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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Let's talk about Suitonia's suggestions to improve FW

Author
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#61 - 2017-02-22 22:34:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Liafcipe9000
How come I never thought of this? Shocked

out with the farmers, in with the loyalists. anything that convinces the wstab farmers to go away is good in my book. and the idea for LP tiers by one's rank is a good one also. it would definitely give a whole lot more depth to FW, requiring loyalty for long times to get good pay.

the downside to this is when you want to bring people in from outside FW because newcomers will get very low LP. if corps get tiers that can make it easier to recruit people, but they still won't get as much as the high-ranking players do.

still, definitely go for that. we should post about this in F&I and try to get CCP's attention to this topic.
Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
#62 - 2017-02-23 00:22:41 UTC
Andre Vauban wrote:
Boozbaz wrote:
I like the accelerated o-plexing idea better. Reason being, I've had situations where I've chased a stabbed d-plexer back and forth for a long time between two plexes, and the automatic timer rollback would not work well in that situation.


Yes it would. The farmer makes zero progress and you undo any progress he has made as long as you actively chase him around.

In the grand scheme of things, this farmer problem is relatively minor and any sort of accelerated rollback will have massive consequences when both sides are actually pvping. The attackers/defenders progress will be entirely wiped out for losing the first round of the battle for the plex. This will completely change the "king of the hill" type battles we have now and instead encourage one side to form a massive blob that warps from plex to plex "winning" for about 10 seconds while negating all the time the other side has put in. Will it work, sure but it will completely change plex warfare to big blobs and it will essentially become impossible to close any plexes.


Ah I stand corrected, you make a good point.
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2017-02-23 01:11:44 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:

Asking Pvpers to plex up 60 back end systems uncontested is unrealistic with current numbers. ..


The numbers of pvpers would greatly increase if ccp made the 2 changes.

If by joining militia you
1) had an intel tool that could tell you real time were plexes were being captured right by you instead of having to wander around looking

2)knew that the plexers were ready to fight because if they didn't stay and fight for the plex the timer would roll back and they would lose progress

then

Many many more pvpers would join fw and there would be no "back end" systems. The whole war zone would be full of pvpers fighting over plexes.



#1 fine, I don't think it is quite as important as you do because if you care about defending said system you should already have at least one person keeping an eye on it. However, I don't think this will cause any problems.

#2 I still think any sort of accelerated rollbacks will cause a massive imbalance towards whichever side can form a flash blob. The winner of whomever wins the plex shouldn't get a time bonus. They should just get a bonus that says "If the other side doesn't bother to come back, I don't have to waste my time here undoing their progress.". This will result in pushing people to cram more people into plexes instead of spreading out. This is bad.

.

Master Sergeant MacRobert
Space-Brewery-Association
Local Is Primary
#64 - 2017-02-23 13:55:29 UTC
Andre Vauban wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:

Asking Pvpers to plex up 60 back end systems uncontested is unrealistic with current numbers. ..


The numbers of pvpers would greatly increase if ccp made the 2 changes.

If by joining militia you
1) had an intel tool that could tell you real time were plexes were being captured right by you instead of having to wander around looking

2)knew that the plexers were ready to fight because if they didn't stay and fight for the plex the timer would roll back and they would lose progress

then

Many many more pvpers would join fw and there would be no "back end" systems. The whole war zone would be full of pvpers fighting over plexes.



#1 fine, I don't think it is quite as important as you do because if you care about defending said system you should already have at least one person keeping an eye on it. However, I don't think this will cause any problems.

#2 I still think any sort of accelerated rollbacks will cause a massive imbalance towards whichever side can form a flash blob. The winner of whomever wins the plex shouldn't get a time bonus. They should just get a bonus that says "If the other side doesn't bother to come back, I don't have to waste my time here undoing their progress.". This will result in pushing people to cram more people into plexes instead of spreading out. This is bad.


Agreed.

Passive rollback will do that job.

However, the list posted by Thanatos, supported by many of us, has many items that many of us support.

Any FW fix that is done should be a number of elements, not just some cobbled on quick change to one mechanism.

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"

Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#65 - 2017-02-23 14:43:24 UTC
How about every complex have a warp disruption bubble that covers the entire range where the timer moves plus 10-20km?

Would that be a simple method of reducing plex farming if that's the issue? Would seem to force more fights... you could still run but it would be harder.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#66 - 2017-02-23 15:10:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
Andre Vauban wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:

Asking Pvpers to plex up 60 back end systems uncontested is unrealistic with current numbers. ..


The numbers of pvpers would greatly increase if ccp made the 2 changes.

If by joining militia you
1) had an intel tool that could tell you real time were plexes were being captured right by you instead of having to wander around looking

2)knew that the plexers were ready to fight because if they didn't stay and fight for the plex the timer would roll back and they would lose progress

then

Many many more pvpers would join fw and there would be no "back end" systems. The whole war zone would be full of pvpers fighting over plexes.



#1 fine, I don't think it is quite as important as you do because if you care about defending said system you should already have at least one person keeping an eye on it. However, I don't think this will cause any problems.

#2 I still think any sort of accelerated rollbacks will cause a massive imbalance towards whichever side can form a flash blob. The winner of whomever wins the plex shouldn't get a time bonus. They should just get a bonus that says "If the other side doesn't bother to come back, I don't have to waste my time here undoing their progress.". This will result in pushing people to cram more people into plexes instead of spreading out. This is bad.


Agreed.

Passive rollback will do that job.

However, the list posted by Thanatos, supported by many of us, has many items that many of us support.

Any FW fix that is done should be a number of elements, not just some cobbled on quick change to one mechanism.


I think the three of us can agree on the essentials then.

I would be fine with a slower timer rollback. Again as MSM said before the details of these systems are implemented is really something for the devs. And it will likely need to be tweaked. Should it rollback if there is no enemy militia on grid and you warp out? Should the enemy militia just have to be on grid of the accelleration gate? Should they rollback anytime you leave? On the intel tools side: Should militias be informed if a neutal is in plex? Should they be told the type of plex being captured? Should they know how many enemy ships are there? Should they be informed how many friendly ships are in there. etc etc. All of this can be sorted by ccp but we at least we need to know when our sov plexes are being attacked and we need some disincentive from running from every fight.

I would like to just say something toward the importance of having better intel tools. Andre says: "I don't think it is quite as important as you do because if you care about defending said system you should already have at least one person keeping an eye on it."

With an intel tool that gives you real time information about plexes being captured you can finally broaden your view beyond just a system or a handful of systems and actually start fighting for sov throughout the front. Instead of having a blob occasionally fight over a single system 3 or 4xs a year we would actually have fighting spread out throughout the warzone. Those who want to just sit in a blob camping the huola Kourm gate can continue to do that. But in the meantime there will be allot of pvp happening throughout the warzone instead of the stagnation we currently see. (and by stagnation I don't mean that there is no pvp - but rather I mean there is no real concern for gaining sov. in the vast majority of systems the vast majority of pvp is just random meaningless pvp)

Just to understand how these changes would effect things consider that if these changes happen the first thing I would do is form or join a corp that is interested in gaining sov for a faction. And I mean all across the warzone not just a single system. Then the idea would be to have about dozen players who could each cover a constellation or cluster. By having this combined with a real time intel it would ensure that people are actually fighting for sov. There would be communication between the pilots in the different constellations so if one needed help pilots from a different constellation that wasn't being pressed could go over and help. This is the sort of real time strategic gameplay using real people combined with great small gang pvp that would make faction war sov become a huge draw. Finally the side that was winning the fw sov game would be doing it because they had better pvpers and better strategy. Rather than just more alts rabbit plexing.

Thanatos raised several good points too. They are all fine as far as they go, but they are not going to really change faction war sov from the stagnant game that very few care about.

Scialt wrote:
How about every complex have a warp disruption bubble that covers the entire range where the timer moves plus 10-20km?

Would that be a simple method of reducing plex farming if that's the issue? Would seem to force more fights... you could still run but it would be harder.


That has been considered before. The thing is fw pilots would not need to fit points to their ships and my problem would be it would just emphasize a kiting doctrine that is already very prevalent in eve espedcially null sec. I don't think it would stop rabbits either they could just fit a mwd and by the time the enemy lands on grid they would be out of point range and warping off.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Julius Foederatus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2017-02-23 18:22:24 UTC
Most of suitonia's comments read like someone who doesn't really play in FW but has read the rules, and either has an alt in for casual pvp, or knows someone who has an alt in for casual pvp. He talks about pirates hotdropping people if they form BS in large plexes (lul) and recon traps being the reason that we don't see T3D/cruiser brawls in mediums. Anyone who has a reasonable amount of familiarity with the system knows that these are wrong (one of them hilariously so). Recon traps matter for solo/micro gang pvp. No organized FW gang cares about recon traps. The reason you don't see T3ds vs. cruisers is cost pure and simple. High level plex pvp usually involves attrition doctrines because of the frequency of pvp and losses, so constant t3d losses hurt pretty hard.

The biggest problem with FW right now, imo, is citadels. Station lockouts used to be the primary motivator of FW occupancy warfare. Lose the sov, lose your stations. Fatigue set in at some point and occupancy warfare slacked off, but that had more to do with boredom and the sheer effort required to take an FW system. When both sides are motivated, there's nothing else in this game that quite compares to it. The ship losses for Burn Huola back in the day were staggering. Unfortunately, citadels have really put a hit on this type of gameplay for two reasons.

On the one hand, they make defense much harder. The advantages to defending an owned system are that it's much easier to ship in new equipment via JF, and reship times are much quicker, so you can get inside a new plex and set up in your optimal and control the warp in. Citadels erase this advantage for the defenders, sometimes making reship times quicker for the attacker, because of NPC station locations in the target system. They're also so easily defended due to TZ advantages and combat multipliers, that they're virtually impossible to get rid of once they're anchored and fit. And even if they do get blown up, asset safety means the attacking force loses almost nothing and can replace the citadel for less than the price of a fit capital ship.

On the other hand, they make FW sov almost meaningless, since they're so easy to defend and don't require occupancy to set up. Corps have been living in their home systems regardless of occupancy, with station lockouts barely affecting their day to day activities, due to the ease of living out of a citadel. So now you have a situation where occupancy warfare is both much more difficult, and also more irrelevant than before. Obviously, this isn't very conducive to healthy FW content.

There are two ways to fix this situation. Either, you have to change citadels themselves, by making them less functional or less defensible, or you need to change how citadels behave in FW space. Either way you're going to have to put restrictions on them, or give us a different reason to push FW occupancy.

I don't think CCP are going to want to change the base citadel design, so they need to function differently in FW space. Some possible restrictions are no docking rights at any structure for FW chars (or neuts for that matter) if you don't own the system occupancy. Barring that, you could great increase the required vuln times for citadels belonging to both neutrals and hostile FW entities. Maybe a hybrid of the two ideas, perhaps preventing hostile FW citadels completely, and greatly inceasing vuln times on neutral citadels in FW space.

There are other issues with FW, but this one is undoubtedly the most pressing.
Julius Foederatus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2017-02-23 18:41:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Julius Foederatus
As far as farmers go, crosi is right in that they don't really drive FW content, they're mainly an annoyance, although a significant one.

If you really wanted to do away with farmers, you have to do so through mechanics. There is no way to eliminate incentives to farm without also making FW pvp crushing to the people who actually do it full time, as opposed to people who put alts in.

Create a reward system that only rewards pvp and makes it very difficult to farm. You do this by tying LP rewards to success of your militia. Eliminate tier-based LP rewards. Make it so that offensive plexing only gives out LP if you successfully bash the IHUB and take the system. Defensive LP only pays out if you maintain a certain % for a certain amount of time on a particular system. Increase rewards for both offensive and defensive LP based on how contested a system already is to create hotzones and encourage more PVP. Keep missions in so that a defeated side still has the ability to earn money and try to fight back.

Oh, and keep FW 2v2, none of this 1v1v1v1 BS.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#69 - 2017-02-23 19:49:39 UTC
Julius I think you may be a bit too hard on Suitonia. And perhaps some views other than the very few who are die hard faction war guys are warranted. I mean many more people have become disenchanted with the faction war sov system and left it rather than stayed to continue fighting for sov in a broken system. So maybe the issues he sees might not be issues for you but would you agree that not many people care about faction war sov beyond just a few systems they base out of?

Julius Foederatus wrote:
The ship losses for Burn Huola back in the day were staggering. Unfortunately, citadels have really put a hit on this type of gameplay for two reasons..


Do you mean the burn huola from July of 2014? If so a couple of years with out citadels has passed since then. It seems a bit harsh to blame citadels for so much stagnation that happened well before they were even mentioned by ccp.

Also I am not sure lockouts or any real strategic goal was the main reason for burn huola. It may have been for those who announced it but they don't speak for everyone who participated and it wasn't done as though it was a strategic goal. I mean it is one jump from high sec and both sides can base out of high sec despite the navies. It was also an event announced before it took place in order that everyone could purposely base there and fight. It is not strategic to announce your attack before you do it but it does tend to draw people in because they can prepare and bring ships. For me, and likely other pilots, burn huola had allot more to do with content than it did to drive someone out of a station. Even with citadels such an event could happen again. It might happen over the destruction of a citadel.

I think you should give citadels a bit more time before you decide they are nothing but negative. As someone who likes to roam around enemy space I think the number of citadels in caldari gallente space are great. Lots of people left faction war partly due to lockouts. Sure now years later those that didn't mind them or thought they were good is all that is left. But that doesn't mean lockouts are only a big positive. They reduce the number of roams into enemy space and thus cause stagnation in large areas of space.

Bottom line is that faction war needs help and has for years. The whole blobbing one system to try to take an objective is fine but rarely happened and really is null sec lite. Its just blobbing with fewer numbers and cheaper ships.

Faction war needs something to make it not just null sec lite but a different experience.

Also I am not sure I understand your proposal on changing lp payouts would end farming or rabbit plexing.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Julius Foederatus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2017-02-23 20:14:45 UTC
Whichever one turned into a massive fight with all 4 militias and several neutral entities involved. I think roflpockets started it by posting publicly in this very forum calling the minnies out. Lockouts were indeed the reason for it, because why on earth would the minnies care about losing Huola if they could just dock in it afterwards anyways? I can assure you the docking rights are what gave the whole thing urgency and drew more people there to pvp.

To clarify, I don't think FW has stagnated because of citadels, but they are a huge issue right now. EU TZ, outside of Rus TZ, is effectively dead in Cal/Gal WZ. There is just no way for us to do anything. We can't do fleets to game timers on citadels because of the mechanics, and US TZ can't set up timers for us. There's no one to fight who doesn't totally outmatch us, and we've bled so many high-sp pilots to the local pirate corps because of lack of content, that even if the mechanics changed it would take us ages to get back to being competitive. At least before citadels you could have some sort of role for the off-prime TZ to play. Now it's next to impossible to get good content, that doesn't become some giant blobfest where half of EVE gets batphone to fight the other half over some piddly astrahus. One of the best things about FW occupancy pvp is the lack of bottlenecks, but citadels have created a huge one because of the ridiculous vuln timers.

FW has stagnated because people were bored with the mechanics. Once you've taken the WZ for bragging rights, what other reason is there to keep fighting, except to defend your home system if it comes under attack? We waited for years for the squids to get their act together, but now that they (kinda sorta) have, most of our veteran players are either AFK or moved on to greener pastures. Nothing about the FW mechanics made us keep fighting, it was the presence of enemies that we could fight (read: content). You can't fight farmers because, by definition, they're there to avoid pvp and make isk. Anyone who has tried chasing them around knows how soul-crushingly boring it is.

The tier system of rewards focuses on WZ control, but the WZ is mostly empty space (from an FW perspective) that gets swung by farmers. Hence why the only real reason you'd see tier shifts is to get the farmers on your side so that you could increase your LP rewards. But the LP rewards don't require pvp. Farmers specifically avoid pvp because they're trying to make as much isk as possible with as little risk as possible. By requiring someone to PVP for you to get rewards, it forces farmers to either put skin in the game, or stop farming. If you're some alt in a backwater system that no one cares about and may never get flipped, are you going to keep farming in the hope that you might one day see that LP? Or are you going to just quit because realistically no one will do anything about it? Right now, getting LP doesn't require conflict between the two sides. You don't get more LP for taking a system, in fact you actually lose out a bit because you push your farming grounds further away. What I'm proposing is a system that puts your LP rewards directly at odds with the enemy faction's LP rewards. By making it a zero-sum game for the best rewards, you encourage conflict.
Perkutor Jakuard
Los violentos de Kenny
Villore Accords
#71 - 2017-02-23 20:21:38 UTC
The key for a better fw in my opinion is fun and iskis.

In null sec sov, everybody understand what is a CTA , they are motivated because their systems are how they farm. And you don't have to plex a system 1 week to be able to switch the owner.

This doens't happens in fw, maybe this motivation could be inserted in factional, adding some kind of rating, combat complex, exploration, industry bonuses, POS production. in one word your rewards gets multiplied if land belongs to you as an alternate way to farm plexing.

So you'd have plexing, exploration, pve, etc.... but multiplied in some way and keeping that meeting point that the actual plex have for pvp.

I remember a few years ago, low sec had a lot of people farming and fighting, CCP balanced the rats and change the cloacking in the complexs ( I understand the reasons ) and low sec suddenly changed, people leave it, farmers and PVPers. The relation between pvpers and his farming is local, no farming no pvp, no pvp I'll move and farm in other place.

Honestly I don't think plex rabbits should be removed if the conquest system is not changed too, basically because is a lot boring for me to plex a system till is "conquerable" or deplexing it with almost no reward. When a system is near to be switched then people get motivated and the fun arise with a lot of organized and not organized combats.

I usually farm oplexing because I have combats there, if not I get a reward. When I get bored of plexing I switch to other activities, pve, exploration, those could be "multiplied too" to support my PVP.

Missions should be balanced is not funny to travel 19 jumps for a bit of repetitive PVE.

Citadels should be left outside of fw mechanics in my opinion, before they show up, it was quite common to setup a POS as base to conquer a "hot system". I think citadels create nice content as you can have an easy base for offensive/defensive PVP, and also add content when the other faction comes to destroy it.


Pirates add content, mercs add content, citadels add content.
More content is good.
Less content is oviously bad.

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#72 - 2017-02-23 21:40:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Im not sure its possible to create mechanics that will capture players attention indefinitely. Instead, you just need mechanics that allow as many types of effort and play styles as possible to influence the course of events and overall state of FW. I have acknowledged that farmers are one of the strongest influence, but they put time into plexing, the effort into finding quiet places and seem to have stronger will than pvpers to be in the systems they are farming. It takes very little effort on the part of a pvper to thwart a farmer.

I do think that FW mechanics are better than ever, though Thans post does have some QOL tweaks that would take some limitations and frustrations out of FW as well as possible reasons to fight other than station lock outs.

Lots of the mechanics proposed here, and just about everything cerain has ever proposed are IMO damaging to the natural forces in action on FW mechanics in low sec. No one likes farmers, and its easy to point fingers and blame ALL problems on something you dont like. Even if that is not at all the cause of all the problems you see. Its a common practice called demonising. Pretty sure you are on record as anti-station lock out, and pro flash upgrades for cash outs...

I am fundamentally anti-free intel, since that is against everything this game stands for. If intel is worth having, a player will make it. There is already far more than enough intel out there.

While the current mechanics may not be eternally compelling (very few games offer that), i do honestly see citadels as taking a lot of wind out of the sails of FW mechanics. As it stands, any meaningful objective, usually revolving around removing a citadel, devolves into a rinse repeat low sec power house brawl in tidi. Then its just a dice roll of bat phones.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
Villore Accords
#73 - 2017-02-24 00:13:58 UTC
There is something to be said for changing something that has become stale.

There are many small QOL changes that can be made to make FW space even better, but still within the scope of what it currently is.

However, if they want FW to really thrive they need to deal with the citadel problem or rework FW from the ground up.


Semi-random off the cuff thought. Only let FW corps/alliances anchor citadels in FW space, and use NPCs to enforce it. Said NPCs could even come through and sweep enemy citadels out of systems that get flipped.

It might be a bit extreme, but it is fun to think about :)
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#74 - 2017-02-24 17:04:18 UTC
Julius

I agree with just about everything you describe in your last post -even if we may disagree with the causes I think it is an important first step is to acknowledge what has in fact happened. Then we can look at and argue about causes

First let me say I do agree that even I had some motivation to have minmatar kicked out of Huola. (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=356851) Time flies doesn't it? So I will concede I was overly negative about that aspect of lockouts. But I do want to point out there are considerable downsides to lockouts. And I believe they are the cause of much of the problems you describe for faction war.

Let me start with what I think is the most important question to ask and you ask it:

Julius Foederatus wrote:
Once you've taken the WZ for bragging rights, what other reason is there to keep fighting, except to defend your home system if it comes under attack?


Here I think there is only one answer. And that answer must be because it is allot of fun to fight for occupancy. If it is not fun to fight for occupancy then FW will fail.
Since inferno CCP made fw sov about carrots and sticks. If you win occupancy you will get lots of isk! If you don't win occupancy you will get kicked out of stations! But the problem is anyone can join faction war on any side so you can just put alts in the winning side for the isk/carrots. And if fighting for sov is not fun you will quit if the sticks hurt too much. Become a pirate and pvp there. F---- station lockouts we get more targets anyway.
This basic problem will never change. CCP has adjusted sticks and carrots for years. But its not going to work. It hasn’t in the past and it never will. Every time someone says this change to pay outs or this consequences for winning or losing will work people need to consider what I said above.

I am convinced that the only way to fix FW sov warfare is to make it incredibly fun to fight for sov. Not soul crushing where you are warping around after rabbit plexers. Or worse yet having your own alts rabbit plex. Many people do that and it is not only the best way to get lp and isk – it is also the best way to get vp and sov for your faction. Its that latter part that hurts faction war so much. Many players are not going to spend their limited playing time doing that ****. That is why people are saying **** faction war. I don’t want to have to sit an alt in a plex so I can continue to dock. I just want to go out and get fights.

Can fighting for occupancy be fun? Hell yes it can. I have had so much fun fighting in and around plexes, IMO it is absolutely the best. Sure Huola was great but I also love the fights where I warp in and I see my militia fighting with the enemy or two and then I come and put things in our favor and maybe get some kills, but then more enemy or neutrals warp in and things start to go south and maybe I try to warp out or whatever. These sort of spur of the moment things that just happen in and around plexes are fantastic. For me personally these are more fun than the everyone anchor on the fc and wait in plex burn huola type fights. I am really convinced that if ccp focused the sov war to increase actual pvp in these plexes, faction war would take off again and likely would be a competitor with null sec for main high sp pvp characters. And I think it would provide more rewarding pvp gameplay than anything else in eve.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#75 - 2017-02-24 17:07:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Julius Foederatus wrote:
....There's no one to fight who doesn't totally outmatch us, and we've bled so many high-sp pilots to the local pirate corps because of lack of content, that even if the mechanics changed it would take us ages to get back to being competitive. …
….Nothing about the FW mechanics made us keep fighting, it was the presence of enemies that we could fight (read: content). You can't fight farmers because, by definition, they're there to avoid pvp and make isk. Anyone who has tried chasing them around knows how soul-crushingly boring it is.

The tier system of rewards focuses on WZ control, but the WZ is mostly empty space (from an FW perspective) that gets swung by farmers. ..


Ok let me give you my view on this. Station lockouts lead to people clustering in a few systems or front. Why? Because if you have a small corp that might have 5 guys online at a time you would go to sleep and find your system highly contested when you woke up. So you would have to put alts in to deplex all that damage. And this became an unbearable pain. So eventually all the corps just congregated to a few systems so that they could have round the clock defense and spread out the task of d-plexing.

The problem is when you put everyone in one or just a few hot spots then the game becomes more binary. Do I have the forces to fight here or not? Its usually a simple yes or no when everyone is grouped into a small space. If you do great but then the other side will likely dock up. Even burn huola (which had a many more variables and groups than most fw sov pushes) lasted only about a week before that binary calculation became clear that the Amarr would not win. Sure people tried to keep morale by saying we will win etc and we would occasionally piddle around. But it became pretty clear fairly quickly that we didn’t have the numbers and soon the fleets stopped. That is because it was one system. And when you are talking about one system the math can’t really be manipulated very well.

Now before station lockouts there were patches of minmatar corps spread all over the map. Before inferno I had ships thoughout the zone and the corp I was in had about 4 or 5 mini bases of operation through out fw space. So if one constellation was too hot you could roam up the pipe and see what a different group had to offer. We might get 8 guys in bcs and go roam around up to hror (deep in minmatar space) and we actually got quite a few fights in a variety of areas and with a variety of players. Now with lockouts you fly into enemy space you can easily get those bcs trapped because you can’t dock. It forces players to stay local. That is why so many sections of caldari gallente space are dead right now. That is also why there is stagnation.
Citadels may help this issue. If corps can roam and have multiple bases throughout the warzone then there will be more opportunities to find good fights. Continuing to clump everyone into a small areas will continue this trend to stagnation.

So people who leave faction war can already do that. I have bases of ships thoughout low sec fw space. Its great. If I go roaming I am always just a few jumps from a reship. That was a considerable advantage to being a neutral pvper. That reason to become a neutral may be diminishing due to citadels. And generally things that bring pvpers back to faction war is good for fw.

Another draw to bring the pvpers back to faction war would be if they could see real time intel where plexes were being captured. Especially if they knew that the person capturing the plex knew he had to stay to fight or his time would rollback. It’s not a mystery that allot of neutrals are in faction war space for the pvp. And its not really the faction war missions that bring that pvp. The fw plexes are a big draw. Having this intel would make finding fights much more efficient. Not only could you warp to plexes but when you enter a plex you would know you are notifying the enemy where you are! That would mean pvpers would not feel they are wasting time capturing a plex when they want pvp. They would likely get the pvp they want while winning sov for their faction. And that would be a large draw for allot of pvpers. It would also be allot of fun. That would probably the best thing for eve since the introduction of cruisers.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#76 - 2017-02-24 20:19:09 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:

Lots of the mechanics proposed here, and just about everything cerain has ever proposed are IMO damaging to the natural forces in action on FW mechanics in low sec. No one likes farmers, and its easy to point fingers and blame ALL problems on something you dont like. Even if that is not at all the cause of all the problems you see. Its a common practice called demonising. Pretty sure you are on record as anti-station lock out, and pro flash upgrades for cash outs...


I am not blaming farmers. Rabbit Plexers are playing the game rationally as per the design. The design that makes winning a war by running away is the problem. The two proposals I make fix the root problem.

Yes I gave the reasons for being anti-station lockout. Lots of players agree with me its bad. No they may not still be in fw any longer but if you look at the number of players who left faction war I am sure they are happy to no longer have to park an alt in a system so they don't get locked out. I am also sure many of the pvpers who left are happy to have several bases throughout the warzone. And I am sure many are happy they can go through all of low sec and not have to go five jumps before they can dock. These are all reasons for pvpers to leave faction war. I do agree there are plus sides to station lockouts but IMO they do not outweigh the negatives.

Finally I thought the change from the cashout system was done hastily and poorly. I think inferno which was the major change to faction war was only about 5 months in (may 2012 to october 2012) and the change was made because of people saying this thing happened once and it may happen again. I predicted the October 2012 change would lead to stagnation. And lots of people agree we have stagnation.

Now you say faction war is the best it has ever been right now. So maybe you disagree that stagnation has set in. But I can tell you when we had cashouts there was a hell of allot more buzz going on everywhere in eve about faction war. There was all sorts of talk and argument about strategies and many more attempts to try to get militias organized to take sov and boost the tiers. Now - well lets just say its hard to stay awake and talk about faction war strategy to take sov or up your tier. I don't think any sane person would say its more exciting to be in faction war today than back in May - October of 2012. Say what you want but the sov war then looked to be positively exciting compared to the current stagnation.

Would the cash out system have played itself out? Maybe. Did it have major/critical flaws that could be exploited - possibly but there were also possible fixes for those that could have been tried. But faction war almost instantly hit a brick wall of apathy after the changes made in October. No one cared about the tiers at all anymore. Caldari basically folded. (they still hadn't recoved enough to really send anyone to burn huola in 2014 almost 2 years later.)

But whatever that change is done and there is no going back. I don't claim to be perfect when it comes to predictions, but that was an example of faction war reacting to changes exactly how I predicted it would.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Julius Foederatus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2017-02-24 22:18:48 UTC
The cashout system was awful. I'm glad it died, and long may it rest. I personally lead fleets where we had to bash around 20 systems in a single go, just to be able to cash out our LP at the time. And of course, the whole time you were doing such mindnumbingly awful gameplay, there were 100s of faceless alts sitting in Villore, asking if we were done yet, who I of course had never seen in fleets or out plexing any system of consequence. Seriously, it was an awful iteration and only someone who didn't have to do the heavy lifting of organizing cash outs could have any sort of fondness for it.

I get that you want FW to return to some casual PVP paradise where you can roam around and fight 8 guys in one area and move around if you get blobbed, but ask yourself this: if the old mechanics were so good before lock outs and LP for plexes, why the hell was FW almost completely dead?

EVE is really a crap game mechanically. It takes too long to get into the action, losing is too costly, there's a tremendous amount of anti-social behavior in the community, so where's the draw? The draw is in the challenge of the game, where combat has meaning and people will put up with that to accomplish something meaningful, that they couldn't do just by themselves. Thousands of EVE players flock to null sec to be a part of the game out there, despite the fact that the mechanics are nearly universally condemned as terrible. If your gameplay isn't meaningful and challenging, then you're just left with a game with **** mechanics, played by a bunch of sociopaths who take out their inability to talk to the opposite sex on poor newbies dipping their toes into low sec.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#78 - 2017-02-25 02:00:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Julius Foederatus wrote:
The cashout system was awful. I'm glad it died, and long may it rest. I personally lead fleets where we had to bash around 20 systems in a single go, just to be able to cash out our LP at the time.


Just to put some perspective on this. Cerain is a solo player who back then flew only incursus, kestrel and punisher, that has never been involved in organising a single hub bash let along a cash out. Its unfair to expect him to understand how things actually worked under the mechanics he enjoyed since he was a peripheral entity at best in the amarr matar warzone.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#79 - 2017-02-25 08:46:07 UTC
something you guys should know about CCP: they are only listening to player feedback if they are actually working on something related to that feedback or if that thing is a game breaking issue.

you can't break the game with FW because LP shops are actually a isk sink, so trying to convince CCP that plexing is broken is one thing, the much harder step is to convince them that it is important enough that they actually schedule time to work on FW again.

and believe me we tried for 5+ years to push for timer rollbacks (or similar mechanics, although rollbacks are basically the least complex and most direct fix).


So far, all plexing related changes were really just quick and dirty fixes and did not address the underlying issue, only mitigated it.
farmers speed tanked the rats -> ccp added the requirement to kill them
farmers killed the rat then sat there with an empty ship with an alt -> ccp let the rats respawn
farmers used stabs -> ccp increased the tank on the npcs so that damage mods were required to kill them (less slots for stabs - at least that was the goal lol)
farmers cloaked in plexes as soon something was on dscan -> ccp gave the beacon a 30k volume to disable cloaks.


And none of the changes addressed the underlying issue that running away or hiding is LP efficient (some were even counter productive, e.g the cloak was the most expensive part of a farming ship and trapping a farmer with you on grid while you deplexed was kinda funny). Stabs, cloaks, unfit ships are not required to run away, they are just convenience. Timer rollbacks however address the issue directly and make running away LP inefficient. Suddenly stabs, cloaks and unfit ships wouldn't make sense anymore unless all you really want is to protect your ship (which is completely fine since you don't contest a system by doing that).


so good luck with that - my war is over ;) but i am willing rejoin FW if ccp changes their mind and finally decides to update it.


fake edit: btw there are like a million different variations of the "timer rollback" idea, it can be anything from donating lp at the beacon to reset the timer to slowly backwards ticking timers as soon you leave the influence of the beacon.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Master Sergeant MacRobert
Space-Brewery-Association
Local Is Primary
#80 - 2017-02-25 19:22:49 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
something you guys should know about CCP: they are only listening to player feedback if they are actually working on something related to that feedback or if that thing is a game breaking issue.

you can't break the game with FW because LP shops are actually a isk sink, so trying to convince CCP that plexing is broken is one thing, the much harder step is to convince them that it is important enough that they actually schedule time to work on FW again.

and believe me we tried for 5+ years to push for timer rollbacks (or similar mechanics, although rollbacks are basically the least complex and most direct fix).


So far, all plexing related changes were really just quick and dirty fixes and did not address the underlying issue, only mitigated it.
farmers speed tanked the rats -> ccp added the requirement to kill them
farmers killed the rat then sat there with an empty ship with an alt -> ccp let the rats respawn
farmers used stabs -> ccp increased the tank on the npcs so that damage mods were required to kill them (less slots for stabs - at least that was the goal lol)
farmers cloaked in plexes as soon something was on dscan -> ccp gave the beacon a 30k volume to disable cloaks.


And none of the changes addressed the underlying issue that running away or hiding is LP efficient (some were even counter productive, e.g the cloak was the most expensive part of a farming ship and trapping a farmer with you on grid while you deplexed was kinda funny). Stabs, cloaks, unfit ships are not required to run away, they are just convenience. Timer rollbacks however address the issue directly and make running away LP inefficient. Suddenly stabs, cloaks and unfit ships wouldn't make sense anymore unless all you really want is to protect your ship (which is completely fine since you don't contest a system by doing that).


so good luck with that - my war is over ;) but i am willing rejoin FW if ccp changes their mind and finally decides to update it.


fake edit: btw there are like a million different variations of the "timer rollback" idea, it can be anything from donating lp at the beacon to reset the timer to slowly backwards ticking timers as soon you leave the influence of the beacon.


I will be back moments after they convince Bienator. Coz I know then it will be worthwhile.

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"