at it's worst.... I really hate this)
- a more cinematic experience? like SW:TOR
- much better UI that doesn't get in the way?
- randomized game objects like guns in borderlands?
- better AI that interacts more than just sitting and waiting to be shot?
- a movie style story ah-la Mass Effect?
- station complexes of a bunch of stations that are flown around, instead of warped to? (Like POS, which already has a following to make them more like stations... =P )

Honestly I feel CCP is doing the most amazing thing I have seen in computer games in a while. That is to mix two games together! While most other games give you a really **** facebook game (Assassin's creed brotherhood) tie in, CCP are building a completely new and different game that has some effect on the game EVE. This outclasses the new game engines, adds more value than a scoreboard and provides completely different game play that a friend might enjoy having to play in the same game universe as you instead of the old EVE game.
The Hamilton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2012-03-10 17:26:01 UTC
The more I think about it, EVE hasn't got enough limitations to show it's stuff visually. And I feel that's the biggest complaint coming from this thread.

If your couldn't zoom all the way out and spin your ship all the way round, then the size of things and the direction you flew would have a more visual impact on the player. As it stands you don't see that, instead you see your overview because it's more important and your ship is often a speck.

But do we the players want to make this limit for visual appeal? Making the game play harder on ourselves, while probably making the overview even more important?
Leto Aramaus
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#23 - 2012-03-10 20:10:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Leto Aramaus
Wow it's good to see someone else who not only acknowledges that EVE could be changed, but isn't completely against it.

First off, if CCP took all my data away and deleted my characters, I wouldn't care how good the new EVE was, I would quit and never play again.

As for what I would change

game physics: BIG yes. such as destructible ships, real objects in space, (i.e. can't shoot through asteroids, warp through planets

I never intended to suggest a more reaction based gameplay, in fact, my future vision of EVE, I think, would make it a slower paced, more strategic game.

Definitely a more cinematic experience. currently the visual aspect of EVE is my biggest gripe with the game. Even if much of the visual world you see in EVE can't be interacted with, I would like to see a much more diverse selection of models, textures, backgrounds... etc

Absolutely needs a much better UI. namely, better ship/menu controls and hotkeys. (the recent drone, navigation, etc hotkeys were a BIG improvement, but not done yet

***My number 1 request from CCP is a simple hotkey that maps to "fly in direction of camera". Which would essentially double click in the center of your ship, but make manual spaceflight much more streamlined and less cumbersome. Allowing you to spin, push-button, fly at where you're pointing.

I've never played borderlands so I don't know what randomized objects means in relation to that. But as for EVE, I was just readinig someones suggestion on how to fix mining, and he gave the idea of having a random chance of asteroids dropping "super ultra mega dense "im rich" ore". I like this idea and it is kind of implemented already in PVE drops and such, but I would like to see more random possibilities in EVE (i.e. stumbling upon cool stuff in space)

Absolutely needs better AI. PVE is currently stupid and boring unless you're high or 12. It is nothing but blobs upon blobs of crappy NPC bots that takes hours to kill. I would love to see some PVE where you have to fight 3 or 4 good NPC ships that are fit like PVPers.

Movie style story? no

Quote:
station complexes of a bunch of stations that are flown around, instead of warped to? (Like POS, which already has a following to make them more like stations... =P )


BOOM! exacttttly

Stations (especially high sec) should, for one, not be copy and pasted throughout EVE, so you see the same station in Jita as you do in 0.0 space... come on
and for two, high sec should feel like a space CITY. when you're in Jita 4, you should be inside a giant complex of structures, that stretch out as far as you can see in space, or its a giant station-ring that encircles the whole moon/planet, and you fly from location to location around the "city"

also the interiors of stations need completely redone. for 10 years the station interiors have been these giant, disembodied, empty rooms that have no bearing or correlation to the actual shape of the station outside, where your ship floats over a giant circle thing like some futuristic indiana jones treasure.

***please make stations to scale, inside and out, as realistic as you can get them. our ships should be "docked" against some interior station boom/arm contraption, and (maybe? just maybe?) could there be other ships in there with you? even some real player's ships that you can see across the giant docking bay chasm?

(now as they currently are, to make stations and ships to scale, stations would need to be MUCH bigger.... so make them MUCH BIGGER

As for Incarna, I am wholly unimpressed. Especially since it is currently one useless room. Unless CCP plans on making an amazing 3rd person shooter (like Mass Effect) out of incarna, and making EVE a fully realized universe where you can do everything from running around on foot with cool guns, to flying ships with cool guns, I would rather see incarna completely removed if it meant I would get an updated space-flight engine for 2012.

Please please god (CCP), please change EVE.

Please bring this game into the 21st century.
The Hamilton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2012-03-10 21:13:23 UTC
Well the main problem with my questions are things such as lag, old computers, and that they don't improve the actual game play of EVE, just the visual appeal.
There are some people playing eve on old computers or weak laptops (me), where adding these things would send the computer into a crawl, whereas it works just fine right now. Why take away my gameplay, just to create a more beautiful EVE for a smaller player base? I know it's selfish to say this, and I would actually not complain truth be told, but some others in my position will.

The only thing I can really support improving is an AI that has many different and flexible attack styles. Stealth bombing, hunting specific players, setting traps, pretending to lose a battle, running away to try kill you another day with fits to beat the one you just had.

PS: Borderlands has randomly generated models and specs for weapons, doing this to stations in EVE would make every station look a little different. There would be no copies. Not so good to generate different specs though, as balancing would be impossible.
Leto Aramaus
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#25 - 2012-03-11 01:25:50 UTC
As for people with old computers... that is no excuse to not bring the game up-to-date with todays modern hardware.

When Trinity came out, CCP offered a "premium" client with the nice new graphics, as well as a client with the old graphics. This was VERY considerate of them and surprising, but as you can see, they no longer offer a low graphics client, thats what graphics settings are for.

I could literally barf every time one of you Pentium 3, GeForce 4 players whining about how any major updates would kill your crap PC.

Build. a. new. one.

CCP shouldn't ever limit their development of EVE for the sake of people who have old computers.

You don't see Battlefield 3 being released with Dice saying "Yea we could have made the graphics 5 times better but we wanted all those people still playing 1942 to not cry."

So even if nobody supports my "total change to gameplay mechanics and space-flight", many more visual improvements are long overdue.
Valea Silpha
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2012-03-11 02:11:58 UTC
Leto Aramaus wrote:
As for people with old computers... that is no excuse to not bring the game up-to-date with todays modern hardware.

When Trinity came out, CCP offered a "premium" client with the nice new graphics, as well as a client with the old graphics. This was VERY considerate of them and surprising, but as you can see, they no longer offer a low graphics client, thats what graphics settings are for.

I could literally barf every time one of you Pentium 3, GeForce 4 players whining about how any major updates would kill your crap PC.

Build. a. new. one.

CCP shouldn't ever limit their development of EVE for the sake of people who have old computers.

You don't see Battlefield 3 being released with Dice saying "Yea we could have made the graphics 5 times better but we wanted all those people still playing 1942 to not cry."

So even if nobody supports my "total change to gameplay mechanics and space-flight", many more visual improvements are long overdue.


You can't play eve on a Pentium 3 with a GeForce4, now and tbh I don't know if you ever could.

A lot of people who object to massive upgrades to the engine on practical terms are people like me who are running on a 2 or 3 year old machine (I have a Core2Quad with a 6770) who have a considerable amount invested in eve already but who can't just drop a grand on a new system.

They phase stuff out when the hardware involved becomes genuinely obsolete, and ideally when the players on that hardware are making up less than 1% of the players. That's what they've done with ever change to the minimum reqs so far.

As to why can't they just remake eve in a new engine, its because the development time is HUGE and they only want to overhaul after getting a decent amount of use out of the current engine.

It makes sense to jump to a new engine when you make a completely new game because games like BF3 are judged by rather different rules than MMOs when it comes to graphics, and particularly AAA releases are all about being cutting edge, not just good. At the same time, those AAA dev teams expect to make many many hundreds of millions of dollars upon release, so they can afford to bring in the talent and expertise to use a new engine or just make their own ones.

MMOs run on an entirely different model. Its about the subs, and thats it, they have limited money and people to do everything with. They also have substantial overhead costs in terms of bandwidth and the need to run, maintain and upgrade the server. And they still haven't finished rolling out the current V3 graphics updates.

I'm pretty sure that eve has the most up to date graphics of almost any MMO and frankly makes WoW (with its stupendous amount of money) look like a relic in that regard.
Cletus Graeme
Shai Dorsai
#27 - 2012-03-11 02:35:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Cletus Graeme
We don't need CCP to make an EvE 2. It would be a completely different game and they already have a winning formula so why throw it away and start over?

They've always stated that EvE is "a work in progress" and after 10 years (or 9 to be exact) that is STILL the case. In this respect, they were WAY ahead of their time when they started EvE - most other games have been playing catch up. Their continued efforts to improve on the EXISTING game are what keep the playerbase coming back again and again - some of us have been subscribed for 5 or more years! How many other games command that kind of loyalty?

Also, you only have to look at how badly some recent sequels to great titles have done (by badly, I mean from a player community viewpoint rather than sales - most sequels outsold their orginals but were never as popular or as long-lived) to see that it isn't easy to come with TWO truly original, paradigm changing ideas/products.

I'd love it if there was another comparable space-sim RPG to EvE out there but I don't think that it is CCP's responsibility to produce it. Someone else needs to step up and deliver. Infinity (http://www.infinity-universe.com/) looked like a potential contender for a longtime but it's progressing so slowly that by the time it is ready for release we will probably all be flying real spaceships :D

Perhaps Planetside 2 or other new titles can expand this genre which has been neglected for so long. Personally, I never understood why players so enjoy watching their guy/gal bash an orc/troll/goblin repeatedly over the head with an axe/word/mace - most RPG fights are boring as hell to me (but then I do come from an FPS background).

But - it's not upto CCP to do this. They gave the gaming world EvE and whatever happens going forwards, they've already contributed a living legend which will be loved and remembered by thousands long after the game itself is DUST (pun intended!). EvE was inspired by such classics as Elite and Homeworld. Hopefully it will provide similar inspiration for future projects.
The Hamilton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2012-03-11 03:12:19 UTC
tl:dr The improvements are vast and would take CCP a whole new Dev team like EVE's current one to achieve. + no new/better game play yet.

Leto Aramaus wrote:
As for people with old computers... that is no excuse to not bring the game up-to-date with todays modern hardware.

When Trinity came out, CCP offered a "premium" client with the nice new graphics, as well as a client with the old graphics. This was VERY considerate of them and surprising, but as you can see, they no longer offer a low graphics client, thats what graphics settings are for.

I could literally barf every time one of you Pentium 3, GeForce 4 players whining about how any major updates would kill your crap PC.

Build. a. new. one.

CCP shouldn't ever limit their development of EVE for the sake of people who have old computers.

You don't see Battlefield 3 being released with Dice saying "Yea we could have made the graphics 5 times better but we wanted all those people still playing 1942 to not cry."

So even if nobody supports my "total change to gameplay mechanics and space-flight", many more visual improvements are long overdue.


No you don't see DICE making the same graphic quality in a "NEW" game. But you do see very little change in just about every game that is updated from a time of release (Bar EVE and WOW having some graphical improvement), because players who bought the game on "release" do deserve to still be able to play it at some level. The fact that the company asks them to upgrade to keep using an old product is a very uncommon business practice. Look at Final fantasy 14 and 11 too.

Turning textures and lighting up and down is one thing. Adding a slew of polygons onto my screen with new and impressive structures and breakables is another. MMO's are always behind the curve in graphics for reasons of lag and a much broader user base level of computers, that's why 80% of them are very cartoony. And even more are still 2D!

Also won't doing all that graphical change take damn near ages without any other kind of update from CCP? Physics code being re-written, modelling of breakables, effects for breakables, bug testing for breakables, modular model building along with coding to make these appear random and different without breaking for stations, much heavier changes to UI than are currently being implemented, coding and probably a ton of bug fixing for new camera mechanics. All the while trying to make sure these elements fit together and keep the game playable. Then if you want better planets then we get into huge amounts of volumetric and particle additions along with some seriously detailed texture maps that need to be randomized as well at many various levels of detail otherwise even the beastliest machines will die trying to play EVE.


As for your total game play changes. What would they be? And how long do you think they'd take to implement with the current EVE dev team? What about EVE is too old and bad to play?


And I'm sorry for playing devils advocate here. But I find my ideas are better and clearer when someone puts pressure on me to justify them. I hope yours are too!

Also too many people think this is about EVE2.... tl:dr Upgrade EVE to the equivalent of building EVE from scratch now or close.
The Hamilton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2012-03-11 03:17:56 UTC
Valea Silpha wrote:
You can't play eve on a Pentium 3 with a GeForce4, now and tbh I don't know if you ever could.

A lot of people who object to massive upgrades to the engine on practical terms are people like me who are running on a 2 or 3 year old machine (I have a Core2Quad with a 6770) who have a considerable amount invested in eve already but who can't just drop a grand on a new system.

They phase stuff out when the hardware involved becomes genuinely obsolete, and ideally when the players on that hardware are making up less than 1% of the players. That's what they've done with ever change to the minimum reqs so far.

As to why can't they just remake eve in a new engine, its because the development time is HUGE and they only want to overhaul after getting a decent amount of use out of the current engine.

It makes sense to jump to a new engine when you make a completely new game because games like BF3 are judged by rather different rules than MMOs when it comes to graphics, and particularly AAA releases are all about being cutting edge, not just good. At the same time, those AAA dev teams expect to make many many hundreds of millions of dollars upon release, so they can afford to bring in the talent and expertise to use a new engine or just make their own ones.

MMOs run on an entirely different model. Its about the subs, and thats it, they have limited money and people to do everything with. They also have substantial overhead costs in terms of bandwidth and the need to run, maintain and upgrade the server. And they still haven't finished rolling out the current V3 graphics updates.

I'm pretty sure that eve has the most up to date graphics of almost any MMO and frankly makes WoW (with its stupendous amount of money) look like a relic in that regard.


Darn beat me to it P
Obsidiana
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-03-11 03:18:55 UTC
I could see something like long range sensors, giving information.

I would think capitol ships could do it. Then give them ways to attack long range opponents. Carriers already have such a system: Fighters. Titans already have such a system: Doomsday. Dred do not have such a system, so they are the only ones that would need anything. The idea would be to take Capitol-to-Capitol warfare up a notch. Carriers would be almost an RTS thing.

A full overview of the battle in a solar system would be awesome.
Leto Aramaus
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#31 - 2012-03-11 16:05:08 UTC
Obsidiana wrote:
I could see something like long range sensors, giving information.

I would think capitol ships could do it. Then give them ways to attack long range opponents. Carriers already have such a system: Fighters. Titans already have such a system: Doomsday. Dred do not have such a system, so they are the only ones that would need anything. The idea would be to take Capitol-to-Capitol warfare up a notch. Carriers would be almost an RTS thing.

A full overview of the battle in a solar system would be awesome.



This is almost exactly what I imagine for an updated version of EVE.

Quote:
As for your total game play changes. What would they be? And how long do you think they'd take to implement with the current EVE dev team? What about EVE is too old and bad to play?



If I had to choose one thing (and this one thing is really like, the whole game) it would be a change in propulsion. Here is my summed up idea for changing the way EVE plays....

Standard ship propulsion = used to fly around solar systems, station to station, planet to planet

Warp Drives = used to fly to other systems or just far outside your current system into deep space (ONLY able to reach nearby stars in the same "cluster"/constellation)

Stargates/Jump Drives = used to jump to other constellations/clusters of close stars
-so instead of every single system having a stargate, you would jump to a cluster and be in the first (most colonized?) system, then fly your ship to any nearby stars in the constellation with your warp drive

To go along with this, and my next biggest change, would be for our view/zoom-out-ability to encompass the entire system. So you could zoom all the way down to your ship the way we see it now, or zoom all the way out to see the solar system (fully created 3D planets, sun, moons...) and be able to ship spin, or planet spin, all in the same GUI/persistent world.

Then in turn, the game mechanics must change as such:
-remove local (which needs done anyway)
-ship sensors determine everything you can see (some ships see further than others, some have AU ranges, some have sensor ranges around the 400kms we have now

So that is a basic summary of how I think EVE should be. I personally don't see that being THAT hard to implement, as you all are saying that a total gameplay change would take so much time and money.

I really don't think this is building EVE from scratch, so yea I guess I want to clarify that the "EVE 2" was a term I thought would help some of you understand that I'm talking about major changes to the mechanics of EVE, but I...

DO NOT WANT a completely different game.

Quote:
You can't play eve on a Pentium 3 with a GeForce4, now and tbh I don't know if you ever could.

A lot of people who object to massive upgrades to the engine on practical terms are people like me who are running on a 2 or 3 year old machine (I have a Core2Quad with a 6770) who have a considerable amount invested in eve already but who can't just drop a grand on a new system.



As for this person, the Pentium 3/Geforce 4 was a hyperbole example of exactly what you did after going "literal police" on me.
I don't care that MMOs are usually crappier in technology and graphics, I don't care that other games are judged differently, I am a fan of EVE, and I want to see it updated and changed to match what we're capable of in 2012 and beyond.


Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2012-03-11 16:31:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss Whippy
EDIT: Deleted, my ideas are too good for this fail thread.

[URL="https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=82348"]UI Iteration isn't enough, we need to start from scratch[/URL]

Leto Aramaus
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#33 - 2012-03-11 21:50:09 UTC
I thought by your sig Whippy that you might have some good input on a thread like this.

I completely and wholeheartedly agree with your post and your signature. If (since) I'm not going to get my major changes any time soon, I think the UI is one of the first things that should be changed.

However both your post and your signature only states what needs "ended". So do you have any proposals for a better GUI?

The click fest? what do you mean by this? any GUI on a computer screen is going to need to be clicked, and if things are getting hectic in whatever game you're playing, the amount of clicks may easily turn into a "fest", even with a good UI.

What do you mean by multiple windows to accomplish one task? I don't doubt that this is true but I can't think of any EVE examples so I'd like to hear yours.

Streamline it? Simplify it? These are very broad suggestions and although in principle I agree, but what does streamline it mean?

make it consistent? As in make the commands work every time, consistently? If so, 100% agreed. Since I started playing EVE the GUI has felt laggy and unresponsive, with things needing clicked or pushed multiple times or the inability to input multiple commands at once and have them all register.

What does scalability mean in relation to the EVE UI? Adaptability for future changes to gameplay (like what I'm proposing)?
Asudem
Asen of Asgard
#34 - 2012-03-12 00:36:40 UTC
bump
Leto Aramaus
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#35 - 2012-03-12 04:01:45 UTC
Even if you disagree with my radical changes I would like this thread to be a brainstorm of ideas for the future of EVE.

Any and all input is welcome, but know that if you flame and give your input in a nasty way, you're going to get an equally nasty reply from me.
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-03-12 05:02:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss Whippy
EDIT: Deleted, my ideas are too good for this fail thread.

[URL="https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=82348"]UI Iteration isn't enough, we need to start from scratch[/URL]

Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-03-12 05:20:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Gerrick Palivorn
Miss Whippy wrote:
It's pretty obvious to me that there are many ways the amount of clicking required in many areas could be drastically reduced. When PI first came out it involved an unbelieiveable amount of laborious clicking. This was amended to some degree, but it's still unecessisarily complicated.

It's almost as if the labouriousness is there by design to slow the process and profitability down. A perfect example is scanning with probes, it has already been redesigned once and it is still awful. Having to individually manipulate each probe, in a cluttered screen can only possibly be there to slow down the scanning process. There's absolutely no reason why we can't have save probe formations. Making it much more complicated then it needs to be is a lazy way of slowing the process down.


Either your a troll or you missed about two dozen threads and a whole lot of youtube videos. Just incase you've been locked in a closet...Probing is easy, set up your probes around a center point, press shif move one probe to move them all in a 'formation', pressing alt will move probes in or out from the central point of the formation.

I didn't read the rest of your post because if you need to learn the shortcuts that are in place before you complain that there are not enough shortcuts.

Edit: I did read the rest of your post and invention I agree on. Learning to navigate the whole of Eve UI is very laborous and can be frustrating, but it takes time and there is a dev thread devoted to UI improvements. They are working on it, put your idea's there and let the Devs do there job.

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-

Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#38 - 2012-03-12 06:51:21 UTC
Your own argument defeats itself. 10 YEARS... and still going strong. Still updating, still growing, still evolving. Still has a loyal fanbase that log on not just because it's their old favorite, but because they are new and just discovering it. I want to see EVE evolve slowly over time and become something that could be called EVE 2. No other media (no need to limit it to games in this case, which shows you how impressive it is) has ever done this. In some aspects it's already been done. In others it, um, lags behind a bit (mining lol). But really, it's going in an aweseome direction now that CCP is focusing on not only adding content, but updating and modernizing the old as well.
Noceur-01 Tiers
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2012-03-12 09:45:12 UTC
How is EVE not good? Is this some troll topic? As a newer player I left other games to enjoy just what EVE is, a more advanced game which doesn't rely on twitch based gameplay but rather planning and knowledge. I don't know what it is you are proposing OP but this game IS good otherwise it wouldn't have survived this long. WiS was imo a step in the WRONG direction, more space less barbie yet all type of expansion and trying out other routes aren't bad. For example the Dust 514/EVE thing is quite interesting for the game and genre as whole.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#40 - 2012-03-12 12:25:42 UTC
Stayed away from this thread over the weekend (drunk poasting is bad...).

OP, here's the thing -- your ideas aren't bad per se, but they would require at a minimum an eve 2.0. A lot of the limitations are (likely) part of the physics engine, which the devs sacrifice hundreds of thousands of hamsters to every year (seriously, they have completely wiped out the hamster population in Iceland, and must import hamsters from elsewhere).

EVE is different -- yeah, the graphics aren't AAA cutting edge (though, TBH -- gameplay >>>>>>>>>>>> graphics. I'd rather play a terribad looking DOS game with great gameplay than a beautiful looking game with **** gameplay), but we don't need AAA cutting edge graphics. Most everyone in big fleets (that I've known) turn nearly everything to LOW/OFF in order to squeeze every little bit of usability out of their PC, even if they could handle things looking "better".

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia