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EVE is 10 (TEN) years old....

Author
Leto Aramaus
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#41 - 2012-03-12 16:37:45 UTC
Well I got a lot to respond to here....

Quote:
EVE is different -- yeah, the graphics aren't AAA cutting edge (though, TBH -- gameplay >>>>>>>>>>>> graphics. I'd rather play a terribad looking DOS game with great gameplay than a beautiful looking game with **** gameplay), but we don't need AAA cutting edge graphics. Most everyone in big fleets (that I've known) turn nearly everything to LOW/OFF in order to squeeze every little bit of usability out of their PC, even if they could handle things looking "better".


I agree, I would rather play a game with good gameplay and sub-par graphics. But I do not agree with... currently EVE's graphics are better than its gameplay, and I would like to see both greatly improved.


Quote:
How is EVE not good? Is this some troll topic? As a newer player I left other games to enjoy just what EVE is, a more advanced game which doesn't rely on twitch based gameplay but rather planning and knowledge. I don't know what it is you are proposing OP but this game IS good otherwise it wouldn't have survived this long.



People keep asking me, how is EVE not good? "Obviously its good it has so many players, survived so long, etc..."
Don't get me wrong, EVE isn't "terrible" as I know I've said in this post, my frustration gets the best of me, and I focus on the bad and call it terrible, when there are good things. The game is an amazing piece of social and technological engineering, very cool, especially in concept. But my original point is still the same....

EVE is bad now, because its game engine was built in 2000-2003, and it did the best it could back then. Now, it can do much better, and I think it should.

EVE is bad now because as I've said, the current game mechanics are...

-Spin around your ship and look at things that you can never get to, touch, use... in a 3D world that is not actually rendered and created (the planets, the moons, copy and pasted everything)
-warp to, target, shoot
-warp to, target, mine
-warp to, target, salvage
-traveling = warp to gate, jump, warp to gate, jump, warp to gate jump... (this is really the part that just breeds hate in my heart)

I think the current mechanics of travel, combat, everything in EVE... are uber simple and limited by the game engine. I think CCP messed up when they first made EVE, and all you loyal players shouldn't be so loyal to this old and obsolete style of gameplay.

Quote:
Your own argument defeats itself. 10 YEARS... and still going strong. Still updating, still growing, still evolving. Still has a loyal fanbase that log on not just because it's their old favorite, but because they are new and just discovering it. I want to see EVE evolve slowly over time and become something that could be called EVE 2.


My own argument certainly does not defeat itself. I'm not at all saying its 10 years old so it should die and we should all go play WOW.... I'm saying exactly what you said is already happening (which it is, albeit too slowly), that EVE is slowly evolving into EVE 2, and getting made better than it was.

I'm simply saying that this is taking too long, and the biggest issue, the basic mechanics of the game, have never been changed and it's about time they are.

Quote:

It's almost as if the labouriousness is there by design to slow the process and profitability down. A perfect example is scanning with probes, it has already been redesigned once and it is still awful. Having to individually manipulate each probe, in a cluttered screen can only possibly be there to slow down the scanning process. There's absolutely no reason why we can't have save probe formations. Making it much more complicated then it needs to be is a lazy way of slowing the process down.



This couldn't be more true. The probing interface is god awful, see my own post earlier in this thread.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#42 - 2012-03-12 18:04:05 UTC
Leto Aramaus wrote:
Well I got a lot to respond to here....

Quote:
EVE is different -- yeah, the graphics aren't AAA cutting edge (though, TBH -- gameplay >>>>>>>>>>>> graphics. I'd rather play a terribad looking DOS game with great gameplay than a beautiful looking game with **** gameplay), but we don't need AAA cutting edge graphics. Most everyone in big fleets (that I've known) turn nearly everything to LOW/OFF in order to squeeze every little bit of usability out of their PC, even if they could handle things looking "better".


I agree, I would rather play a game with good gameplay and sub-par graphics. But I do not agree with... currently EVE's graphics are better than its gameplay, and I would like to see both greatly improved.


are we playing the same game?

yeah, missioning is bland ... but even CCP says it's just means to an end (see: CDIA video on agents). Probing takes a little getting used to ... but not everyone has to do it.

Once you get into roams and the like, the game gets just plain fun.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Leto Aramaus
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#43 - 2012-03-12 18:33:05 UTC
You're absolutely right, the only way EVE is really fun, is to play in a large group of people (corp/alliance) and therefore pwn players in PVP.

The only other way its fun, is if you're high on something, and the pretty space graphics are enough to entertain you for a few minutes. This quickly wears off after about the first 6 or so jump, or a couple PVE fights.

So from my perspective, the pretty space graphics are much more entertaining than the "warp to ___" game mechanics. To me, EVE does not feel like you are flying a ship in space.



Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#44 - 2012-03-12 18:59:13 UTC
Velicitia wrote:

Once you get into roams and the like, the game gets just plain fun.

Only if you are roaming with the right people.

Part of the problem with player-driven content is a lot of players are incompetent in making an enjoyable game experience for others.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs

Blatant Forum Alt
Doomheim
#45 - 2012-03-12 19:26:38 UTC
You seem to be demanding general changes to the basic game mechanics for the sake of making changes.

Lets here some details then. How would you change the basic mechanics of the game to make it a significant improvement over what we have at the minute, while still being able to be played on laptops and four year old pcs?
Leto Aramaus
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#46 - 2012-03-12 19:33:29 UTC
Blatant Forum Alt wrote:
You seem to be demanding general changes to the basic game mechanics for the sake of making changes.

Lets here some details then. How would you change the basic mechanics of the game to make it a significant improvement over what we have at the minute, while still being able to be played on laptops and four year old pcs?



I already made a post on this thread detailing the biggest changes I'd like to see.
Quote:

If I had to choose one thing (and this one thing is really like, the whole game) it would be a change in propulsion. Here is my summed up idea for changing the way EVE plays....

Standard ship propulsion = used to fly around solar systems, station to station, planet to planet

Warp Drives = used to fly to other systems or just far outside your current system into deep space (ONLY able to reach nearby stars in the same "cluster"/constellation)

Stargates/Jump Drives = used to jump to other constellations/clusters of close stars
-so instead of every single system having a stargate, you would jump to a cluster and be in the first (most colonized?) system, then fly your ship to any nearby stars in the constellation with your warp drive

To go along with this, and my next biggest change, would be for our view/zoom-out-ability to encompass the entire system. So you could zoom all the way down to your ship the way we see it now, or zoom all the way out to see the solar system (fully created 3D planets, sun, moons...) and be able to ship spin, or planet spin, all in the same GUI/persistent world.

Then in turn, the game mechanics must change as such:
-remove local (which needs done anyway)
-ship sensors determine everything you can see (some ships see further than others, some have AU ranges, some have sensor ranges around the 400kms we have now

So that is a basic summary of how I think EVE should be. I personally don't see that being THAT hard to implement, as you all are saying that a total gameplay change would take so much time and money.


I'm not demanding changes just for the sake of making changes. I know not many people will read every post in the thread, but if you had, you would know that's not the case.

I'm demanding changes for the sake of EVE being a very old game, the design of which I believe is not very fun or "space-like"
Blatant Forum Alt
Doomheim
#47 - 2012-03-12 19:48:32 UTC
Youre an idiot who hasnt thought through his terribad ideas. Please go inactive for a few days so this thread can die.
Leto Aramaus
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#48 - 2012-03-12 19:56:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Leto Aramaus
Lol way to support your opinions there buddy.

I have in fact thought very deeply on my ideas and I think they would make this game roughly 600% better.

If you think they're so bad, go ahead and take the time to explain why you think EVE's gameplay and mechanics are fine the way they are, instead of posting a completely useless 1 liner flame/troll.

edit. thanks for the bump and keeping this thread from dying ;)
Velicitia
XS Tech
#49 - 2012-03-12 20:01:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Velicitia wrote:

Once you get into roams and the like, the game gets just plain fun

Only if you are roaming with the right people

Part of the problem with player-driven content is a lot of players are incompetent in making an enjoyable game experience for others.


Fair enough -- but then the problem is you fly with not fun people. And that's not CCP's problem.


We're all adults here, and know how to meet people/make friends. I mean seriously, you don't have your mother set you up with a girl ... or tell you that you will have fun with that group... do you?

edit -- ******* 'draft' feature ate some of the tags... Roll

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

mxzf
Shovel Bros
#50 - 2012-03-12 20:03:13 UTC
Since when does 2012-2003=10? Eve isn't 10 years old, it isn't even 9 years old. Your original premise completely fails.

Besides that, Eve has had graphical and gameplay updates over the years, it's not behind the times at all. There's nothing at all wrong with Eve right now.
The Hamilton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2012-03-12 20:10:01 UTC  |  Edited by: The Hamilton
I think we can agree the kind of super graphical upgrades I was suggesting is too much at this stage. So lets focus on the gameplay then bug CCP about the rest later. (Also that discussion on UI is great, keep it coming!)

Ok well I can see the direction your talking about improving EVE in actual gameplay better now. And I must agree the idea of being able to scroll from the gun on your ship out the the full map view does excite me a little. But this wouldn't add a sense of scale. To do that you have to keep the camera at the close up ship size. As you see in all the trailers showing off EVE. Humans like to see big things be big, not shrink.

But it brings a TON of usability instead, which is why it excites me. So kudos.
On to:
The movement should be better than the warp to and blah
or warp to and jump warp to and jump.

Your idea is on the makings of the right track but I think we can refine it bit more. We still gotta keep some PVP possible without just forcing things to be stationary because they usually move too fast to engage. So the warping part is a bit tedious as it is and the jump mechanic is entirely to split the server load, not actually a desirable game-play decision. So the real question is how do you make the warping a more dynamic, fun and interesting activity while keeping the necessary feature of travel. You could scrap it, or you could build more into it.

We could

  • Make it much more instant
  • Add a physical activity to it, like hold spacebar when aligned to warp and take your hand off when your counter gets to 0.
  • Then taping it ever slower to slow down.
  • Not make it so direct visually (ah la stargate)
  • Change the colours a little as you speed up, make things go black and white as you get faster
  • Add some kind or way point system so you can fly much more dynamically about the system your in.
  • Perhaps adding warp speed combat
  • Add some auto camera cinematic flar to it
  • Make it possible to see and change direction to other things during warp (not very scifi, but may add gameplay)


Now with the dreaded but somewhat necessary stargates for the server cluster.

  • Add mini station near them for safty/quick stop/bathroom break/etc
  • Make them not usable on command but naturally occur
  • Provide a set of destination choices from each ONE cutting out some of the warp to stargates
  • Add a little more distance to stargates
  • Add a better animation than a bubble around your ship
  • Make warping to them actually warp into them, not nearby or bounce off them
  • Add the sense of travel to them with a map view of the distance going through the gate takes you
  • Put them closer to moons and planets for visual appeal
  • Make really long distance ones take some time
  • Provide pre-rendered fly by nebula views during
  • Give different size ships different jump distances


And so on
I'll get to scanning when I'm not tired

I'm not sure any of those ideas are good coz it's so late.. But there is a back end to the limitations of the cluster server system, changing it to a proposal more similar to yours would actually need and EVE 2's worth of re-coding. And thus would take about 2 to 3 years to come out I believe. Keeping the backend the same but trying to fix the issues your bringing up within those constraints can be done much much quicker. Throw me some more kinds of fix travel ideas!
Leto Aramaus
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#52 - 2012-03-12 20:13:31 UTC
mxzf wrote:
Since when does 2012-2003=10? Eve isn't 10 years old, it isn't even 9 years old. Your original premise completely fails.

Besides that, Eve has had graphical and gameplay updates over the years, it's not behind the times at all. There's nothing at all wrong with Eve right now.



Another poster who hasn't read anything I've said...

2003-2012 does INDEED = 9 years

Now not only am I rounding up to 10, since 9 is very close to 10 (which most people who graduated high school know)

But I also specifically said in my OP, I'm assuming EVE was in production before 2003, since there were characters created in 2003, I would imagine that CCP was building and coding the game engine at least a few months before that.

Your attempt at discrediting me completely fails

Besides that, EVE has had "graphical" and "content" updates only, never any updates to the way the game plays. If you had read my post... and have any common sense or even if you've ever played EVE yourself... you would know that's true.

For 9 (just to make you happy) years, EVE has remained the same...

(let me say it again for this new guy who doesn't like to read but likes to argue)

... spin around your ship, warp to, jump, warp to, target, ship spin.

Changing the stats of ships does not account to "gameplay" changes to me. Nor does adding new content, locations, career paths... etc.

Please just READ the original (and hopefully all the following) post in this thread if you're going to give your input, especially if its flame.

/still surrounded by idiots

Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2012-03-12 20:20:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Vertisce Soritenshi
I don't understand the OP. CCP is constantly changing EvE. They do 2 expansions every year for free. By most MMO standards we are on EvE 4 by now. Most MMO's don't last this long. NO other MMO has done a graphics overhaul on the scale that CCP has even once let alone twice. EvE is huge and still holds the record of largest MMO in scale. Can it be bigger? Yes...should it be? I don't know but I sure would like to see it so I am about half with you on that one.

Yes it is true that EvE is easier today than it was 9 years ago. I was there 9 years ago...EvE was the biggest pain in the ass of a game I had ever played. But it is only easier now mostly due to my understanding of the game. They haven't changed anything in the game mechanics to make it any easier and have been striving to make things more difficult. Yes ISK is easier to get now...but that is hardly the fault of CCP.

I don't want to see EvE 2. Not when they have proven already that they can take the existing game and pretty much change it however they see fit. If what you want is different gameplay...go play a different game. This is EvE.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821

Velicitia
XS Tech
#54 - 2012-03-12 20:22:33 UTC
EVE's release date was 06/05/2003. It will not be nine (9) until that date. Mxzf's assertion that EVE is not yet nine is 100% correct.


Everything you're saying is not "gameplay" is indeed the gameplay of this game. Would you say the walking around Narshe wasn't part of the gameplay of FF6 ... or that waiting your turn in combat wasn't?

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Leto Aramaus
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#55 - 2012-03-12 20:41:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Leto Aramaus
Quote:

I don't understand the OP. CCP is constantly changing EvE.
They haven't changed anything in the game mechanics to make it any easier and have been striving to make things more difficult.



So you don't understand my OP, which complains that the gameplay in EVE hasn't changed? Then you go on to say that "they haven't changed anything in the game mechanics"?

You just reiterated my point.


Quote:
EVE's release date was 06/05/2003. It will not be nine (9) until that date. Mxzf's assertion that EVE is not yet nine is 100% correct.


Can you people read?

Did you see any one of the several times in this thread where I've stated that EVE must have been in development before the public release date, and that I'm including that time in the 10 year concept? Did you learn the concept of rounding up in grade shcool?

EVE will not be 10 years old until that date, 2013... it is currently 2012, so yea, its about 2 months from being 9 years old. Wow people, I'm so sorry, want me to change the thread title to "EVE is 9 (NINE) years old" ??

As for everything I'm saying that's not gameplay, it ISN'T.

Quote:
Would you say the walking around Narshe wasn't part of the gameplay of FF6 ... or that waiting your turn in combat wasn't?


I have NO idea what you're talking about. You know you're on the EVE Online forums right?

Holy crap, here it is again for Velicitia...

Quote:
For 9 (just to make you happy) years, EVE has remained the same...

(let me say it again for this new guy who doesn't like to read but likes to argue)

... spin around your ship, warp to, jump, warp to, target, ship spin.

Changing the stats of ships does not account to "gameplay" changes to me. Nor does adding new content, locations, career paths... etc.

Please just READ the original (and hopefully all the following) post in this thread if you're going to give your input, especially if its flame.



The. Basic. Mechanics. Of. EVE. = gameplay.

I started in 2006, if EVE had some sort of different mechanics from 03 to 06, someone please enlighten me. But that still wouldn't change the fact that I think the current mechanics are boring and rarely fun.

Please people use those brain things of yours. I know every looooves to flame and disagree in the EVE community, but at least read before you try.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#56 - 2012-03-12 21:23:58 UTC
Eve has undergone large changes at various points in time, as Vertisce Soritenshi said. No, they haven't changed the central premise of the game itself or any of the basic mechanics (flying ships in space, warping across systems, shooting stuff, etc), but they shouldn't be changing that in the first place.

This is Eve, if you want another game, then go play something else, there's no reason to change the core gamplay mechanics of Eve just because you feel like there should be change just for the sake of change, that's just stupid.

So, to recap, there have been changes to the gameplay (and large changes to the graphics) of Eve since it started but there have not been changes to the core gameplay mechanic. And there is no need for change just for the sake of change, Eve is an amazing game as-is.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2012-03-12 21:32:26 UTC
The Hamilton wrote:

  • Change the colours a little as you speed up, make things go black and white as you get faster
  • [/b]

    ok, so, i was going to ignore this thread and not respond,t hen i saw THIS.

    when you speed up, things DO NOT ******* GO BLACK AND WHITE. im sorry, just this kinda stuff irks the crap outa me.

    there re only 2 ends to wavelength, red and purple. as you go faster, everything you see will fade into these colors,as they are determined by the frequency and speed of light. thats why you can tell which direction a galaxy is moving in a telescope (hubble or other large governmenty one) because one color means towrds, one is way.

    i dont quite recall but i do belive it was red-aproaching, blue-going away. and at elast at one point (havent checked since crucible) if you loked in fornt of you adn ebhind your ship in warp, those colors would be all you saw at the ends of the tunnel.



    also, 90% of the other ideas you presented in that post were terrible, the last 10% meh.
    Leto Aramaus
    Black Fox Marauders
    Pen Is Out
    #58 - 2012-03-12 22:09:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Leto Aramaus
    mxzf wrote:
    Eve has undergone large changes at various points in time, as Vertisce Soritenshi said. No, they haven't changed the central premise of the game itself or any of the basic mechanics (flying ships in space, warping across systems, shooting stuff, etc), but they shouldn't be changing that in the first place.

    This is Eve, if you want another game, then go play something else, there's no reason to change the core gamplay mechanics of Eve just because you feel like there should be change just for the sake of change, that's just stupid.

    So, to recap, there have been changes to the gameplay (and large changes to the graphics) of Eve since it started but there have not been changes to the core gameplay mechanic. And there is no need for change just for the sake of change, Eve is an amazing game as-is.



    I disagree. EVE is cool, but not amazing. I think changes to the core gameplay are needed, not just for the sake of change, but for the sake of fun.

    A lot of people say things like that, (if you don't like it go play another game) but I do like it, I just think it could be better, and I'd like to see that happen. Isn't that what the features and ideas forum is about?
    Vertisce Soritenshi
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #59 - 2012-03-12 23:25:17 UTC
    I will say it again. If you want different gameplay then go play a different game.

    Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821

    Leto Aramaus
    Black Fox Marauders
    Pen Is Out
    #60 - 2012-03-12 23:29:26 UTC
    Well if you insist, I will say it again as well,

    I don't want to play a different game. I want to play EVE, but I want EVE to better.