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[June] Nullsec Asteroid Cluster and Excavator Drone changes

First post First post
Author
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#601 - 2017-06-07 13:00:55 UTC
Soko99 wrote:
I think the most disturbing part about this change.. is that it's 30 pages in. and not a single DEV response.



That's because threads like this are basically pressure release valves lol. CCP has identified something that they pretty much have to do, there is no way around it and they know people aren't going to like it. So they make this thread, let people blow off steam and go through with it anyway.

The fact that most posters don't realize that they aren't really giving feedback but actually blowing off steam doesn't matter. 99% of people complaining are going to keep playing and paying despite threats otherwise and CCP knows that. DEVs telling us anything is more a courtesy than anything, it's just the way it is.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#602 - 2017-06-07 13:09:06 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Soko99 wrote:
I think the most disturbing part about this change.. is that it's 30 pages in. and not a single DEV response.



That's because threads like this are basically pressure release valves lol. CCP has identified something that they pretty much have to do, there is no way around it and they know people aren't going to like it. So they make this thread, let people blow off steam and go through with it anyway.

The fact that most posters don't realize that they aren't really giving feedback but actually blowing off steam doesn't matter. 99% of people complaining are going to keep playing and paying despite threats otherwise and CCP knows that. DEVs telling us anything is more a courtesy than anything, it's just the way it is.


Even if they did collect feedback, the amount of people being wrong about it is hilarious.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#603 - 2017-06-07 13:13:15 UTC
Marcus Tedric wrote:
Texas Queens wrote:
...............

except the exact opposite is true, we have around ~90~ systems that we can mine in so a 5/4 hour re-spawn doesn't affect us.


And if ~90 systems weren't enough - then we'd do something about it!

And hey - anyone looked in the Belts recently.............Roll


I swoop in them to kill rats once in a while. I think there is some ore there too but I can't confirm with all the dust on grid.
Blaze Vardenheim
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#604 - 2017-06-07 17:52:47 UTC
instead of set time respawns, please make them vary; for instance, the colossal would respawn between 4 and 6 hours later and would respawn regardless if it was completely mined out or not.

Also, please remove the caustic cloud for mercoxit mining because rorquals are the new defacto mining ships in nullsec so mercoxit has become so space trash that few will actually mine it.
Augustus Primus
Bueno Excellente.
Fraternity.
#605 - 2017-06-07 21:50:59 UTC
Looks like CCP got it just about right. It's a good compromise when nobody is satisfied.

The industrialists are whining about a cut in production. The combat jockeys are complaining the CCP still makes it too hard for them to take out industrial ships and sites. Even the explorers and mission runners are using it as an opportunity to throw their 2 cents in. They all whine about lack of content.

I am an indy -- choosing to create and build. The rorqual has provided a major increase in productivity that has energized economies of the null-sec regions.

Offsetting this, it is also a vulnerable ship that is a massive target and has no fighting capability other than a handful of drones. It is locked into a fixed location for a set period of time while in its high-production cycle. It is also locked into being tied to an asteroid and exposed out in space when using its main defensive feature. On top of that, once it does finish a production cycle and can move, the term "snail's pace" is an optimistic description of its speed and progress.

The ship is a challenge to build -- requiring lots of PvE industrialist content to raise the large amounts of ISK and create the many materials and finished systems that go into it. It generates a market for lots of PvE exploration and mission running and ratting to provide certain types of loot and salvage needed to manufacture the systems.

It is also a challenge to destroy. No self-aggrandizing ship jockey trying to impress himself with his killboard numbers is going to be able to swoop in with a cruiser and take it out. It will take a serious group of experienced combatants that can operate together as a fleet to be able to take it down.

As for asteroid cluster regeneration. Slowing regeneration down is a reasonable way to keep opportunities balanced a little between high-sec and null-sec. Null-sec still has the advantage -- but they have to go through long supply lines to get things to and from major markets -- providing "content" for the PvP ambushes and counter strikes. It even fits role-play. It would take time for new fields of asteroids to drift into an area.

And when you have a ship that can eat its way through an entire asteroid field in a few hours (and support lesser ships with boost bursts) the miners are still doing quite well. Even a T1 mining barge operating on its own can generate 25 mill to 50 mill in an hour or two of work in the high value ores and ice of the null-sec belts.
Tessa Sage
Long Pig Luncheon Meat
#606 - 2017-06-07 22:03:53 UTC
Augustus Primus wrote:
The industrialists are whining about a cut in production. The combat jockeys are complaining the CCP still makes it too hard for them to take out industrial ships and sites. Even the explorers and mission runners are using it as an opportunity to throw their 2 cents in. They all whine about lack of content. ... As for asteroid cluster ... Even a T1 mining barge operating on its own can generate 25 mill to 50 mill in an hour or two of work in the high value ores and ice of the null-sec belts.


The cut in yield is mid-cycle when you've already injected for the 4th Rorqual toon and have a correlative 24BB on grid. More mining lasers are switching off indefinitely and people are chucking assets away to recoup ISK. Essentially, the market is on the verge of hyper-inflation.
Augustus Primus
Bueno Excellente.
Fraternity.
#607 - 2017-06-07 22:38:14 UTC
Tessa Sage wrote:
Augustus Primus wrote:
The industrialists are whining about a cut in production. The combat jockeys are complaining the CCP still makes it too hard for them to take out industrial ships and sites. Even the explorers and mission runners are using it as an opportunity to throw their 2 cents in. They all whine about lack of content. ... As for asteroid cluster ... Even a T1 mining barge operating on its own can generate 25 mill to 50 mill in an hour or two of work in the high value ores and ice of the null-sec belts.


The cut in yield is mid-cycle when you've already injected for the 4th Rorqual toon and have a correlative 24BB on grid. More mining lasers are switching off indefinitely and people are chucking assets away to recoup ISK. Essentially, the market is on the verge of hyper-inflation.



Again, you get back to RL issues. The supply was beginning to outstrip demand. People were overbuilding Rorqs and glutting the ore markets.

Also, the Rorq's were devaluing production for the high-sec players who cannot use them. The high-sec miners and manufacturers already face higher taxes and limitations that offset the benefits in high-sec. (Like the lack of "safe" mining areas that can be fully protected.) Just as there are reasons that players operate in low-sec, there are reasons certain players prefer high-sec. (Being able to be a small, independent industrialist without all of the complications of being a small fish in a corp - alliance - coalition is one of them.)

So CCP has let the pendulum swing back the other way a bit. In a way the decrease in supply of asteroids in null-sec -- particularly the rare-ore clusters -- will probably create more demand for the lesser ores in the regular belts. Again, requiring the mining lasers to be turned back on.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#608 - 2017-06-07 23:38:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Augustus Primus wrote:
Tessa Sage wrote:
Augustus Primus wrote:
The industrialists are whining about a cut in production. The combat jockeys are complaining the CCP still makes it too hard for them to take out industrial ships and sites. Even the explorers and mission runners are using it as an opportunity to throw their 2 cents in. They all whine about lack of content. ... As for asteroid cluster ... Even a T1 mining barge operating on its own can generate 25 mill to 50 mill in an hour or two of work in the high value ores and ice of the null-sec belts.


The cut in yield is mid-cycle when you've already injected for the 4th Rorqual toon and have a correlative 24BB on grid. More mining lasers are switching off indefinitely and people are chucking assets away to recoup ISK. Essentially, the market is on the verge of hyper-inflation.



Again, you get back to RL issues. The supply was beginning to outstrip demand. People were overbuilding Rorqs and glutting the ore markets.

Also, the Rorq's were devaluing production for the high-sec players who cannot use them. The high-sec miners and manufacturers already face higher taxes and limitations that offset the benefits in high-sec. (Like the lack of "safe" mining areas that can be fully protected.) Just as there are reasons that players operate in low-sec, there are reasons certain players prefer high-sec. (Being able to be a small, independent industrialist without all of the complications of being a small fish in a corp - alliance - coalition is one of them.)

So CCP has let the pendulum swing back the other way a bit. In a way the decrease in supply of asteroids in null-sec -- particularly the rare-ore clusters -- will probably create more demand for the lesser ores in the regular belts. Again, requiring the mining lasers to be turned back on.
Not sure I understand how reducing availability of high end ores will create a demand for low end ores.
High end, ABC ores, are required for building just about everything in Eve, reducing the amount of these ores is not going to increase demand for low end ores. In fact the exact opposite will happen.

Decreased availability at market of ABC's = less demand for low end ores.
ABC ore prices go up - Low end ore prices go down.

What the wait times for respawning anoms will achieve is less ore for some TZ's while the dominant TZ in any group reap the higher rewards. Very unbalanced for those who don't have 40 or 50 Rorquals and less than 12 hours a day to spend on Eve.

Just to clarify - Once Rorqual mining gets nerfed enough that Exhumers are a better option (risk vs reward, we are getting close), those guys running 40 or 50 Rorquals will simply switch to one Rorqual and 40 or 50 Exhumers. Nothing really changes, the little guy with one Rorq is still highly disadvantaged at market..

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Kassimila
The Northerners
Northern Coalition.
#609 - 2017-06-08 05:34:45 UTC
Meanwhile Sanctums and high sec incursions continue to spawn new sites instantly! I'm sorry but risking an 8-12 billion isk ship to make maybe 200 mil an hour is a really poor ROI. Considering a ratting carrier can pull down 200mil instant isk for a 2bil ship. The rorq doesn't need nerfs, it needs buffs like 20km laser range on drones that don't orbit the rock. Adjust yield to compensate.

That being said, the solution to this issue is not 'lets nerf the rorq more'. The solution is to increase DEMAND, because you added in tons of citadels and rigs that reduce manufacturing cost.

Speaking of citadels. The ore amount to build them is a JOKE. Increase it. BAM demand! Increase all blueprints while you're at it.
ApolloF117 HUN
Puritans
We want your ISK
#610 - 2017-06-08 06:16:11 UTC
Kassimila wrote:
Meanwhile Sanctums and high sec incursions continue to spawn new sites instantly! I'm sorry but risking an 8-12 billion isk ship to make maybe 200 mil an hour is a really poor ROI. Considering a ratting carrier can pull down 200mil instant isk for a 2bil ship. The rorq doesn't need nerfs, it needs buffs like 20km laser range on drones that don't orbit the rock. Adjust yield to compensate.

That being said, the solution to this issue is not 'lets nerf the rorq more'. The solution is to increase DEMAND, because you added in tons of citadels and rigs that reduce manufacturing cost.

Speaking of citadels. The ore amount to build them is a JOKE. Increase it. BAM demand! Increase all blueprints while you're at it.

Like tell me when a carrier can make instant 200m when a standard ratting fitt what i use make max 70-80m, dont confuse the standard carrier with a supercarrier
Kassimila
The Northerners
Northern Coalition.
#611 - 2017-06-08 07:17:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Kassimila
ApolloF117 HUN wrote:
Kassimila wrote:
Meanwhile Sanctums and high sec incursions continue to spawn new sites instantly! I'm sorry but risking an 8-12 billion isk ship to make maybe 200 mil an hour is a really poor ROI. Considering a ratting carrier can pull down 200mil instant isk for a 2bil ship. The rorq doesn't need nerfs, it needs buffs like 20km laser range on drones that don't orbit the rock. Adjust yield to compensate.

That being said, the solution to this issue is not 'lets nerf the rorq more'. The solution is to increase DEMAND, because you added in tons of citadels and rigs that reduce manufacturing cost.

Speaking of citadels. The ore amount to build them is a JOKE. Increase it. BAM demand! Increase all blueprints while you're at it.

Like tell me when a carrier can make instant 200m when a standard ratting fitt what i use make max 70-80m, dont confuse the standard carrier with a supercarrier


Each tick is 20 minutes. 80 x 3 = 240 mil an hour.
Rorq mining 1 hour = 200-250 mil based on ore type mined, distance, etc.

Oh I see where you got confused. By "instant" I mean it appears in your wallet. You don't have to take things to somewhere to sell them. Speaking of if you actually wanted to fix things like afk ishtar, nullsec ratting. Make rats drop tags that you sell to NPCs in highsec. Oh how the tears would flow. Oh yeah and make the tags enormous, you can compress them in a super carrier though np np.
ApolloF117 HUN
Puritans
We want your ISK
#612 - 2017-06-08 10:22:36 UTC
Kassimila wrote:
ApolloF117 HUN wrote:
Kassimila wrote:
Meanwhile Sanctums and high sec incursions continue to spawn new sites instantly! I'm sorry but risking an 8-12 billion isk ship to make maybe 200 mil an hour is a really poor ROI. Considering a ratting carrier can pull down 200mil instant isk for a 2bil ship. The rorq doesn't need nerfs, it needs buffs like 20km laser range on drones that don't orbit the rock. Adjust yield to compensate.

That being said, the solution to this issue is not 'lets nerf the rorq more'. The solution is to increase DEMAND, because you added in tons of citadels and rigs that reduce manufacturing cost.

Speaking of citadels. The ore amount to build them is a JOKE. Increase it. BAM demand! Increase all blueprints while you're at it.

Like tell me when a carrier can make instant 200m when a standard ratting fitt what i use make max 70-80m, dont confuse the standard carrier with a supercarrier


Each tick is 20 minutes. 80 x 3 = 240 mil an hour.
Rorq mining 1 hour = 200-250 mil based on ore type mined, distance, etc.

Oh I see where you got confused. By "instant" I mean it appears in your wallet. You don't have to take things to somewhere to sell them. Speaking of if you actually wanted to fix things like afk ishtar, nullsec ratting. Make rats drop tags that you sell to NPCs in highsec. Oh how the tears would flow. Oh yeah and make the tags enormous, you can compress them in a super carrier though np np.

If you want to fix the afk ishtar magic then do the same what ccp did with the fighters ,make thier sig radius bigger and make the npcs aggro them more often (cos fighters needed thatWhat?)
Amarisen Gream
Pleasant Peninsula Productions
Digital Vendetta
#613 - 2017-06-08 14:22:22 UTC
As the rorqual is getting hit with the bat again, could we look at removing the limitation of not going to HS with it. My morning brain fart.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#614 - 2017-06-08 14:35:56 UTC
ApolloF117 HUN wrote:

If you want to fix the afk ishtar magic then do the same what ccp did with the fighters ,make thier sig radius bigger and make the npcs aggro them more often (cos fighters needed thatWhat?)


You could just remove the auto-aggro and nobody would use afktars...
Allbur Chellak
The Terrifying League Of Dog Fort
Goonswarm Federation
#615 - 2017-06-08 22:27:59 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Soko99 wrote:
I think the most disturbing part about this change.. is that it's 30 pages in. and not a single DEV response.



That's because threads like this are basically pressure release valves lol. CCP has identified something that they pretty much have to do, there is no way around it and they know people aren't going to like it. So they make this thread, let people blow off steam and go through with it anyway.

The fact that most posters don't realize that they aren't really giving feedback but actually blowing off steam doesn't matter. 99% of people complaining are going to keep playing and paying despite threats otherwise and CCP knows that. DEVs telling us anything is more a courtesy than anything, it's just the way it is.



Very true.

CCP really does not care about people that injected and trained multiple characters to fly Rorquals. They are not interested in what miners want. They are not looking for feedback on this thread. They never asked for it and really they do not want it.

They know what the different groups would feel like even before they made the change.

They are going to make this change and it would amaze me if after 30 pages of comments that anything in the final update will be even slightly different than the OP.

A post like the OP is just to say what they ARE going to do, because they have to say it sometime so why not now.

Doing it on a forum is so that people have the illusion that talking about it may make them change their minds...which it will not.

It is up for all of us to change our game play based on CCP and if we do not like changes to unsub accounts or play a different game.



SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
#616 - 2017-06-08 22:31:39 UTC
Amarisen Gream wrote:
As the rorqual is getting hit with the bat again, could we look at removing the limitation of not going to HS with it. My morning brain fart.


Seriously?

There's no chance of that happening. I can't imagine why anyone would think it would merit asking, even in a pre-coffee state of mind.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Kassimila
The Northerners
Northern Coalition.
#617 - 2017-06-09 00:18:40 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Amarisen Gream wrote:
As the rorqual is getting hit with the bat again, could we look at removing the limitation of not going to HS with it. My morning brain fart.


Seriously?

There's no chance of that happening. I can't imagine why anyone would think it would merit asking, even in a pre-coffee state of mind.


Honestly...why not? Will be hilarious to watch the stupid thrasher spam go pick off all their 900 mil drones.
Vasil Comino
Van Diemen's Demise
Northern Coalition.
#618 - 2017-06-09 04:52:19 UTC
Hi Dev Team,

I'll start by saying I do no mine anymore since the waves of nerfs that have been put in place. I think it is worth mentioning in eve the game is built on risk vs reward. You do 'the maze' you spend 1-2 billion isk on a tengu. You want to win a solo pvp fight. You buy faction mods to help you out. You want better mining, ratting you go to low sec or null. Everything in Eve is designed to be that way.

Now with keeping that in mind. I can buy a 2 billion isk carrier, that can warp off grid at any time, that requires similar skills and earn 100 mill an hour ratting in a null sec system (even if I have to be a little active)

My Rorqual with drones cost closer to 8 billion isk and is stuck in a belt 5 minutes at a time earning what will probably be similar amounts of isk (probably less with the massive asteroids and the slow travel time)

I don't understand how this can be called balanced.

As I said it doesn't affect me, I've moved on from mining, more fun killing goons, but I think you are beginning to run the risk of having the Rorqual be what it used to be. A nothing ship.
Tessa Sage
Long Pig Luncheon Meat
#619 - 2017-06-09 06:06:46 UTC
mrammo wrote:
If you want to fix the mineral market you should just increase mineral requirements of blueprints by 15% accross the board.


This is precisely the right idea. Increasing the input costs through sheer mat quantity will in turn drive market prices and increase the likelihood of killmail seeking said more expensive targets upon purchase and use.

However, Rorqual skill books need to list for less and Excavator drones need to have a T2 version that requires fewer but more specific salvage. My thoughts. Blink
JC Mieyli
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#620 - 2017-06-09 08:20:37 UTC
Tessa Sage wrote:
mrammo wrote:
If you want to fix the mineral market you should just increase mineral requirements of blueprints by 15% accross the board.


This is precisely the right idea.]

sure but only if every asset with a blueprint is automatically reprocessed first
with a 50% mineral yield like in an npc station
then you can raise bp mineral cost 15%