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EVE is 10 (TEN) years old....

Author
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2012-03-12 23:35:04 UTC
Well obviously EvE is better...otherwise you wouldn't be here and would instead be playing another game. Changing EvE's gameplay does not make it better...it makes it a different game. People play EvE for a reason. Changing that now would be idiotic. At least if it were an all in one immediate change. As I stated before...I have been playing EvE since day 1. EvE has changed a lot since it's initial release, in both graphics and gameplay.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821

Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#62 - 2012-03-12 23:38:39 UTC
Leto Aramaus wrote:
Well if you insist, I will say it again as well,

I don't want to play a different game. I want to play EVE, but I want EVE to better.

well, obviosuly, your definition of better isnt inline with anyone elses.

now please just read through this post before responding, because i do make some points that i would rather not see ignored, ive been nice enough to read yours.

eevryone here has even said, the CURRENT MECHANICS could get improved.
but what your wanting is NEW mechanics.

now the problem with yours as compared to ours is that:
Rewriting new mechanics, implementing them into the game, and making sure the bugs are fixed, would mean post-poning nearly all other development of eve for a year or more, adn likley result in the same fiasco that came with WiS when it turned out they spent so long abrely working, maybe even more so when the mechanics upon release are BROKEN.
wehereas those of us wanting the current mechanics simply fixed/refined emans that CCP can make minor, quick changes that add up to an incredibly improved gameplay over time.

Radical mechancis changes are not good for MMO's because you basically bump everyone back down to square one, and in a agme where people have made several-year long careers based on thsoe emchanics and using them, changing mechanics would alienate a lot fo the playerbase.

Now for the specifics, was it you or the other guy who said you should be able to just jump to other systems while gates allow inter-constellation travel? because i ahev enws for you, that would END pvp, ebcause there would no longer be bottlenecks.

the whole point of eve's current mechancis is to force people into bottlenecks so that conflict may occur, with a true "free-roamin'" style, people would rarely ever meet eahcother, especially with eves ridiculously high space:people ratio.
Katie Frost
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#63 - 2012-03-12 23:40:24 UTC
Although I generally do not like your approach Leto - you seem very frustrated, difficult to engage and dismissive after requesting an open discussion on a basically very ambiguous OP - I can also agree on the merit of having long-term vision for the game.

We all know where EvE is heading... they have a video out for that and DEV resources are being allocated towards this goal. This is, for all intensive purposes, the current long-term direction which has been pursued for some time now. Unfortunately, your ideas (as stated in one of your later posts) do not feature in this picture. However, that is not to say that instead of launching into EVE 2.0 discussions that some of your ideas could not be implemented on a local update scale.

There would be some interesting applications to your proposal using the existing mechanics of the game. For instance, let's take the 3 propulsion systems (which we currently have anyway) with the removal of 'Local' and the addition more interact-able objects in space. Add to that the zoom-out ability that could encompass the solar system and allow players to interact with the objects around them. However, let's consider this in a realistic, possible local update scale.

You could select a random point within the Solar System to warp to, be it middle of space, asteroid belts, planets, stations, nebulae, anomalies, sites (whatever) - you could use your mouse + click to set a destination/beacon (or more if you set waypoints across different areas of the solar system) and engage your warp drive to warp to that spot (this would be an option as long as the spot is off your current grid). This maintains the current mechanic of propulsions system 1 (measured in ship speed, or kilometers) which is used when you are out of warp, propulsion mechanic 2 (warp) and lastly gate travel, the third system. We will exclude the jump mechanic for now as it is closely linked to the tertiary system anyway.

Once you have landed on your desired location, you can zoom out again and use your scan, which could give you intel within your 360 deg scan range (beacons and ship icons would appear on your solar map) and you can select to warp to these icons also. Different ships would have different scan ranges and resolutions and certain aspects of the surrounding solar system could obscure your ability to scan certain areas or limit your sensor distance - for example, nebulae, planets or certain asteroid belts/ice fields. This may add to the 'strategy' of combat (ambushes and hiding fleets) and add to the emersion into the game perhaps.

Combine the above features with a more challenging and interactive AI and improvements to UI and you may have a semi-decent proposal on your hands that people might support or argue against in a constructive manner. Interesting fact: all of the above ideas have been posted and discussed already in so many other threads on this forum.

I bet every player could have their own version of EvE and what they would like to see in it, changes, improvements, fixes and so on. My suggestion is, that if you want us to understand or believe in your vision of the future of EvE be more specific, realistic and less condescending.
Leto Aramaus
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#64 - 2012-03-13 00:49:21 UTC
Last 2 posters I salute you. Excellent counter-points.

Katie, yes you are correct I am frustrated, and I can also be quite abrasive to some people, but I try (and hope) to only flame the people who say things like this...

Quote:
I will say it again. If you want different gameplay then go play a different game.

... that add no real constructive content to the thread.

Quote:

My suggestion is, that if you want us to understand or believe in your vision of the future of EvE be more specific, realistic and less condescending.


I will take this advice to heart, because you're absolutely right. If needed, I will go back through this thread and collect or re-write my specific changes and put them all together for easy access.

Nariya, I like your approach and your input. I did indeed read your entire post and you almost had me convinced against my own posts, until the very end of yours.

I understand that some of what I'm proposing would take a long time and lots of effort to implement, and you're absolutely right that things need to be fixed and added slowly into the current game. I am all for this. Despite that I would (if given the chance) change EVE to my liking instantly overnight, I know this can not happen, so the most I can hope for is a slow evolution into something new and different.

As for your bottleneck point, I don't think what you're saying is true at all, it would not end PVP. Sure there may be less bottlenecks, but honestly... the way EVE is now, seems (at least to me) that ALL it is is bottlenecks. I think with my changes to propulsion, new, maybe even better bottlenecks would be created or found, and PVP would live on however it had to. I know I haven't thought of everything, and certainly haven't typed it all out here, but whatever changes I would like to see, I know that of course things would have to be done to make sure other things don't get broken.

Nariya and Katie you guys have pointed out (very impressively) some of the holes in my plan, and I appreciate that kind of discussion on my thread a great deal.

If nobody does before me, when I have the time, I would like to keep discussing how propulsion mechanics could be changed (slowly, or however) without breaking EVE completely. If anyone else has ideas on this I'd love to hear them.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#65 - 2012-03-13 01:58:59 UTC
Leto Aramaus wrote:

Did you see any one of the several times in this thread where I've stated that EVE must have been in development before the public release date, and that I'm including that time in the 10 year concept? Did you learn the concept of rounding up in grade shcool?.


assuming standard human gestation period, you were "in development" for 9 months before your birthday.

So, does your birthday take that into account? no. It's the day you were shoved head-first out your mother's vagina. Thus, "in development" time is not inclusive in considering EVE's birthday (which happens to be 6th May, as already noted).

As for you thinking it's OK for you to flame the people with criticism of your ideas ... you're doing it wrong. Your goal at this point is getting people to agree that your ideas are "good" and worthy of CCP spending a significant amount of time on, to the detriment of other areas. At this point, you're not really doing that for a lot of people ... so, perhaps you should re-examine why you're getting the response you are getting, and seeing about bringing said people to your way of thinking...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Leto Aramaus
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#66 - 2012-03-13 02:05:13 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Leto Aramaus wrote:

Did you see any one of the several times in this thread where I've stated that EVE must have been in development before the public release date, and that I'm including that time in the 10 year concept? Did you learn the concept of rounding up in grade shcool?.


assuming standard human gestation period, you were "in development" for 9 months before your birthday.

So, does your birthday take that into account? no. It's the day you were shoved head-first out your mother's vagina. Thus, "in development" time is not inclusive in considering EVE's birthday (which happens to be 6th May, as already noted).

As for you thinking it's OK for you to flame the people with criticism of your ideas ... you're doing it wrong. Your goal at this point is getting people to agree that your ideas are "good" and worthy of CCP spending a significant amount of time on, to the detriment of other areas. At this point, you're not really doing that for a lot of people ... so, perhaps you should re-examine why you're getting the response you are getting, and seeing about bringing said people to your way of thinking...



Lol this is the kind of post that puts me into ******* mode.

Video games and fetuses are very different things my friend.

The game mechanics of EVE were in development 10 years ago. Give it a rest. You're wrong, or just trying to troll.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#67 - 2012-03-13 02:24:10 UTC
No **** that a human is different than a software product ... however, we're talking about "birthday" and "age" ... so the comparison works.

Far as I can tell from CCP's websites, the game was in development for near 6 years (CCP founded in 1997, EvE released in 2003)...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Leto Aramaus
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#68 - 2012-03-13 02:29:59 UTC
No we're not talking about "birthday"

We (at least me) are talking about the age of the game mechanics. So no the comparison does not work, you just proved my point and actually added a few years to it. If EVE was in development for 6 years before '03 then its a couple years OLDER than 10.

Would you STFU already about this, its a barely relevant point to the thread.

You must be trolling right? Well thanks, you're just bumping my thread up over and over again. If that's the case, keep at it, just please don't think you're making a good point.

Aquila Draco
#69 - 2012-03-13 11:11:21 UTC
@ OP

You have hit the target with this thread.
You have hit the target soo hard that only ppl that are against everything can argue with you.
The Hamilton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2012-03-13 13:32:59 UTC  |  Edited by: The Hamilton
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
The Hamilton wrote:

  • Change the colours a little as you speed up, make things go black and white as you get faster
  • [/b]

    ok, so, i was going to ignore this thread and not respond,t hen i saw THIS.

    when you speed up, things DO NOT ******* GO BLACK AND WHITE. im sorry, just this kinda stuff irks the crap outa me.

    there re only 2 ends to wavelength, red and purple. as you go faster, everything you see will fade into these colors,as they are determined by the frequency and speed of light. thats why you can tell which direction a galaxy is moving in a telescope (hubble or other large governmenty one) because one color means towrds, one is way.

    i dont quite recall but i do belive it was red-aproaching, blue-going away. and at elast at one point (havent checked since crucible) if you loked in fornt of you adn ebhind your ship in warp, those colors would be all you saw at the ends of the tunnel.



    also, 90% of the other ideas you presented in that post were terrible, the last 10% meh.


    Haha, yes you are too right my friend! Sorry about that grave mistake in my entry level physics. Alas I was very tired and hadn't given any of my ideas thorough thought.

    But the way you describe my ideas is spot on. It's also spot on for most people's ideas. Our ideas collectively are about 90% bad 10% meh and maybe 0.1% brilliant! I apologise if none of my posts have yet to hit that 0.1% mark. (Note: brilliant may be more or less than 0.1%, it has yet to be accurately valued in its occurrence.)

    The main idea of the post was to try and encourage people bringing more and better ideas than mine for the issues that OP was asking to be solved in the game-play. I do love EVE as it is, but I do also love changes when they are good. Making the travel system more interesting is something I would like to see and I don't think we necessarily need the overhaul OP suggests to do it. So what are some ideas you can bring to the table that would lighten up our repetitive and rather uninteresting travel system which keeps the bottlenecks? Can you bring something else that creates PVP than just using bottlenecks?

    BTW I was never suggesting the use of all the ideas at once, that would be the worst idea of them all!

    Edit: I think my subconscious used a black and white example from some remnants of being told about the effects of G-Force on pilots. Which should just be black now I think about it. Also the pod system would negate this anyway (as far as lore goes). But I ignore lore over game-play every time. Explain it later, make it better now!
    Leto Aramaus
    Black Fox Marauders
    Pen Is Out
    #71 - 2012-03-13 17:13:20 UTC
    Aquila Draco wrote:
    @ OP

    You have hit the target with this thread.
    You have hit the target soo hard that only ppl that are against everything can argue with you.



    Heh. Even if you're being sarcastic I like to think that I have. Nobody else seems to though, I guess EVE is just not ready to evolve into it's next form yet, because none of the players or the devs want it to. I really do hope it's soon though (couple years), I would hate to see EVE stay the same exact game for 20 years, I'm sorry folks but its just not that good. It's an okay game, but the physics and mechanics are boring IMHO.
    Aquila Draco
    #72 - 2012-03-13 18:29:55 UTC
    Leto Aramaus wrote:
    Aquila Draco wrote:
    @ OP

    You have hit the target with this thread.
    You have hit the target soo hard that only ppl that are against everything can argue with you.



    Heh. Even if you're being sarcastic I like to think that I have. Nobody else seems to though, I guess EVE is just not ready to evolve into it's next form yet, because none of the players or the devs want it to. I really do hope it's soon though (couple years), I would hate to see EVE stay the same exact game for 20 years, I'm sorry folks but its just not that good. It's an okay game, but the physics and mechanics are boring IMHO.



    I am not sarcastic at all.
    If EVE don't evolve in some direction, it will be dead.
    EVE is stuck in 1990s when its production started and it cant survive like that any longer.

    I'll past here one post from one guy in WiS thread, its about WiS but can be applied on any way of EVEs grow or lack of it:
    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=922804#post922804


    Crucis Cassiopeiae wrote:

    How you ppl can not understand... there is no EVE or WoD of DUST...
    There is only CCP - the development studio.
    They use tech they have or can buy for what ever they think will gain them more money.
    All avatar and indor graphic is made for WoD and EVE have free tech that EVE would not got on its own. Its too $$$ tech to develop so that its only used for old game.
    Yea... we must realize that -> EVE is old and look at other games that are old as EVE - either they are dead or there is successor on the way.
    Because that EVE need something new or it will be dead.

    You can say that EVE have 300.000/400.000 accounts so it can live long time with that. Well, look what you write to other players in game when they say that minerals they mine are free. OPPORTUNITY COST - if you invest your time in something and there is something that can get you more money for your time you loose money. There is moment in future when CCP will see that there is better new things to invest hundreds of devs and their time then in OLD EVE, and EVE is dead then.
    You, dont letting eve to grow into the new areas to attract new players, are killing EVE. You are killing years of your time that you invested in this game. You are killing your money that you payed for game time.

    There is only one direction, known to us, in which EVE can grow and that is WiS.
    And there is tech being developed for other game that can make that happen.
    Why are you dumb and not letting EVE to live and use that tech?
    Why you want EVE dead?

    And many ppl like WiS.
    Many ppl want WiS.
    Many ppl need WiS to play EVE.
    So why not give CCP support to make EVE what they want to make from eve - Sci-Fi simulator - and make EVE Forever?

    But, i know, there is small part of ppl that are afraid of new things, new ppl, new gameplay and want to things stay how they are. (And some ppl believed them in what ever they were telling them.)
    But...
    Well... thats impossible.
    If you dont grow, you die.
    Law of the stronger.


    (its late here and i wrote this in half a sleep so i hope that you understand what i want to say.)


    p.s.
    I know that now i will be attacked my some ppl that many ppl leaved game because of WiS.
    I said many times that if they have any evidence of that, show it, but they just love empty talk.
    Ppl left because of golden ammo talk, but i don't have strenght to talk about that again.


    ... stuff ...



    EVE needs to grow, change, get his successor (EVE 2) or it will die.
    CCP will see that it can make more money with new horse then with investing in old horse. And then EVE is dead and all time we invested in it.
    But, its not only CCP guilty, its players too.
    You see how much players rage every time CCP change something?
    Players of EVE are one of the most childish communities i saw and are afraid of anything new because it can attract new players and then they will not be special any more in their heads.
    And with that attitude they are killing EVE.
    Leto Aramaus
    Black Fox Marauders
    Pen Is Out
    #73 - 2012-03-13 21:52:59 UTC
    Well said Aquila, I can't say the same for the guy you quoted though... that post of his was barely intelligible, but from what I could understand he seems to share my sentiment for a change needed in EVE.

    I think the major changes I proposed can be slowly implemented and not require a complete abandonment of the current EVE, but yes there would be a lack of support for a while if CCP started creating a new engine for us to play on.

    I can't agree more with the fact that the EVE playerbase is some of the most childish and stubborn I have ever seen. And that's quite evident by how quick people are to hate not only my ideas for changing EVE, but ANY ideas for changing EVE.

    CCP if you are even considering evolving this game into the next generation, hire ME, and I will help your clueless devs come up with a new concept, as it seems the only things they can do are add game items and fix bugs. I'm sure this is actually because they, just like most of the players, don't want to build a new version of EVE, but come on.. isn't it about time?

    James Amril-Kesh
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #74 - 2012-03-13 22:05:54 UTC
    We're not childish, you two just don't get it.

    Enjoying the rain today? ;)

    mxzf
    Shovel Bros
    #75 - 2012-03-13 22:09:44 UTC
    Leto Aramaus wrote:
    CCP if you are even considering evolving this game into the next generation, hire ME, and I will help your clueless devs come up with a new concept, as it seems the only things they can do are add game items and fix bugs. I'm sure this is actually because they, just like most of the players, don't want to build a new version of EVE, but come on.. isn't it about time?


    Because insulting a company and claiming that you have the answers to everything (despite the clear responses to the contrary) is the best way to get hired by said company.
    Leto Aramaus
    Black Fox Marauders
    Pen Is Out
    #76 - 2012-03-13 22:23:25 UTC
    James Amril-Kesh wrote:
    We're not childish, you two just don't get it.



    Get what? EVE? How great it really is? Sorry, it's just not.

    Quote:
    Because insulting a company and claiming that you have the answers to everything (despite the clear responses to the contrary) is the best way to get hired by said company.


    Such constructive input from both of you...

    because I definitely actually expected them to hire me.

    Here is a nice little quote from the features and ideas discussion rules:

    Quote:
    Thus a couple ground rules:
    1) This is a breeding ground for ideas. If someone has an idea, listen to it. If you don't like it, think about why. Constructive feedback is good. Posting "That's an awful idea," is not constructive.


    Now I'm not saying I'm totally innocent of this, but I at least make an effort. If you have no input, as to whether I am right or wrong, just get off the thread. If you disagree, take the time to make some points, please... I want to hear them.

    Alkaza Minin
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #77 - 2012-03-14 01:37:47 UTC
    You said you wanted a new eve. Devs tried to give us that, and are still kinda trying, with Incarna and WiS. While they may have botched their first try, giving us a little teaser room to walk around in, they are still working on it. But I'll assume that you want more space stuff, like most eve players. Have you not heard about wormholes, sovereignty, POS's, all the new ships, the graphics upgrades, the industiral addition, the change in maps, new modules being added, all that stuff thats changed since day 1? I may not have been there, but in my short time of playing the game has changed. Its constantly changing, evgery update gives us something. Yes the changes may not be in one giant package and labelled as a new game, but they have been given to us, slowly and over time. The game now and what it was are two very different games. They have different looks, different activities, different ships, hell, even different tactics. The game we play now is Eve 2, just under the old label, which has been given a graphical update itself.
    Now, the next things we know we're getting are a link to Dust 514, and fleshing out the interior of staions. While I agree, space barbies shouldn't take over and be the main point of playing Eve, but CCP has got to give us more to do. Sitting in a station, waiting for a fleet op to begin, waiting for your planets cycles to run out, waiting for your manufacturing or research timers to finish, and mining are incredibly boring tasks. How I see WiS working is something for us to do while sitting in stations. Make minigames, multiplayer ones that link to other people anywhere else in Eve, make things where we can watch stuff going on on the other side of the map. Just give us more to do, like youve been asking for, even though there is so much to do in Eve already.

    WoW holds your hand until end game, and gives you a cookie whether you win or lose. EVE not only takes your cookie, but laughs at you for bringing one in the first place...

    Leto Aramaus
    Black Fox Marauders
    Pen Is Out
    #78 - 2012-03-14 01:48:33 UTC
    Alkaza Minin wrote:
    You said you wanted a new eve. Devs tried to give us that, and are still kinda trying, with Incarna and WiS. While they may have botched their first try, giving us a little teaser room to walk around in, they are still working on it. But I'll assume that you want more space stuff, like most eve players. Have you not heard about wormholes, sovereignty, POS's, all the new ships, the graphics upgrades, the industiral addition, the change in maps, new modules being added, all that stuff thats changed since day 1? I may not have been there, but in my short time of playing the game has changed. Its constantly changing, evgery update gives us something. Yes the changes may not be in one giant package and labelled as a new game, but they have been given to us, slowly and over time. The game now and what it was are two very different games. They have different looks, different activities, different ships, hell, even different tactics. The game we play now is Eve 2, just under the old label, which has been given a graphical update itself.
    Now, the next things we know we're getting are a link to Dust 514, and fleshing out the interior of staions. While I agree, space barbies shouldn't take over and be the main point of playing Eve, but CCP has got to give us more to do. Sitting in a station, waiting for a fleet op to begin, waiting for your planets cycles to run out, waiting for your manufacturing or research timers to finish, and mining are incredibly boring tasks. How I see WiS working is something for us to do while sitting in stations. Make minigames, multiplayer ones that link to other people anywhere else in Eve, make things where we can watch stuff going on on the other side of the map. Just give us more to do, like youve been asking for, even though there is so much to do in Eve already.



    No man I'm sorry but walking in stations doesn't count as far as I'm concerned. What I'm talking about here is changing the spaceship gameplay, not adding a stupid and useless human ambulation simulator. Like I said in this post, If they were to make WiS an amazing 3rd person shooter then I fully support it, but just putting mini games and bars to walk around in... well I'm not against it, but that doesn't change anything with the actual gameplay of EVE (the spaceship part).

    You just repeated what so many posters have said, and even I said, in my OP. Yes we have gotten lots of content updates and graphics updates, that make EVE much cooler and more fun, but the point of my post is that I think it's time EVE update its core mechanics. Namely propulsion and the interface/view of what you see and how you play based on that information. I feel like nobody is actually getting that point.

    You say the game now is very different than it was, and in ways it is, but I'm talking about the basic mechanics, why is nobody hearing that?
    Herold Oldtimer
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #79 - 2012-03-15 11:36:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Herold Oldtimer
    I have a bit of trouble deciding on what you want. You want to change the core of the game whitch is a very broad spectre, but you wont reveal excactly what it is that you want to change, just something. And you also seem to agree with most of the counterarguments presented to you, whitch again is not excactly revealing what it is you want to change.

    If you want to make EVE into a space-shooter, then I am opposed to this since EVE is way mutch more than just a generic space-shooter.

    CCP is also constantly trying to improve on all aspects of the game, and they do this every year. So I might suggest trying another game for a couple of years, I've heard that X3 is very good. And then come back to possibly a new game.
    Leto Aramaus
    Black Fox Marauders
    Pen Is Out
    #80 - 2012-03-15 13:58:01 UTC
    Herold Oldtimer wrote:
    I have a bit of trouble deciding on what you want. You want to change the core of the game whitch is a very broad spectre, but you wont reveal excactly what it is that you want to change, just something. And you also seem to agree with most of the counterarguments presented to you, whitch again is not excactly revealing what it is you want to change.

    If you want to make EVE into a space-shooter, then I am opposed to this since EVE is way mutch more than just a generic space-shooter.

    CCP is also constantly trying to improve on all aspects of the game, and they do this every year. So I might suggest trying another game for a couple of years, I've heard that X3 is very good. And then come back to possibly a new game.



    If you're interested Herold, go through the entire thread and read my secondary posts, I go into much more detail than in my OP.

    At first in my OP I said this thread was not about specifics, just raising awareness that EVE should be updated, but since so many people asked for my specific ideas, I listed a few out in some of my posts.

    I do indeed reveal exactly what it is I want to change, the propulsion mechanics and HUD/interface of EVE.

    I believe page 2 has my post on the details if you'd like to check it out.