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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Let's talk about Suitonia's suggestions to improve FW

Author
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#41 - 2017-02-21 17:28:13 UTC
I dont think, and even during the initial inferno iteration, didnt think, that pendulum swings are a bad thing in and of themselves. Even if the rate of swings back then were insane.

Flip flop farmers can be annoying, but its easy to deter the bulk of them with a sustained effort. The more eve players realise that there is nothing but aggro in x system, the less farming attempts will be made.

Beyond that, they are only annoying if you care about whats happening in some stationless system you dont care about x number of jumps away or you have some desire to permanently maintain tier 3 but lack the effort to project control over system x where some farmers farm.

Now, i personally do want to maintain gal tier 3, and killed known friendly alts when they farmed cal mil LP systems i had interests in. However, just because caldari swinging back isnt MY ideal, doesnt mean its a bad thing. The fact that it happened at all is a reflection of the effort put into the warzone in both pvp and pve terms.

I think the current mechanics allow pvp and pve efforts to influence swings in meaningful ways. Perhaps farmers drive the tier system the hardest, but i think its good that there is a tipping point in LP values where it makes far more sense to Oplex for LP at 50% rate, than it does to Dplex at whatever rate is applicable.

At this arbitrary moment, it becomes more difficult for the dominant side to maintain the satus quo (stagnation), and IMO is better for both sides as the mechanics themselves have, IMO, a subtle way of balancing the sides, intentional or not. Appreciated or not.

So, as ive said for years, IMO, farmers are good for FW in macro terms. Removing farmers will not replace them with PVPers. The PVPers that will be there are already there. Those that say they quit FW because of farmers were not thinking it through very will.


My final point, to address the bulk of what you said. If the farmers swap sides to the losing side because viable income is better at tier 1 that it is on the winning side at tier 3/4. Why do so many PVPers see tier 1 as such a major disadvantage? Are farmers just more intelligent? Im pretty sure you can easily farm ISK to pay for any commonly used ship at tier 1 so i dont see a major problem. Sure, it usually takes longer to earn the ISK, but not as much as the amount of LP you get from a plex would suggest.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#42 - 2017-02-21 18:27:11 UTC
If you are simply running plexes for isk then you will generally go with the higher tier - if you are rational. The fact that the market fluctuates to help all the sides at certain times does not prevent this - at all. Get the most lp for what ever side has the higher tier regardless of what the market is currently for that side. That way you will have more lp (over 2xs as much) for your time when the market swings to that factions favor.

I agree with Master Seargent McRoberts that there can be tweaks to make switching sides more difficult. But because of alts its not going to be a purely economic one or based on standings.

In the end it has to come down to making people feel certain sense of pride in gaining sov for their faction. When you best gain sov for your faction by always running away then that is going to be tough to make people proud of gaining sov for their faction. Sure there are some in faction war that think it's fine. But the overwhelming majority of eve players understand fw sov to be a joke. And they have good reason for their view. CCP needs to fix this and until they do, very few players are going to feel pride in accomplishing things for their faction in the sov war.

Null sec sov is often criticized and I am not saying it is perfect. But at least you don't win sov by constantly running away! You receive intel about what is attacked so you have an opportunity to defend in pvp. This is a big reason why thousands of people find null sec sov rewarding and only tiny fraction of that number find anything worthwhile in fighting for faction war sov.

As long as people keep saying rabbit plexing is not a big deal (and therefore ccp puts off the fixes for rabbit plexing) this will continue to be the case. People won't take pride in making gains in fw sov and they will therefore not really have any sense of commitment to one side. Of course there are exceptions in every faction. There are those who are committed to their faction despite the current horrible mechanics. But honestly they are so few compared to the overall playerbase, that I would hope even they could recognize that what is motivating them, is not working very well for the vast majority of players. Sadly a few of them are so attached to their tiny niche play style that they don't see what is obvious to the rest of eve. Some of them are very vocal on these forums as well.

Station Lockouts: To the extent anyone from null sec is reading this and isn't sure of the mechanics in fw. When you are "locked out" of a station in faction war there is no real risk to your assets. Your station will not be bubble-camped because there are no bubbles. You can have an alt on the same account as your faction war character dock in that station and move your stuff. (you can even have that alt join the other faction war militia, but you don't need to.) You do not need to try to get an alt in a player run alliance that will likely ask for your api and then see you are contracting all your stuff to that alt etc.

To say your stuff is more at risk in a faction war - low sec station than it is in a sov null sec station is extremely uninformed. So yeah if you are scratching your head at some of the comments here you should be. The person claiming there is more risk in fw stations is clueless. Station lockouts in fw are an annoyance they are not in any way a real risk. And citadels have a much larger impact on Null Sec sov than they do on fw space.

The 15% value tax for losing your stuff in a citadel is IMO a bigger risk than losing one of your characters access to a station in faction war space. In both cases you are going to have to relocate your stuff but the citadel also has a 15% tax on top of that.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#43 - 2017-02-21 18:38:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
I hope you arnt talking about me as though i said station lock outs in FW are riskier than station lock outs in NULL?

I didnt ever talk about NPC stations or NULL outposts in any area of space.

All my points were how citadels mostly negate FW station lock outs, and how FW occupancy is far more vulnerable than NULL sov, in response to someone saying that citadels had the same issues everywhere.

Losing 15% of you **** fit Oplexing stockpile is not really a burden, therefore not a risk in comparison to the advantages that a fully operational station offers you in a system you were previously unable to dock or had to rely on a POS.

And i didnt say rabbit plexing is 'not a big deal'. I said its actually a beneficial artifact of the tier system. Some may only see the times when it keeps the winning side on top, but those people are ignoring the other times when the farmers swing the pendulum. This gives all sides a 'tide' to sail upon rather than a 'hill to climb' against a richer, more cohesive force.

Farmers punish the lazy, and lets not forget that to pvp at all, you must farm first.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#44 - 2017-02-21 19:06:14 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:


And i didnt say rabbit plexing is 'not a big deal'. I said its actually a beneficial artifact of the tier system.



This is really the bottom line on where we disagree. I gave my reasons for believing rabbit plexing is a huge problem for faction war. I won't go through it again now.

But yes you are definitely one of the people I was refering to as being an obstacle for getting people organized to help push ccp for the changes that will actually benefit faction war sov.

Crosi Wesdo wrote:


So, as ive said for years, IMO, farmers are good for FW in macro terms.


Yeah well the overwhelming majority of players think fw farmville is not good on any level, and is actually pretty broken. Hopefully CCP will recognize the potential in faction war and finally make the changes it needs.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Aves Asio
#45 - 2017-02-22 11:04:41 UTC
Farmers have too much power in the current system. I understand that we cant get rid of them but we should at least try to limit their influence
Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
#46 - 2017-02-22 11:08:44 UTC
Aves Asio wrote:
Farmers have too much power in the current system. I understand that we cant get rid of them but we should at least try to limit their influence


Someone posted a really good idea. Instead of having timer rollbacks, you get accelerated o-plexing until it hit's the default time.

So for example if you warp into a large and the stabbed punisher warps out. And you see the beacon is at 35 minutes. instead you would o-plex it down to the 20 minute mark (default starting spot for large plex) at an accelerated rate.

Helps both not only with giving us a way to deal with farmers, but also with trolls who leave a large/medium plex at 39 minutes.
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Space-Brewery-Association
Local Is Primary
#47 - 2017-02-22 13:05:51 UTC
Boozbaz wrote:
Aves Asio wrote:
Farmers have too much power in the current system. I understand that we cant get rid of them but we should at least try to limit their influence


Someone posted a really good idea. Instead of having timer rollbacks, you get accelerated o-plexing until it hit's the default time.

So for example if you warp into a large and the stabbed punisher warps out. And you see the beacon is at 35 minutes. instead you would o-plex it down to the 20 minute mark (default starting spot for large plex) at an accelerated rate.

Helps both not only with giving us a way to deal with farmers, but also with trolls who leave a large/medium plex at 39 minutes.


I have always supported the idea that the "timer rollback" suggestion utilises and accelerated "reseting" of the timer. I don't think the idea has been thrashed out enough to anticipate the pitfalls though.

Timer rollbacks appear to have stumbled at the first hurdle and so the details of implementation (which lets face it is Dev work) have not really been discussed considered.

If a single capsuleer chases out another from a plex. It should be quicker to reset their work but the same speed to capture the plex from "neutral".

This change would allow a single pilot to stop a single pilot capturing a system without warping, warping, warping, warping.. until their head explodes.

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"

Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
#48 - 2017-02-22 13:11:08 UTC
Nice to see we can agree on this.

You know what else needs more work? The LP store. Holy **** that needs work. When you can buy deadspace items for cheaper than the FW items in the LP store, there's a real problem going on.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
Villore Accords
#49 - 2017-02-22 14:22:16 UTC
Boozbaz wrote:
Nice to see we can agree on this.

You know what else needs more work? The LP store. Holy **** that needs work. When you can buy deadspace items for cheaper than the FW items in the LP store, there's a real problem going on.


The LP store would require an entire rewrite.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#50 - 2017-02-22 19:50:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Cearain wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:


And i didnt say rabbit plexing is 'not a big deal'. I said its actually a beneficial artifact of the tier system.



This is really the bottom line on where we disagree. I gave my reasons for believing rabbit plexing is a huge problem for faction war. I won't go through it again now.

But yes you are definitely one of the people I was refering to as being an obstacle for getting people organized to help push ccp for the changes that will actually benefit faction war sov.

Crosi Wesdo wrote:


So, as ive said for years, IMO, farmers are good for FW in macro terms.


Yeah well the overwhelming majority of players think fw farmville is not good on any level, and is actually pretty broken. Hopefully CCP will recognize the potential in faction war and finally make the changes it needs.


I dont really recognise the problems you see, nor do i have a vision of perfect intel and tier pushes for mass cashouts like you have argued before.

People get frustrated at farmers because they run away. I think thats better than the farmers not existing and that plex being empty. Farmers have never had any influence over a single system that i have ever had any interest in.

The tide of the tier levels IS NOT content. Its a content driver. An objective of a purely PVP driven FW would be boring since there would be only way to progress and that would be dominated to whoever recruited the most neckbeards. The tier system is a nice way for us all to make isk. For every farmer that you think has no right to make isk in this computer game, there is another player who also neds isk.

All the isk generated usually finds its way into some form of PVP or other.

The CONTENT in FW is the combat, and regardless of what farmers are doing, combat is not hard to find or engineer on any scale in FW space.

Im not trying to be an obstacle to improving FW. All ive ever said is FW is in a very good place mechanically speaking. And for your ideas in particular, for the most part, i see as damaging or regressive.
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2017-02-22 19:54:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Andre Vauban
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:

I have always supported the idea that the "timer rollback" suggestion utilises and accelerated "reseting" of the timer. I don't think the idea has been thrashed out enough to anticipate the pitfalls though.

Timer rollbacks appear to have stumbled at the first hurdle and so the details of implementation (which lets face it is Dev work) have not really been discussed considered.

If a single capsuleer chases out another from a plex. It should be quicker to reset their work but the same speed to capture the plex from "neutral".

This change would allow a single pilot to stop a single pilot capturing a system without warping, warping, warping, warping.. until their head explodes.


We have talked about this mechanic for YEARS. The way to implement this in the best possible way is:

1. Faction A starts running the timer, as today.

2. Faction B enters the plex and a fight happens, the timer stops as today.

3. Faction B wins the fight. The timer now kicks into "Auto tick back to neutral mode".

4. Faction B now leaves the plex, the timer will continue to tick back to neutral as if Faction B was still in the plex. This will continue until either A)The timer reaches the neutral position or B)Faction A returns. Either way, go back to step 1.

EDIT: This way the farmer is penalized for running away and the "winner" is not penalized by having to sit in a plex to undo the work of the enemy he just defeated. At the same time, the rollback is not instant so the loser still has time to regroup and come back without losing ALL their progress.

EDIT2: Neutrals have no impact on this method. Also, if Faction A just leaves the plex, the timer does not start auto reverse countdown. Faction B actually has to enter the plex to start the auto reverse countdown.

.

Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
#52 - 2017-02-22 20:11:23 UTC
I like the accelerated o-plexing idea better. Reason being, I've had situations where I've chased a stabbed d-plexer back and forth for a long time between two plexes, and the automatic timer rollback would not work well in that situation.
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2017-02-22 20:29:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Andre Vauban
Boozbaz wrote:
I like the accelerated o-plexing idea better. Reason being, I've had situations where I've chased a stabbed d-plexer back and forth for a long time between two plexes, and the automatic timer rollback would not work well in that situation.


Yes it would. The farmer makes zero progress and you undo any progress he has made as long as you actively chase him around.

In the grand scheme of things, this farmer problem is relatively minor and any sort of accelerated rollback will have massive consequences when both sides are actually pvping. The attackers/defenders progress will be entirely wiped out for losing the first round of the battle for the plex. This will completely change the "king of the hill" type battles we have now and instead encourage one side to form a massive blob that warps from plex to plex "winning" for about 10 seconds while negating all the time the other side has put in. Will it work, sure but it will completely change plex warfare to big blobs and it will essentially become impossible to close any plexes.

.

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#54 - 2017-02-22 20:36:34 UTC
Andre Vauban wrote:
Boozbaz wrote:
I like the accelerated o-plexing idea better. Reason being, I've had situations where I've chased a stabbed d-plexer back and forth for a long time between two plexes, and the automatic timer rollback would not work well in that situation.


Yes it would. The farmer makes zero progress and you undo any progress he has made as long as you actively chase him around.

In the grand scheme of things, this farmer problem is relatively minor and any sort of accelerated rollback will have massive consequences when both sides are actually pvping. The attackers/defenders progress will be entirely wiped out for losing the first round of the battle for the plex. This will completely change the "king of the hill" type battles we have now and instead encourage one side to form a massive blob that warps from plex to plex "winning" for about 10 seconds while negating all the time the other side has put in. Will it work, sure but it will completely change plex warfare to big blobs and it will essentially become impossible to close any plexes.


They dont care, farmers are to blame for everything, they must be stopped whatever the cost /narrative.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#55 - 2017-02-22 21:43:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Andre Vauban wrote:
Boozbaz wrote:
I like the accelerated o-plexing idea better. Reason being, I've had situations where I've chased a stabbed d-plexer back and forth for a long time between two plexes, and the automatic timer rollback would not work well in that situation.


Yes it would. The farmer makes zero progress and you undo any progress he has made as long as you actively chase him around.

In the grand scheme of things, this farmer problem is relatively minor and any sort of accelerated rollback will have massive consequences when both sides are actually pvping. The attackers/defenders progress will be entirely wiped out for losing the first round of the battle for the plex. This will completely change the "king of the hill" type battles we have now and instead encourage one side to form a massive blob that warps from plex to plex "winning" for about 10 seconds while negating all the time the other side has put in. Will it work, sure but it will completely change plex warfare to big blobs and it will essentially become impossible to close any plexes.


How fast the timers rollback can be tweaked. I agree with Master Sergeant MacRobert on that. IMO CCP should be in the fifth round of iterating on rollbacks and how they work by now - if they would have implemented them 3 years ago like they promised. But whatever, if the rollbacks are too fast then they can be slowed down.

I think the variety of plexes and the number of systems in faction war will prevent this blob for the win scenario you describe. Is the side with more pilots going to be in frigates? Then the side that is trying to take the plex can fit to destroyers/afs or cruisers designed to kill off frigates. If the larger side is in larger ships then the side with fewer pilots can go into novices. Sure having more numbers will be an advantage. But the side with fewer pilots will still be able to make gains and put up a fight.

Here is the other thing. If the side that has more pilots is not actually taking the plexes then they are not making progress themselves. This should count as a win for the side with fewer pilots. If the larger side leaves some pilots behind to take plexes then the side with fewer pilots can try to attack those left behind. And thus we have actual strategy and tactics over several systems at the same time.

But on the whole I think it would actually work out like real wars. That is instead of everyone just running from all combat or forming one giant ball of ships and leaving everything else unguarded players would actually spread their resources/fighters throughout the warzone in tactical ways. They would decide whether to try to hold certain areas and have to accept they cant keep others. Factions would have to depend on certain corps/pilots/fleets to hold certain areas so resources could be dedicated elsewhere.

The side that has better organization and logistics (supply and access to material not "healer" ships) will have a large advantage. But those will be more fun strategy considerations than having alts running from plex to plex like rabbits. Or just forming a blob to take the occasional "home" system.

When people are focused on taking a single system then nothing will really change. Then blob wins now and will win after the change as well. But the day to day operation of trying to win sov across the relevant regions would be much more engaging and fun.

edit1: Crosi, The problem with rabbit plexing being the most efficient way to gain sov is that it is not fun. You may like to do it and a few others. But consider that there are probably only about 50 people in eve that really care about winning sov for their faction. (if that) It's not seen as praiseworthy or fun. Maybe you think its fine and are one of the fifty. But any objective person should see that CCP can do better with this. Thousands of people are fighting for sov in null sec and null sec has huge disadvantages compared to fighting in fw. FW has huge potential as a fun pvp war setting. CCP just needs to make the 2 changes they promised.

Edit 2: Andre, I didn't mean to suggest it would be blob ftw on any sort of rollback. But others have claimed that rollbacks would lead to blobbing regardless of the way rollbacks worked. And I think CCP can make it so that is not such an issue. If it instantly went back to neutral everytime you warped out that might be a problem. But again ccp can tweak this. Maybe it rolls back 2xs as fast or something.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Aves Asio
#56 - 2017-02-22 21:46:37 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:


And i didnt say rabbit plexing is 'not a big deal'. I said its actually a beneficial artifact of the tier system. Some may only see the times when it keeps the winning side on top, but those people are ignoring the other times when the farmers swing the pendulum. This gives all sides a 'tide' to sail upon rather than a 'hill to climb' against a richer, more cohesive force.


The pendulum swings when the farmers switch sides, by that time the hill has been climbed. The oplexers have done their jobs they broke the opposition, conquered enough sistems to support t3 and they have also donated to push for t3, thats when farmers make the swich. Not before because its not worth it for them, so if anything its the farmers that sail the tide.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#57 - 2017-02-22 22:03:37 UTC
Aves Asio wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:


And i didnt say rabbit plexing is 'not a big deal'. I said its actually a beneficial artifact of the tier system. Some may only see the times when it keeps the winning side on top, but those people are ignoring the other times when the farmers swing the pendulum. This gives all sides a 'tide' to sail upon rather than a 'hill to climb' against a richer, more cohesive force.


The pendulum swings when the farmers switch sides, by that time the hill has been climbed. The oplexers have done their jobs they broke the opposition, conquered enough sistems to support t3 and they have also donated to push for t3, thats when farmers make the swich. Not before because its not worth it for them, so if anything its the farmers that sail the tide.



Oplexing pays better than defense plexing so rabbits help it swing. Plus I am not sure but I assume you can still cross plex. So even if Caldari is tier one you can run a bunch of empty gallente systems as amarr if amarr is higher tiered.

The pendulum should not be swung by rabbits it should be swung by pvpers. If it takes too long to flip a system without all the rabbit alts then ccp can adjust the vp per plex. But the first step is to make fw sov a fun pvp game.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#58 - 2017-02-22 22:08:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Its far more complicated than that. I cant say its wrong since some farmers swap when the 'losing' side hits tier 3.

More accurately, the losing side finally decides to push tier 2. In caldaris case, they had enough systems to do this for months but for some reason decided not to. Once at tier 2, the high ISK/LP value of caldari LP attracts farmers when then pushes occupancy to the point that cal mil can upgrade to tier 3.

During this time, gal mil pokes at caldari homesystems like hasm, okka and aivonen in order to shake cal mils confidence.
Cal mil push vlil to show gal mil that they arnt untouchable.
Overall, cal mil take enaluri, probably the best statement of confidence cal mil has made in a very long time.

While there were probably other important events im not aware of since im not active atm, these are what i see as the main events in the last year in our WZ. Non of them were driven solely by farmers. Farmers were just one aspect of the tide that made these events possible.

Asking Pvpers to plex up 60 back end systems uncontested is unrealistic with current numbers. Farmers making isk and providing fodder, and some surprises to would be hunters, is in no way a detriment to whatever narrative the more serious players want to adopt.

The way to fix farmers, if to recruit more proactive pvpers and populate space which would deny farmers LP while not effecting others ability to support themselves. Short of that, there is no problem with a horde of easily influenced and predicted farmers adding another layer of strategy onto the current meta.

'Fixing farmers' is not really any different to 'Make more space empty'.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#59 - 2017-02-22 22:21:08 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:

Asking Pvpers to plex up 60 back end systems uncontested is unrealistic with current numbers. ..


The numbers of pvpers would greatly increase if ccp made the 2 changes.

If by joining militia you
1) had an intel tool that could tell you real time were plexes were being captured right by you instead of having to wander around looking

2)knew that the plexers were ready to fight because if they didn't stay and fight for the plex the timer would roll back and they would lose progress

then

Many many more pvpers would join fw and there would be no "back end" systems. The whole war zone would be full of pvpers fighting over plexes.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#60 - 2017-02-22 22:23:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Having 2 bullet points is not the same as having 2 good points.

I count no good points.

People dont avoid FW because they lack perfect game delivered intel. This is not delivered in null sec but they dont have population issues. Well, they do have density issues. I suppose that would be fixed if they ALSO had perfect game delivered intel telling them where their enemies are?

People dont avoid FW because their ability to harass evasion farmers is not quite as effective as they would like it to be.