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Oi, Oi, Oi - CONCORD Ships

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Indahmawar Fazmarai
#121 - 2017-06-16 06:58:42 UTC
Selphentine wrote:
Falcon just said its going to be removed. You can stop posting that its unfair now, as long as it actually happens.


The shady ones yes. But that doesn't sorts that setting up 150+ alpha accounts on your favorite e-mail account is something you should do for the next lottery ticket. A paid account can't become any less valuable than being shafted for being 1 PAID instead of 150 FREE.

It was as simple as "one set per email account" but oh they just had to allow CCP Bigthumbs* near the thing...


*CCP Bigthumbs is a fictional character who, among other things, named a installation file of EVE Online exactly as a core file of OS (boot.ini), decided what Incarna should be relased like, reinforced the wrong node in a massive battle and disconnected everyone, released a online shop with delivery cost more expensive thna the actual items, and so and so. He's a walking shoddiness.
Salvos Rhoska
#122 - 2017-06-16 07:02:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Erik Valensteed wrote:
Taking isk/ships/etc. from the customer because you are at fault is inappropriate in my opinion.


They where never meant to/entitled to receive that extra in the first place. Wasnt part of the deal.
It was a mistake on CCPs part, from which some customers received undue equity over other customers.

Ghost trainers wont lose anything they ever paid for, and CCP shoulders the cost of enacting the return of the excess.

Furthermore, all digital/intellectual property in EVE is owned by CCP and they have complete control over all of it.

Nobody "paid" for ghost training. Its not part of the contract.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Erik Valensteed
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2017-06-16 10:57:31 UTC
You guys are seriously calling people "dregs of society," who you feel were unjust in the way they played the game. Uhmm, it's a game and you are taking this way too seriously. I hope that you have the same passion in real life. Like, write the newspaper about individuals who use social systems for handouts when they are healthy enough to work; or call your legislative bodies to complain about those who expect free housing and college without contributing anything to society. If you don't reflect this same "righteous outrage" in the real world, you should really reflect on who/what you are.
Dirty-Rotten-Pirate
Rancer Tourism Association
#124 - 2017-06-16 11:09:32 UTC
Erik Valensteed wrote:
..I hope that you have the same passion in real life.....


Its funny you say that - actually my actions in Eve and real life do mirror themselves.

I love murdering innocent and unsuspecting people in Eve whilst rejoicing in their suffering, and in real life there is nothing I love better than.. um. hmm.

I better shut up.

Big smile
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#125 - 2017-06-16 11:37:31 UTC
Gogela wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
*snip*

In addition to this, a couple of our amazing customer support guys are going to come in and clarify your concerns with a few answers over what to expect in terms of how we’ll be investigating this.

*snip*


Yah... the follow-through it the tough part. Removing ships and ISK is the kicker. This was a massive screw-up but I don't think it's something that will actually get fixed.

I would bet some alt-alpha accounts will be 300 billion in the red. Those accounts will just get scrapped. I would be pretty surprised if any real ships or ISK were confiscated. -300 billion (or whatever) x however many alt-alpha accounts and the problem will be marked "fixed".

I hope I'm wrong... but I've been here a while and see how things get "fixed".

Meh. This game is giving off a real pay-to-win vibe lately. Can't say I care for it.


You are completely correct. CCP is going to be completely overwhelmed by the money laundering going on with this, and a ton of innocent people will get hurt, while many many guilty ones will laugh all the way to the bank.

What happens to joe player who bought in good faith one of these soon-to-be confiscated ships?
How does CCP give him his ISK back if the guilty party has already has moved that ISK into other assets that were purchased by other innocent players? Does that transaction also get reversed out?

Here is a likely scenario:

Player A, the guilty party, sells a bunch of these ships to Players B, C, D, E, and F, all innocents.
Player A, then uses that ISK to buy 20 carriers combined from Players G, H, and I, also innocents, except for player G.
Player G is an alt of player A though.

Player H, who sold say, 5 carriers, to player A, but has now sunk that cash into multiple other projects, and has very little cash in his account. Oh, BTW, those projects he sunk that cash into involved transactions with players J, K and L.

Just how far is CCP willing to go to rollback the money laundering that is clearly underway?

Oh, and Player A, with his alt Player G, who maybe sold 10 of those original 20 carriers to player A, well, he knows that this gets way too tangled for CCP, and laughs his way to the bank.

CCP will never, ever tell us the results of this latest screw-up, because we all realize that every minute this goes on, the more impossible it will be to follow the money and roll back transactions. It is no surprise that CCP is begging people to turn themselves in, because CCP simply doesn't have the people to catch and punish all involved.

Plus, I am not even beginning to get into the skill portion of this. Since the game went pay-to-win, skills are an asset as well, but pulling illicit skills out of an innocent's head is going to be a PR nightmare.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#126 - 2017-06-16 12:03:58 UTC
CCP doesn't have to go that far, that would be bananas. CCP can easily just drain accounts into the negative zone, no-one else except the guilty parties needs to be targeted.
Erik Valensteed
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2017-06-16 12:15:18 UTC
Dirty-Rotten-Pirate wrote:
Erik Valensteed wrote:
..I hope that you have the same passion in real life.....


Its funny you say that - actually my actions in Eve and real life do mirror themselves.

I love murdering innocent and unsuspecting people in Eve whilst rejoicing in their suffering, and in real life there is nothing I love better than.. um. hmm.

I better shut up.

Big smile




Rofl, so, are you saying that your rant is "in character?" If so, I am impressed and take back everything I said. I didn't realize that you were role-playing. Well played, well played.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#128 - 2017-06-16 12:17:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Dinsdale Pirannha
Owen Levanth wrote:
CCP doesn't have to go that far, that would be bananas. CCP can easily just drain accounts into the negative zone, no-one else except the guilty parties needs to be targeted.


So no problem then. The guilty parties sell off all the toys to their alt's, then transfer the cash from these sales to other alt's or buy assets. And they get off scot free. You can't truly believe that if someone who has set up a sophisticated system of farming alts (because the same people that profit from this the most are the same ones ghost training) does not have an equally sophisticated system of moving the cash.
Erik Valensteed
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#129 - 2017-06-16 12:21:46 UTC
I wish I would have had the resources to take advanatage of ghost training, but I did not. But I am also the guy who put in "money cheats" in games like command and conquer. I guess you righteous lot never did that. Anyway, if I had, what I would do now is set up a bunch of alpha clones not tied to my account and mine some Velds, put one unit on the market for a billion isk, and have my main purchase it. Distribute my assets in that manner. Then when you start pulling my "ill gotten gains," there would be none. You could not pull isk from players I purchased items from, or you would have to pull isk from EVERY PLAYER WHO EVER BENEFITTED from my "isk farm." I hope none of the righteous few ever sold anything to those dastardly "ghost trainers."

Oh, and this post is completely a role-play of what my character would be saying
Erik Valensteed
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2017-06-16 12:30:31 UTC
Erik Valensteed wrote:
I wish I would have had the resources to take advanatage of ghost training, but I did not. But I am also the guy who put in "money cheats" in games like command and conquer. I guess you righteous lot never did that. Anyway, if I had, what I would do now is set up a bunch of alpha clones not tied to my account and mine some Velds, put one unit on the market for a billion isk, and have my main purchase it. Distribute my assets in that manner. Then when you start pulling my "ill gotten gains," there would be none. You could not pull isk from players I purchased items from, or you would have to pull isk from EVERY PLAYER WHO EVER BENEFITTED from my "isk farm." I hope none of the righteous few ever sold anything to those dastardly "ghost trainers."

Oh, and this post is completely a role-play of what my character would be saying


So after my long rant, I read that the three people above me said basically the same thing. My troll game is off kilter
Buggs LeRoach
DHCOx
#131 - 2017-06-16 14:09:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Buggs LeRoach
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:
CCP doesn't have to go that far, that would be bananas. CCP can easily just drain accounts into the negative zone, no-one else except the guilty parties needs to be targeted.


So no problem then. The guilty parties sell off all the toys to their alt's, then transfer the cash from these sales to other alt's or buy assets. And they get off scot free. You can't truly believe that if someone who has set up a sophisticated system of farming alts (because the same people that profit from this the most are the same ones ghost training) does not have an equally sophisticated system of moving the cash.


ever try selling something , when you've got a negative wallet ? Shocked
let ccp police their game , sit back relax , and wait for the tears .
no use of you speculating on something when you have no idea how game mechanics actually work ...
Joan Maetsuycker
V.O.C. Bensdorp
#132 - 2017-06-16 14:32:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Joan Maetsuycker
the ghost farmers did get gifts for their effort of skill training and new players that take a 12 month subscription get a middle finger from CCP
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#133 - 2017-06-16 14:32:18 UTC
Buggs LeRoach wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:
CCP doesn't have to go that far, that would be bananas. CCP can easily just drain accounts into the negative zone, no-one else except the guilty parties needs to be targeted.


So no problem then. The guilty parties sell off all the toys to their alt's, then transfer the cash from these sales to other alt's or buy assets. And they get off scot free. You can't truly believe that if someone who has set up a sophisticated system of farming alts (because the same people that profit from this the most are the same ones ghost training) does not have an equally sophisticated system of moving the cash.


ever try selling something , when you've got a negative wallet ? Shocked
let ccp police their game , sit back relax , and wait for the tears .
no use of you speculating on something when you have no idea how game mechanics actually work ...


Been around a long long time.

And you are wrong, by the time CCP moves on this, the cash will be laundered through so many hands there is no way they can hurt the smart player. Sure, they can remove the ISK from the original account that had the ship awarded to it. And that might hurt the guy if it his primary omega account. But it is meaningless when the account was an alpha that was being shut down anyway, and all assets and skills have already been stripped from it by its owner, never to be used again anyway.
Dravos Tarimus
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#134 - 2017-06-16 19:06:20 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
FIX IT wrote:
ISD Max Trix wrote:

So would you like CCP to removed the ships? What is your ideal solution to this situation?


CCP could use the existing reward mechanism and hand out copies of them to every account in eve crashing the price to limit the damage (this can be done with a click of a button, you already got the ships and the gift mechanism)

Then give a different gift to each attendees, one per ticket.


Or you can watch as several dozen people become filthy rich. Wait i remember something like this from before, ahh yes, ccp has printed and handed out tech 2 bpos to their buddies. Has ccp checked who is going to benefit from this "intended" action and if they have connections to ccp employees?


Oh and that last sentence is gold. Yea i'm sure developers who could probably spawn isk into their own wallets without being caught would instead come up with a convoluted, sure to be noticed and sure to fail conspiracy plan that EVE forum posters could see a mile away lol.

It's happened before

Dravos' Diary: A Newbie's Attempts To Git Gud
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#135 - 2017-06-16 20:03:24 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Demonspawn 666 wrote:
It's all good though.....

Right now CCP will be panicking and rushing through the code to give us all one or two of these ships so they can say they listened and they are fair.

Meanwhile.......

Completely missing the point as in doing that they crash the market for the ships, making them relatively worthless and the 1% who ghost trained hundreds of accounts have already cashed in at the top of the market and got richer.


Very very well trolled CCP!
P
I can only assume that crashing the price of these ships was the intention of linking it to accounts, but Lordy, what a tone-deaf thing to do. It looks terrible to reward one person who sat in a seat at FanFest with 2 free ships, and the person next to him with 50 because he was a multi-boxer or SP farmer or whatever. Maybe if it was tied to Omega status you could try to make a case (although you would still look greedy for doing so), but as it is you have various FanFest attendees being awarded with a number of ships with a variance of one or two magnitudes, based on nothing but how many accounts they have set up which looks horribly unfair.

They should have just given 10 or 20 ships to each person if they wanted to keep the cost down initially. This unequal distribution appears unfair, actually is unfair, and serves no discernible purpose to me. Do they really want us to each make a hundred-plus empty accounts to maximize the amount of future give-aways we receive?

I can't believe no-one on the development team saw the trouble this decision was going to lead to. With human nature what is it, the uproar was entirely predictable and avoidable. They somehow managed to take a kind gesture that should have bought them goodwill and turned into another PR headache.

People will get over this minor fracas faster than some of your other recent missteps CCP, but seriously, you guys need to up your game and stop making these mistakes. You have burnt a lot of goodwill in recent years and you can't afford to waste any more with fumbles like this one.

Edit: You know, while I think we all appreciate little gifts like this from time-to-time as long as they are distributed fairly, this brouhaha underscores why CCP really should take a hands-off approach to messing with the economics of the sandbox. SKINs and vanity items are one thing, but when items with real utility and value are being spawned into the universe, CCP should be very careful that there is no appearance they are doing this unfairly. Is this the same type of dev meddling that led to the creation of the CSM in the first place?

CSM, care to comment on these recent events?


Ironically, many of those complaining about the carrier/super nerf advocated solutions that are quite arguably unfair to people who do not rat in carriers or supers, or even do not rat at all.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Valdr Auduin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#136 - 2017-06-16 20:41:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Valdr Auduin
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Mizhir wrote:
It is legit. Falcon has even confirmed it is working as intentional: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/6h8e8d/eve_news_fanfest_pacifier_enforcer_distribution/diweh3k/?context=10000

:CCP Logic:

All the best to Falcon and the rest of the Community Management team over the next few days.

Last weekend will look like champagne and strawberries compared to the rage about to come.

Ah, you know what they say, the biggest turds always float to the top of the bowl. That or they must really despise everyone on reddit. ED: Going over how they tend to react here and on reddit, I think the second case my be the truth.

HAve we gotten a professional response from CCP personnel yet? I'm playing the actual game and don't want to read through another trilogy.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#137 - 2017-06-16 21:58:48 UTC
Uthgaard wrote:
Henry Plantgenet wrote:
It's not an isk faucet though.
People get these ships -> sell them (Isk is actually removed from the game through fees.)
And isk is redistributed.


It doesn't much matter whether it was a faucet or a tidal wave. The economy is flooded.

And the isk isn't redistributed, it's further consolidated, because these are the same people who just raked in billions by selling their exploited sp. And the more they exploited that, the more ships they just got.



Uhhh...no.

This results in no money creation at all.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#138 - 2017-06-16 22:01:19 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
So they give away trillions of isk to certain players....

Business as usual.

These ships are worst pay to win example I can recall of.



Uhh, not quite. That these players might get lots of ISK selling such ships is not the same as creating the ISK de novo.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#139 - 2017-06-16 22:07:46 UTC
Erik Valensteed wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Hey guys,

A couple of clarifications here. I've also posted these elsewhere, but making sure they're also here for clarity
Smile

Firstly as has been said before, these ships are going to become available more openly pretty soon (in the next few weeks or so) as part of in game rewards, and will be available in future as part of offers, promotions and via other means.

In addition to this, I’ve just been speaking with our customer support team, and they’ve confirmed that as part of the reprimands issued against those who’ve been abusing Ghost Training, these ships, or the ISK that abusers of Ghost Training have received from the sales of them, will be confiscated as part of any reprimands that are issued.

We recognize the fact that you guys are concerned about this, and wholly accept that this is on us. The intention is not at all to reward anyone for abuse of Ghost Training, and as such we’ll make sure that any reprimands that are issued include removal of this stuff.

Apologies for getting you guys all riled up. It’s been a tough week, but we’ll make sure that justice is served.

In addition to this, a couple of our amazing customer support guys are going to come in and clarify your concerns with a few answers over what to expect in terms of how we’ll be investigating this.

Hope this helps assuage at least some of the concern.


Please help me understand something. Developers designed and programmed a game. Some of your customers, who have, one way or the other, paid at least $16 USD per month to play, per account, figured out a way to use the program in a way You did not intend or foresee. This was not done through any software hack or scam, but used the system that you designed. Now you have discovered it and decided that your paying customer base is at fault because you failed to program the system correctly. A good business model would be to say, " we did not mean for that to happen and are changing the program." No harm/no foul. Taking isk/ships/etc. from the customer because you are at fault is inappropriate in my opinion. Unless plex somehow spawns in-game, you have receive a monetary payment for every omega subscription each month. Please explain why the players who used this "exploit" are going to lose items. How did they cost your company real money? How did they compromise your product? Are you going on advise of a sound business advisor, or a group of gamers that get butt hurt over changing the formula of Mountain Dew?


OMFG....

WITF?

So, people are complaining CCP has benefitted those using a bug now deemed an exploit, and here we have somebody complaining about CCP showing up ITT and saying, "We are not going to let those who benefit from the ghost training bug keep these ships or any ISK they made selling them". Really?

Please, STFU and GTFO.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#140 - 2017-06-16 22:13:00 UTC
Gogela wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
*snip*

In addition to this, a couple of our amazing customer support guys are going to come in and clarify your concerns with a few answers over what to expect in terms of how we’ll be investigating this.

*snip*


Yah... the follow-through it the tough part. Removing ships and ISK is the kicker. This was a massive screw-up but I don't think it's something that will actually get fixed.

I would bet some alt-alpha accounts will be 300 billion in the red. Those accounts will just get scrapped. I would be pretty surprised if any real ships or ISK were confiscated. -300 billion (or whatever) x however many alt-alpha accounts and the problem will be marked "fixed".

I hope I'm wrong... but I've been here a while and see how things get "fixed".

Meh. This game is giving off a real pay-to-win vibe lately. Can't say I care for it.


Not quite.

Okay, so alpha account gets a free ship. Guy logs in and transfers it to his main, who then sells it. The main account is going to get dinged. Not the alpha account. CCP knows how to follow the money, this is how it works when people buy ISK illegally.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online