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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

First post First post
Author
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1861 - 2012-02-03 18:54:27 UTC
thoth rothschild wrote:
i think they are done with gallente and now focus on the issues listed in the csm minutes and the fan fest.

I know I'm repeating myself but CPP's communication is the epic fail of this century...
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1862 - 2012-02-03 20:36:15 UTC
Hamox wrote:
thoth rothschild wrote:
i think they are done with gallente and now focus on the issues listed in the csm minutes and the fan fest.

I know I'm repeating myself but CPP's communication is the epic fail of this century...


Definitely.

Hello, CCP? Paying customer here wanting to help improve your product: Minmatar Online.

Hello?
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1863 - 2012-02-05 06:38:54 UTC
it would be really nice to know what ccp intends to do next to balance ships
cuz after the drake nerf everyone will be using minmatar and tengu
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1864 - 2012-02-05 20:18:20 UTC
CCP hs promised to read this thread...
@ CCP: If you read this, please reply, one short sentence is enough. Just so that we know you are still there.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#1865 - 2012-02-06 08:10:07 UTC
they read this thread and recently they even boosted null wich is totally awesome now
the only thing that is a bit weak on hybrid side are maybe medium rails wich are only used for snipers HACs and the problem there is more on the ships that have to use them than the weapon the eagle is bad and the deimos is not designed for that role
Luscius Uta
#1866 - 2012-02-06 11:29:15 UTC
I like the null boost, but I think that a spike boost is also necessary as it's got absurdly long range at the cost of rather low damage, which makes faction ammo still superior in most cases. I'm sure that most people would trade lower range for better damage, for example I would reduce the optimal bonus to 40-50% and increase the damage by 20-25%.

Next thing about rails is that 150/250/425mm rails are not superior enough to their 125/200/350mm equivalents to justify fitting compromises (assuming you can't fit them without compromises, of course), so a 3-5% RoF increase would come handy.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.

Pinky Denmark
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1867 - 2012-02-06 13:29:37 UTC
The tier 3 guns have never been supposed to be far superior too their tier 2 guns... They are offering a little better range and dps in return for higher fitting, more cap usage and worse tracking.
This game would get pretty boring if only the top tier guns were usefull and in my opinion the 3 top tier short range systems have too good tracking with the tier 1 systems having too little dps and tracking compared.

Pinky
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1868 - 2012-02-06 22:11:09 UTC
To mare wrote:
they read this thread and recently they even boosted null wich is totally awesome now
the only thing that is a bit weak on hybrid side are maybe medium rails wich are only used for snipers HACs and the problem there is more on the ships that have to use them than the weapon the eagle is bad and the deimos is not designed for that role



Why is it the the Diemost has to be pidgeon holed like that? Not designed for that role? I agree with you, but I'm sick of that problem with Gallente ships. You have no problem making a Hurricane a close in killer with AC's. You have no problem making a Hurricane a very effective long range killer with Arty. But try that with a Brutix, or a Mrym, or a Ishkur or a Diemost etc etc. Gallente ships and rails need some work so that either option is available. The platforms should be flexible enough to fully support a wide range of fits in my opinion. I don't know, I'm just going to stop trying to be creative to make Gallente work and go winmatar.
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1869 - 2012-02-07 05:42:38 UTC
its funny how all those trades boughtout all vindicators to practicly double there prise and now realize that it wont work out and the price is falling again

so yeah winmatar is the way to go
To mare
Advanced Technology
#1870 - 2012-02-07 08:01:52 UTC
Mariner6 wrote:
To mare wrote:
they read this thread and recently they even boosted null wich is totally awesome now
the only thing that is a bit weak on hybrid side are maybe medium rails wich are only used for snipers HACs and the problem there is more on the ships that have to use them than the weapon the eagle is bad and the deimos is not designed for that role



Why is it the the Diemost has to be pidgeon holed like that? Not designed for that role? I agree with you, but I'm sick of that problem with Gallente ships. You have no problem making a Hurricane a close in killer with AC's. You have no problem making a Hurricane a very effective long range killer with Arty. But try that with a Brutix, or a Mrym, or a Ishkur or a Diemost etc etc. Gallente ships and rails need some work so that either option is available. The platforms should be flexible enough to fully support a wide range of fits in my opinion. I don't know, I'm just going to stop trying to be creative to make Gallente work and go winmatar.

no T2 ships are specialized ships and the deimos its not meant to be a sniper in the same way you cant be a sniper with a vagabond or a sacrilege.
this leave gall w/o a sniper hac true
Pinky Denmark
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1871 - 2012-02-07 08:46:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Denmark
Still waiting for feedback... But tbh Deimos are no worse than other T2 Heavy Assault Ships. Being a short range brawler just gets the living s*** kicked out of you because CCP doesn't want to look into the minmatar ships yet.
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1872 - 2012-02-07 09:20:31 UTC  |  Edited by: thoth rothschild
Deimos is more part of the

HAC
Command Ship
Interdictor
EEW Frig


problem. These ships struggle with survival.
There are as usual some exceptions.

The Gallente Problem is still significant. Range, speed and support of minmatar still favors them in most cases.
This might be due to tracking enhancers and armor tanking penalty.
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1873 - 2012-02-07 19:14:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Hamox
Hmm let me think about it:
Minmatar has AC for short and Arty for long.
Amarr have lazors for short and uber-lazors for long...
Caldari have nasty missles for long and assault missles for short range and "in theorie" rails for long...
Gallente has Blasters for short and... ... erm... ... well... ...aa, now I know: Drones for long range! :P

You see, problem solved.
If you find some irony you can keep it!

Edit:
Oh Gallente have also Sentry Drones for uber-long sniping mega damage with Ishtar, so you can use Ishtar for short and long range!
Just grab some omnidirectional tracking links :D
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1874 - 2012-02-08 06:48:55 UTC
thats a bad choise with sentry drones

ur making urself immobile and most likely u will loose ur main weapons faster the u can destroy ur opponent
if u choose to move away

if not ur loosing alot of dps by scooping and releasing them

drone ships need a boost to drone damage and the ability to have sentrys fallow them to be usefull
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1875 - 2012-02-08 07:27:20 UTC
it was irony ;)
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#1876 - 2012-02-08 12:14:27 UTC
Luscius Uta wrote:
I like the null boost, but I think that a spike boost is also necessary as it's got absurdly long range at the cost of rather low damage, which makes faction ammo still superior in most cases. I'm sure that most people would trade lower range for better damage, for example I would reduce the optimal bonus to 40-50% and increase the damage by 20-25%.

Next thing about rails is that 150/250/425mm rails are not superior enough to their 125/200/350mm equivalents to justify fitting compromises (assuming you can't fit them without compromises, of course), so a 3-5% RoF increase would come handy.


How can you say Spike has an absurd distance when it's clearly not the case? -Tremor has the same range bonus+tracking bonus ^^

Double TE/TC +2 Sebo Tornado: target 242km ammo range 238 (meh)
Now just look at how many low slots/med you can take in mighty mael to do the same and then tell me spike has insane range because I can make the Mael shoot far enough and with such alpha strike all you would do is Shocked

Low dps? -hell yes, freacking yes.
Absurd range? -no, I will never agree on this one.

Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1877 - 2012-02-09 21:55:33 UTC
Hybrids still need help. Allow me to explain why:


  • Null should give 50/50, not 40/40, at least for medium and large hybrid turrets. This puts ranges more on par with comparable sizes of scorch and autos loaded with RF ammo coupled with TE falloff bonuses. Proj is still cap-free and can choose damage type, and lasers are still dominant in optimal and provide instant ammo swap, so hybrids are STILL lacking even if you give blasters "even" ranges. Still, it's a step in the right direction.

  • Railguns are still lackluster. Increased damage is definitely noticable but I think the core issue is that most hybrid vessels just don't bring anything to the table. If you want to balance hybrids properly, you have to uniquely compliment the vessels designed to use them with some defensive mechanism:


    • amarr ships typically provide staggering ehp
    • minmatar ships typically provide speed/nano
    • caldari ships occasionally provide (read: drake/tengu) respectable cap-free shield-buffer ships (although not significant for hybrid vessels)
    • gallente ships provide ZILCH for defense
    • survivability issue is exasperated when looking at t2 ships: omnitanking amarr/minmatar t2 ships is a breeze, not so much on t2 caldari/gallente


NO ONE wants to fly a ship that cannot be effectively fit to be "survivable." I can nano the hell out of canes and vagabonds and get all sorts of skirmish options. I can plate the hell out of absolutions and mallers and take one hell of a beating, or even better, wait for my RR buddies to show up, providing them with enough buffer AND resists to make their support elementary. Why would I EVER want to fly a hybrid boat? Where's the incentive? What's the tradeoff for using hybrid turrets, turrets which STILL suffer the most handicaps of any weapon in the game?Hello, CCP?
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#1878 - 2012-02-10 08:03:32 UTC
I feel rails and blasters are actually in a good spot for frigate and destroyer sized hulls.

I feel like armor tanking and blasters for cruiser and larger hulls were never really meant to be, which is why i shield tank my hybrid (both caldari and gallente) boats.
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1879 - 2012-02-10 16:33:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Magosian
Super Chair wrote:
I feel rails and blasters are actually in a good spot for frigate and destroyer sized hulls.

I feel like armor tanking and blasters for cruiser and larger hulls were never really meant to be, which is why i shield tank my hybrid (both caldari and gallente) boats.


I end up doing the same thing, and I think it displays the issue very plainly and obviously. Why do hybrid gunboats perform better with shield buffers, yet most of these ships have more low slots than mid slots AND typically get armor rep bonuses which end up not being utilized?

Even a new player can see how Gallente ships and hybrid weaponry are at odds with each other. Why is this so hard to fix?
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1880 - 2012-02-10 19:20:03 UTC
galente frigs are only good becouse they can get in range fast

and the limited slot number dosnt give that mutch of an advantage to other frigs in terms of fitting


so u can clearly see why anything bigger then a destroyer is a fail for galente
they cant get fast enough into range and some modules give a bigger advantage to other races then to galente


and the curent ballance is so mutch out of balance that all the ships need to be looked at
and not only some few shipclasses or designes

and if some people are talking about the galente role then it was taken by minmatar over the last 5 years
short-middle range annihilator and long range sniper
yes galente was initially designed for that role but minmatar have been patch after patch put into it and made better
at almost anything gallente could do
and now with all those new shipdesigns brought up we have lost balance in gameplay

in my few tech 1-2 shoul have similar dps, and only be better in traking and have lesser fitting requierements
and tech 1-2-3 or different ship tiers should be only better by a very small % and with higher tier or tech should have some
special bonus or a slight increase in some atributes like speed or tank
now the differences are so huge that someone flys a tech 1 frigate only for takling or cyno like a throw away ship

there is alot more on my mind but its pointless saying anything here