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Oi, Oi, Oi - CONCORD Ships

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#141 - 2017-06-16 22:14:24 UTC
Valdr Auduin wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Mizhir wrote:
It is legit. Falcon has even confirmed it is working as intentional: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/6h8e8d/eve_news_fanfest_pacifier_enforcer_distribution/diweh3k/?context=10000

:CCP Logic:

All the best to Falcon and the rest of the Community Management team over the next few days.

Last weekend will look like champagne and strawberries compared to the rage about to come.

Ah, you know what they say, the biggest turds always float to the top of the bowl. That or they must really despise everyone on reddit. ED: Going over how they tend to react here and on reddit, I think the second case my be the truth.

HAve we gotten a professional response from CCP personnel yet? I'm playing the actual game and don't want to read through another trilogy.


See that thing at the top that says First Dev post? Click that. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#142 - 2017-06-16 22:17:24 UTC
Steve Spooner wrote:
I think I am legitimately done with the game. Why bother playing the game and making isk when you can pull stuff like this and make so much more?

probably too late, but, can I have your stuff?

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#143 - 2017-06-16 22:18:28 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:
CCP doesn't have to go that far, that would be bananas. CCP can easily just drain accounts into the negative zone, no-one else except the guilty parties needs to be targeted.


So no problem then. The guilty parties sell off all the toys to their alt's, then transfer the cash from these sales to other alt's or buy assets. And they get off scot free. You can't truly believe that if someone who has set up a sophisticated system of farming alts (because the same people that profit from this the most are the same ones ghost training) does not have an equally sophisticated system of moving the cash.


No, CCP can follow the money on these things.

So:

Exploiter A sells to B. B keeps the ship, CCP drains the ISK out of exploiter A's wallet.
Exploiter A transfers the ISK to Alt C? C's wallet is drained.

This is what CCP does when people buy ISK illegally. They drain the wallet of the person who bought the ISK. If that person buys stuff they do not drain the wallet's of those players, just the guy who broke the EULA which is how people get negative ISK balances.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#144 - 2017-06-17 05:36:45 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:
CCP doesn't have to go that far, that would be bananas. CCP can easily just drain accounts into the negative zone, no-one else except the guilty parties needs to be targeted.


So no problem then. The guilty parties sell off all the toys to their alt's, then transfer the cash from these sales to other alt's or buy assets. And they get off scot free. You can't truly believe that if someone who has set up a sophisticated system of farming alts (because the same people that profit from this the most are the same ones ghost training) does not have an equally sophisticated system of moving the cash.


No, CCP can follow the money on these things.

So:

Exploiter A sells to B. B keeps the ship, CCP drains the ISK out of exploiter A's wallet.
Exploiter A transfers the ISK to Alt C? C's wallet is drained.

This is what CCP does when people buy ISK illegally. They drain the wallet of the person who bought the ISK. If that person buys stuff they do not drain the wallet's of those players, just the guy who broke the EULA which is how people get negative ISK balances.



And like I posted before, what happens when exploiter A sells the ship to B, then buys assets from those proceeds from player C, who is innocent? Who, precisely, does CCP take the ISK from, especially if Player B has lost the ship, and Player C has in turn bought assets from players D, E, and F with the cash he got from player A?
Expendable Unit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#145 - 2017-06-17 15:14:23 UTC
useless
Expendable Unit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#146 - 2017-06-17 15:19:02 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Hey guys,

A couple of clarifications here. I've also posted these elsewhere, but making sure they're also here for clarity
Smile

Firstly as has been said before, these ships are going to become available more openly pretty soon (in the next few weeks or so) as part of in game rewards, and will be available in future as part of offers, promotions and via other means.

In addition to this, I’ve just been speaking with our customer support team, and they’ve confirmed that as part of the reprimands issued against those who’ve been abusing Ghost Training, these ships, or the ISK that abusers of Ghost Training have received from the sales of them, will be confiscated as part of any reprimands that are issued.

We recognize the fact that you guys are concerned about this, and wholly accept that this is on us. The intention is not at all to reward anyone for abuse of Ghost Training, and as such we’ll make sure that any reprimands that are issued include removal of this stuff.

Apologies for getting you guys all riled up. It’s been a tough week, but we’ll make sure that justice is served.

In addition to this, a couple of our amazing customer support guys are going to come in and clarify your concerns with a few answers over what to expect in terms of how we’ll be investigating this.

Hope this helps assuage at least some of the concern.


This is wrong. Let people make isk by all means necessary !!!! If a person can make isk in the time that others need months, that person should not be punished, he/she should be congratulated !!!!! Does not matter how unfair it seems or is, this is EVE, where weaklings have no place! Let the crybabies cry, but don't become an EA game....Whoever is making a fortune now should be rewarded, not punished !!!
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#147 - 2017-06-17 16:12:15 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Hey guys,

A couple of clarifications here. I've also posted these elsewhere, but making sure they're also here for clarity
Smile

Firstly as has been said before, these ships are going to become available more openly pretty soon (in the next few weeks or so) as part of in game rewards, and will be available in future as part of offers, promotions and via other means.

In addition to this, I’ve just been speaking with our customer support team, and they’ve confirmed that as part of the reprimands issued against those who’ve been abusing Ghost Training, these ships, or the ISK that abusers of Ghost Training have received from the sales of them, will be confiscated as part of any reprimands that are issued.

We recognize the fact that you guys are concerned about this, and wholly accept that this is on us. The intention is not at all to reward anyone for abuse of Ghost Training, and as such we’ll make sure that any reprimands that are issued include removal of this stuff.

Apologies for getting you guys all riled up. It’s been a tough week, but we’ll make sure that justice is served.

In addition to this, a couple of our amazing customer support guys are going to come in and clarify your concerns with a few answers over what to expect in terms of how we’ll be investigating this.

Hope this helps assuage at least some of the concern.


So, it has been over 48 hours since this post went up about " a couple of our amazing customer support guys are going to come in and clarify your concerns with a few answers over what to expect in terms of how we’ll be investigating this."

Don't see any activity from said customer support guys.
Precisely when are are these CCP employees going to answer questions?
Has CCP frozen all transactions regarding these ships, to at least slow down the laggards from cashing out? The smart ones sold off within hours, and have already laundered their ISK through multiple transactions and players.
Another smart play would be for CCP to remove ALL these ships, temporarily, from the game.

Has any of this been done?
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#148 - 2017-06-18 06:19:31 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


Not quite.

Okay, so alpha account gets a free ship. Guy logs in and transfers it to his main, who then sells it. The main account is going to get dinged. Not the alpha account. CCP knows how to follow the money, this is how it works when people buy ISK illegally.

We will see. I'm just sayin'... it doesn't go down like you think. They don't trace snip.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Uthgaard
Because ISK
#149 - 2017-06-18 08:10:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Uthgaard
"Following the money" sounds simple in a theoretical situation, but since CCP chose to take the weekend off rather than stanch the bleeding immediately, it's beyond repair. Every hour the impact ripples through to more characters and the lines blur further. And in a game where account creation costs nothing and is trivial (only need 1 email address), it will propagate through the playerbase faster than you can even query the logs.

I'm speaking from experience, the server is a living thing. This would have been a nightmare to stop if they had frozen the accounts and tried to reverse it the same day. Now imagine trying to do it a few thousand times while the clock is ticking and more trades are happening.

Most of the exploiters will have shuffled it all through a mess of alts who were on VPNs and obfuscated it with different transaction methods. People talk a good game on the forums where they want to sound innocent, but the behavior in the logs generally shows that exploiters and RMTers are lying $#1tcakes who knew what they were doing and went to great lengths to hide it.

And since these are people who just farmed billions of SP, even a negative wallet is meaningless. Who cares when you can just inject a new character and abandon the consequences.

This is permanently lodged in the economy, that ship has sailed.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#150 - 2017-06-18 13:15:21 UTC
Uthgaard wrote:
"Following the money" sounds simple in a theoretical situation, but since CCP chose to take the weekend off rather than stanch the bleeding immediately, it's beyond repair. Every hour the impact ripples through to more characters and the lines blur further. And in a game where account creation costs nothing and is trivial (only need 1 email address), it will propagate through the playerbase faster than you can even query the logs.

I'm speaking from experience, the server is a living thing. This would have been a nightmare to stop if they had frozen the accounts and tried to reverse it the same day. Now imagine trying to do it a few thousand times while the clock is ticking and more trades are happening.

Most of the exploiters will have shuffled it all through a mess of alts who were on VPNs and obfuscated it with different transaction methods. People talk a good game on the forums where they want to sound innocent, but the behavior in the logs generally shows that exploiters and RMTers are lying $#1tcakes who knew what they were doing and went to great lengths to hide it.

And since these are people who just farmed billions of SP, even a negative wallet is meaningless. Who cares when you can just inject a new character and abandon the consequences.

This is permanently lodged in the economy, that ship has sailed.


Bingo.

But they did not take the weekend off.
I believe a number of them did appearances on the 72 hour Eveathon.
While this is a great idea for a charity, CCP could have donated $15,000 (believe the goal was to raise 12,000), then had those people who would have appeared instead working the weekend burning another $15,000 in overtime to tackle this and ghost training.

But hey, priorities......
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#151 - 2017-06-19 09:39:29 UTC
Quote:
12. Discussion of forum moderation is prohibited.

The discussion of EVE Online forum moderation actions generally leads to flaming, trolling and baiting of our ISD CCL moderators. As such, this type of discussion is strictly prohibited under the forum rules. If you have questions regarding the actions of a moderator, please file a support ticket under the Community & Forums Category.

27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.

I have removed a couple posts and those quoting them.

ISD Decoy

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
CCP Falcon
#152 - 2017-06-19 13:12:48 UTC
I've spoken further with our customer support team, and they'll be looking at this thread today.

In addition to this, here's some updated news regarding the ships.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3
Voddick
AFK
#153 - 2017-06-19 14:22:42 UTC
Nicely Done.

Also, thanks for fixing & addressing ghost training. There is no point in playing a game with crippling bugs/exploits; RL already has enough of that, which is why we come here.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#154 - 2017-06-19 14:30:35 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:
CCP doesn't have to go that far, that would be bananas. CCP can easily just drain accounts into the negative zone, no-one else except the guilty parties needs to be targeted.


So no problem then. The guilty parties sell off all the toys to their alt's, then transfer the cash from these sales to other alt's or buy assets. And they get off scot free. You can't truly believe that if someone who has set up a sophisticated system of farming alts (because the same people that profit from this the most are the same ones ghost training) does not have an equally sophisticated system of moving the cash.


No, CCP can follow the money on these things.

So:

Exploiter A sells to B. B keeps the ship, CCP drains the ISK out of exploiter A's wallet.
Exploiter A transfers the ISK to Alt C? C's wallet is drained.

This is what CCP does when people buy ISK illegally. They drain the wallet of the person who bought the ISK. If that person buys stuff they do not drain the wallet's of those players, just the guy who broke the EULA which is how people get negative ISK balances.



And like I posted before, what happens when exploiter A sells the ship to B, then buys assets from those proceeds from player C, who is innocent? Who, precisely, does CCP take the ISK from, especially if Player B has lost the ship, and Player C has in turn bought assets from players D, E, and F with the cash he got from player A?


This is all irrelevant, since CCP can follow the money. If one guy gets a zillion ships thanks to this exploit and then sells them, that's basically him doing something good for the zillion people who will now have those ships. He, as the guilty party, will just see all that money being drained from his wallet, since CCP very easily could just look up what he was doing. Everyone in your example except the guilty party is just unnecessary obfuscation.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#155 - 2017-06-19 16:36:43 UTC
Owen Levanth wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:
CCP doesn't have to go that far, that would be bananas. CCP can easily just drain accounts into the negative zone, no-one else except the guilty parties needs to be targeted.


So no problem then. The guilty parties sell off all the toys to their alt's, then transfer the cash from these sales to other alt's or buy assets. And they get off scot free. You can't truly believe that if someone who has set up a sophisticated system of farming alts (because the same people that profit from this the most are the same ones ghost training) does not have an equally sophisticated system of moving the cash.


No, CCP can follow the money on these things.

So:

Exploiter A sells to B. B keeps the ship, CCP drains the ISK out of exploiter A's wallet.
Exploiter A transfers the ISK to Alt C? C's wallet is drained.

This is what CCP does when people buy ISK illegally. They drain the wallet of the person who bought the ISK. If that person buys stuff they do not drain the wallet's of those players, just the guy who broke the EULA which is how people get negative ISK balances.



And like I posted before, what happens when exploiter A sells the ship to B, then buys assets from those proceeds from player C, who is innocent? Who, precisely, does CCP take the ISK from, especially if Player B has lost the ship, and Player C has in turn bought assets from players D, E, and F with the cash he got from player A?


This is all irrelevant, since CCP can follow the money. If one guy gets a zillion ships thanks to this exploit and then sells them, that's basically him doing something good for the zillion people who will now have those ships. He, as the guilty party, will just see all that money being drained from his wallet, since CCP very easily could just look up what he was doing. Everyone in your example except the guilty party is just unnecessary obfuscation.


And, again, no, CCP can't follow the money. You are wrong.
If the exploiter has already converted the ships into ISK, and then turn that ISK into assets, there is zero that CCP can do, unless they decide they will then wipe hard assets like ships, or a citadel, out of the game. And if the exploiter has already cleared out the alpha account, good luck following the cash. Thousands of alpha accounts, yeah right, CCP has the resources to do anything , particularly when the exploiters have a 4 or 5 day headstart.

I can just see it now: Some exploiter has taken the proceeds, and purchased a Keepstar, which he then sets up for a 100 player corp. CCP then wipes out that Keepstar because it was bought with tainted cash, and 99 innocent players get screwed with trapped assets, ruined jobs, etc.....yeah, that will go over well.
Uthgaard
Because ISK
#156 - 2017-06-19 18:03:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Uthgaard
CCP Falcon wrote:
In addition to this, here's some updated news regarding the ships.


You still don't get it. You've acknowledged the ghost training bit, but the fact is nobody likes the idea that people are rewarded for the number of accounts linked to with email address. While the ghost training was just absurd beyond measure, that was the cause for concern.

It's a meaningless and arbitrary basis for multiplying a reward, since there is no cost to create the accounts apart from the time to make them. It also creates an "account creation arms race" metagame where all of your players must make thousands of accounts to remain on equal footing.

If you want to reward one account more than another, do it in a meaningful way, such as account age or total account time subscribed.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#157 - 2017-06-19 18:10:27 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Uthgaard wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
In addition to this, here's some updated news regarding the ships.


You still don't get it.


Obviously they do get it, because the Marshall (and any comparable future promotions) will not be distributed in the same way, instead using a per-ticket, single-use code.

They made a mistake, but there's very little they could do about it now that wouldn't make things worse. They've acknowledged the mistake and have stated what they will do to avoid repeating it in the future. Seems like you're just looking for something to be indignant about, at this point.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Uthgaard
Because ISK
#158 - 2017-06-19 18:18:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Uthgaard
CCP Falcon wrote:
I've spoken further with our customer support team, and they'll be looking at this thread today.


Will support also be reviewing the deleted posts? Because the most relevant parts of the discussion have been moderated into oblivion, citing irrelevant rules against discussing prospective (not announced and confirmed) exploits.

You might not like what we have to say, but we say it because we care about and are invested in the future of the game.

When discussion is outlawed, only outlaws will discuss. That's why you have such a hard time getting any useful feedback on these forums.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#159 - 2017-06-19 18:36:48 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:
CCP doesn't have to go that far, that would be bananas. CCP can easily just drain accounts into the negative zone, no-one else except the guilty parties needs to be targeted.


So no problem then. The guilty parties sell off all the toys to their alt's, then transfer the cash from these sales to other alt's or buy assets. And they get off scot free. You can't truly believe that if someone who has set up a sophisticated system of farming alts (because the same people that profit from this the most are the same ones ghost training) does not have an equally sophisticated system of moving the cash.


No, CCP can follow the money on these things.

So:

Exploiter A sells to B. B keeps the ship, CCP drains the ISK out of exploiter A's wallet.
Exploiter A transfers the ISK to Alt C? C's wallet is drained.

This is what CCP does when people buy ISK illegally. They drain the wallet of the person who bought the ISK. If that person buys stuff they do not drain the wallet's of those players, just the guy who broke the EULA which is how people get negative ISK balances.



And like I posted before, what happens when exploiter A sells the ship to B, then buys assets from those proceeds from player C, who is innocent? Who, precisely, does CCP take the ISK from, especially if Player B has lost the ship, and Player C has in turn bought assets from players D, E, and F with the cash he got from player A?


You drain the bad actors wallet. FFS, how hard is this to follow. Consider what you can do with a negative wallet balance. You cannot buy anything. You could maybe sell something like ore, but you probably won't be able to refine it. Your options become extremely limited when your wallet balance goes negative. You are completely over thinking this.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Uthgaard
Because ISK
#160 - 2017-06-19 18:42:27 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
You drain the bad actors wallet. FFS, how hard is this to follow. Consider what you can do with a negative wallet balance. You cannot buy anything. You could maybe sell something like ore, but you probably won't be able to refine it. Your options become extremely limited when your wallet balance goes negative. You are completely over thinking this.


You're underthinking it, this was addressed yesterday.

Uthgaard wrote:
And since these are people who just farmed billions of SP, even a negative wallet is meaningless. Who cares when you can just inject a new character and abandon the consequences.