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Dev blog: Building Dreams: Introducing Engineering Complexes

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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#821 - 2016-10-31 21:15:31 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

To go along with these changes, the bonuses of the rigs themselves will be adjusted as well:
  • Material Reduction Rig Base Bonus: 2% T1, 2.4% T2
  • Time Reduction Rig Base Bonus: 20% T1, 24% T2
  • Cost Reduction Rig Base Bonus: 10% T1, 12% T2
  • Lowsec rig bonus multiplier: 1.9x
  • Nullsec rig bonus multiplier: 2.1x

The end result of these changes should be a better balance between encouraging benefits of specialization and providing strong general bonuses that work for all science and industry jobs.

You still have failed to address two glaring issues with this change. And introduced a third.

Firstly the fact that you can't follow the market unless you have about 10 EC's, or belong to one of the very few groups able to build XL EC's and are permitted access. The rigs need to apply to all production, and then the service modules themselves be a bit more limited with XL structures able to use more generic service modules. A producer should not have to destroy permanent items to follow weekly shifts in the market, or run 10 structures.
The start up fuel costs already work to prevent hotswapping service modules on a daily basis from being efficient. So there is no need to double lock them in.

The second is you are continuing to trash high sec. There is no reason to penalise low sec & high sec production when these structures are vulnerable. You can't dodge a war dec with them, and low sec is if anything more vulnerable than null due to the lack of sov blocks and the constant thoroughfare low gets.
The bonuses should be the same in all areas of space. The 'lower risk of needing a wardec' in high sec is more than balanced by the vastly weaker defences in highsec due to no AOE weapons being permitted, which makes the defences on the structures pathetic relatively and far weaker than POS defences.

The third is the Isk advantage given to the XL structure. You have already given these structures an advantage in the range of production they can do at once. Now you are doubling down and not only letting them produce across the entire market but also giving them an isk advantage on the market as well. 2% might not seem like much, but as tight as margins are on many items that could be as much as 50% of the profit margin.
DiDDleR
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#822 - 2016-10-31 22:53:49 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
[quote=CCP Fozzie]

We also agree with the feedback that the fuel costs are too high in the initial design. So we've reduced the fuel cost of all the Engineering Service Modules (by -40% for the Manufacturing, Research and Invention services, -20% for Capital Shipyards and -10% for Supercapital Shipyards)
The new fuel requirement design is:
  • Manufacturing, Research, Invention: 12 blocks per hour (9 with EC bonus)
  • Capital Shipyards: 24 blocks per hour (18 with EC bonus)
  • Supercapital Shipyards: 36 blocks per hour (27 with EC bonus)


Big thanks to everyone posting feedback in this thread so far, and to the CSM.


That is much better Fozzie!!! :)

Will there be any pirate faction modifications / rigs to enable fuel usage reduction further as there is currently with the faction towers?
Sullen Decimus
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#823 - 2016-11-01 06:49:44 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey folks, thanks for all the replies so far. I'm going through everything and I'll be making a big Q&A post with answers at some point soon.
Whoops, guess I should have put a ™ on that "soon". Sorry for the delay folks, I got pulled into some other things that required my time. Work on updating the design to help address your concerns has continued over the past two weeks however, with the CSM playing a big part in discussing the options with us. The people taking the lead during this period are just not as big into forum posting as I am.

[deleted for length]

Big thanks to everyone posting feedback in this thread so far, and to the CSM.


Thanks for the shout out fozzie. I think we can all agree this is a much better format than the original and thank you for listening to our concerns.

CSM XI Member

Twitter: Sullen_Decimus

Tweetfleet: @sullen_decimus
unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#824 - 2016-11-01 08:52:25 UTC
Ugg, terrible changes, i will be using a pos untill they are gone.
Since there are NO ways people can cooperate in game for industry this will kill industry .
Overproduction will be rampant since you are stuck in a line of products when setting up a EC.
Turning services on and off it also not an option because of the long delays and fuel costs.
The only way to survive as a lone industrialist is to be able to switch to an other product line swiftly wich is not possible with a EC.
So you can only produce more wich will wreck the market.
Also if you want to earn back the 5 times bigger cost , geuss what overproduction.
Also the bigger cost in fuel makes it even more important to have all industry jobs filled constantly wich means more overproduction.
All this does is limit industry to only 10 alt players.
There is and never will be social industry gameplay.
You can not setup an production chain with a group of player because in a production chain there will always be steps that make more then an other step.
An people will only want to do the most profitable step.

Quote:


Social industrial gameplay is not a thing, because:

- It's dangerous (1): to be effective, you need more than one character. Swapping items, blueprints and the like between your alts is best done with corp hangars. So you either have your own corp, or you are trusting that the corp's directors and CEO will never decide to go rogue and steal everything. My indie toon is never, ever, doing industry in someone else's corp again (unless I only do the equivalent of an F1 pusher, lending my production slots in exchange for a salary, I guess). Did it once, was too stressful.

- It's dangerous (2): if you gather too many industrials in highsec, the indexes will reflect it and you'll be found out and wardecced. Which is not dangerous, but will shut down your operations for a while.

- There's no point to it (1): would you rather trust your alts to handle boring stuff like additional PI and research / manufacturing slots, or ask another human being who will likely have other ideas than your own?

- There's no point to it (2): the game has no accounting mechanisms, so fair profit-sharing is hard. If you do everything by yourself, you're certain you're not getting shafted by management.

- There's no point to it (3): Unlike pvp, there is no loss in efficiency from a 10-people operation and a 10-alts one. Also, the majority of people who want to do industry are autists who like to pore over figures and maximize their profit in order to be THE BIGGEST BADDEST RICHEST MOFO AROUND MWAHAHAHAHA! - and find that being a clog in a rich corp is less satisfying than being the proud owner of your own prosperous indie corp. Just the way things are.

TL-DR: until CCP makes industry something other than "make a few clicks, wait" with most of the work being out of game i.e. market research and calculating your profitability, the only people doing collective industry will be the supers-building corps (and even some of those are solo ops).


And this for a slightly worse security, no guns, worse losses(EC and jobs in progress).
For the attacker there is a slight improvement in loot namely the jobs in progress.

No local in null sec would fix everything!
brinelan
#825 - 2016-11-01 11:21:39 UTC
unimatrix0030 wrote:
Ugg, terrible changes, i will be using a pos untill they are gone.
Since there are NO ways people can cooperate in game for industry this will kill industry .
Overproduction will be rampant since you are stuck in a line of products when setting up a EC.
Turning services on and off it also not an option because of the long delays and fuel costs.
The only way to survive as a lone industrialist is to be able to switch to an other product line swiftly wich is not possible with a EC.
So you can only produce more wich will wreck the market.
Also if you want to earn back the 5 times bigger cost , geuss what overproduction.
Also the bigger cost in fuel makes it even more important to have all industry jobs filled constantly wich means more overproduction.
All this does is limit industry to only 10 alt players.
There is and never will be social industry gameplay.
You can not setup an production chain with a group of player because in a production chain there will always be steps that make more then an other step.
An people will only want to do the most profitable step.



You will still get bonuses across the board to all jobs, the rigs just enhance those bonuses so yes you can chase the market all you want and get at least some bonus.

Quote:
The big one is removing the rig strength bonus from the Complexes and replacing it with flat across the board bonuses to job materials, time and cost. This means that when you are running a job in an Engineering Complex without the specific rigs for that job type installed, you'll still receive some strong bonuses. The rigs will then allow you to specialize above and beyond the generalized base bonuses.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=495425&p=38

Pos structures didnt always get me bonuses and industry was just fine.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#826 - 2016-11-01 11:59:08 UTC
brinelan wrote:
unimatrix0030 wrote:
Ugg, terrible changes, i will be using a pos untill they are gone.
Since there are NO ways people can cooperate in game for industry this will kill industry .
Overproduction will be rampant since you are stuck in a line of products when setting up a EC.
Turning services on and off it also not an option because of the long delays and fuel costs.
The only way to survive as a lone industrialist is to be able to switch to an other product line swiftly wich is not possible with a EC.
So you can only produce more wich will wreck the market.
Also if you want to earn back the 5 times bigger cost , geuss what overproduction.
Also the bigger cost in fuel makes it even more important to have all industry jobs filled constantly wich means more overproduction.
All this does is limit industry to only 10 alt players.
There is and never will be social industry gameplay.
You can not setup an production chain with a group of player because in a production chain there will always be steps that make more then an other step.
An people will only want to do the most profitable step.



You will still get bonuses across the board to all jobs, the rigs just enhance those bonuses so yes you can chase the market all you want and get at least some bonus.

Quote:
The big one is removing the rig strength bonus from the Complexes and replacing it with flat across the board bonuses to job materials, time and cost. This means that when you are running a job in an Engineering Complex without the specific rigs for that job type installed, you'll still receive some strong bonuses. The rigs will then allow you to specialize above and beyond the generalized base bonuses.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=495425&p=38

Pos structures didnt always get me bonuses and industry was just fine.

Of course it was. Pos's are, cheaper to run, cheaper to buy, far less vulnerable, can be moved to chase best index systems, are far more flexible, than any EC will ever be.

The ONLY players an EC is designed to work for are those part of a mega group, who won't have to build the EC themselves and therefore won't have to worry about not keeping the EC profitable but simply concentrate on their own jobs and profit.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#827 - 2016-11-01 14:54:04 UTC
A quick request to the number crunchers (I have a new baby so can't think :D). What will I need EC-wise to do tech III construction in our WH? Will a medium EC cover the invention and construction services for me? I'm assuming there will need to be two EC's, one for gas reactions and one for the actual invention/build?
Brown Pathfinder
Black Spot on Parchment
#828 - 2016-11-01 15:00:21 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
A quick request to the number crunchers (I have a new baby so can't think :D). What will I need EC-wise to do tech III construction in our WH? Will a medium EC cover the invention and construction services for me? I'm assuming there will need to be two EC's, one for gas reactions and one for the actual invention/build?


There is no support for gas reactions in EC yet, but you can get the modules for invention or research to get some of the t3 stuff done and you can build t3's in EC aswell.
eyecyno
Omega's Doom
#829 - 2016-11-01 15:47:04 UTC
Late to the thread and tried to find it but couldn't.

Is the rig for cap components the same for cap building? I don't see a rig for building caps.
exiik Shardani
Imperial Spacedrill and Logistics
#830 - 2016-11-02 01:48:59 UTC
Why Sotio does not have at least one tube for heavy fighters? Keepstar has 5, so when Sotio is 5x cheaper/vulnerable then there should be one tube for heavy fighters...


Btw do we get structure armor plates or shield plates or hardeners or any other fitable defensive modules? any POS can be reinforce, any ship can be "hell tank" so it should be possible for structures as well (when they are fitable) Smile

sry for my English :-(
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#831 - 2016-11-02 17:56:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
exiik Shardani wrote:
Btw do we get structure armor plates or shield plates or hardeners or any other fitable defensive modules? any POS can be reinforce, any ship can be "hell tank" so it should be possible for structures as well (when they are fitable) Smile

There are none, plus there are not enough slots.

Example: Azbel (large)
* High [4]: Two anti-subcapital launchers
* Mid [3]: Warp Scrambler, Target Painter, Webifier
* Low [2]: 2x Ballistic Control System
* Service [5]: Manufacturing, Research, Invention, Reprocessing

... and the mids will cap-out after 17 minutes of continuous activation.

Don't even think of fitting a market module, as that will nearly max the fitting, and alone uses as much fuel as a large tower (it's a citadel module, so no fuel reduction bonus).
Jonathon Silence
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#832 - 2016-11-02 23:45:50 UTC
Any word on what is going to happen to the Outpost BPO's?

You mention that we will not be able to deploy/anchor them from December onwards. Is there any chance that we we can get them converted to ISK soon as they have no value now. Any word on what you are going to do with the BPC's?

What about Outpost deployables? Will these be converted to ISK? Able to be traded in for isk?

Cheers.
RainReaper
RRN Industries
#833 - 2016-11-02 23:53:10 UTC
Jonathon Silence wrote:
Any word on what is going to happen to the Outpost BPO's?

You mention that we will not be able to deploy/anchor them from December onwards. Is there any chance that we we can get them converted to ISK soon as they have no value now. Any word on what you are going to do with the BPC's?

What about Outpost deployables? Will these be converted to ISK? Able to be traded in for isk?

Cheers.

I THINK any BPOs will get converted to liquid isk the moment they go and remove the bpos. When they removed other BPOs in the past I remember that they did the same then but I cant say 100% so dont take my words for granted lol.
exiik Shardani
Imperial Spacedrill and Logistics
#834 - 2016-11-03 03:08:00 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
exiik Shardani wrote:
Btw do we get structure armor plates or shield plates or hardeners or any other fitable defensive modules? any POS can be reinforce, any ship can be "hell tank" so it should be possible for structures as well (when they are fitable) Smile

There are none, plus there are not enough slots.

Example: Azbel (large)
* High [4]: Two anti-subcapital launchers
* Mid [3]: Warp Scrambler, Target Painter, Webifier
* Low [2]: 2x Ballistic Control System
* Service [5]: Manufacturing, Research, Invention, Reprocessing

... and the mids will cap-out after 17 minutes of continuous activation.

Don't even think of fitting a market module, as that will nearly max the fitting, and alone uses as much fuel as a large tower (it's a citadel module, so no fuel reduction bonus).



are not subcapital launchers and ballistic control just wasting of ISK's? 3x guardian in attack fleet and they mitigate all damage even on your fit Azbel. current large poses can be near to voley any logi, but not two structures subcap launchers...


I pretty much like to have option to fit two hardeners or plates or capacitor power relay or so into low slots. because actual low slots are only worth when you fit anti-capital launchers.
if I want be fun I just say "subcapital launchers has similar effect like festival launchers"Big smile

sry for my English :-(
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#835 - 2016-11-03 04:11:50 UTC
exiik Shardani wrote:
if I want be fun I just say "subcapital launchers has similar effect like festival launchers"Big smile

They are significantly worse than festival launchers because they are not as pretty, cost more and take up more fittings.

Big smile
erg cz
Blood Blind
Short Bus Syndicate
#836 - 2016-11-04 12:30:02 UTC
Astrahus have those bonuses:

25% bonus to all Citadel rig strength
25% reduction to all Citadel service fuel costs
25% bonus to all Structure Missile Launcher damage

Am I right?

Raitaru has this:
25% bonus to all structure engineering rig effects
5% reduction in manufacturing and science required time
25% reduction in Engineering Service Module fuel consumption

If "25% reduction to all Citadel service fuel costs" == "25% reduction in Engineering Service Module fuel consumption",
and
"25% bonus to all Citadel rig strength" == "25% bonus to all structure engineering rig effects"
then
the only bonus Raitaru has over Astrahus is "5% reduction in manufacturing and science required time"

Really? 5 % time bonus only? with such disadvantages like 3 service slots only (you can not reprocess in full industry fitted raitaru) and terrible defence capabilities, raitaru should cost half what it planned to cost right now. Or everyone will use astrahus for the sake of reprocessing and manufacture on one place and better defense.

Absolutely free head start for newcomers!. Just click the link and get extra 250 000 SP!
RainReaper
RRN Industries
#837 - 2016-11-04 14:53:32 UTC  |  Edited by: RainReaper
erg cz wrote:
Astrahus have those bonuses:

25% bonus to all Citadel rig strength
25% reduction to all Citadel service fuel costs
25% bonus to all Structure Missile Launcher damage

Am I right?

Raitaru has this:
25% bonus to all structure engineering rig effects
5% reduction in manufacturing and science required time
25% reduction in Engineering Service Module fuel consumption

If "25% reduction to all Citadel service fuel costs" == "25% reduction in Engineering Service Module fuel consumption",
and
"25% bonus to all Citadel rig strength" == "25% bonus to all structure engineering rig effects"
then
the only bonus Raitaru has over Astrahus is "5% reduction in manufacturing and science required time"

Really? 5 % time bonus only? with such disadvantages like 3 service slots only (you can not reprocess in full industry fitted raitaru) and terrible defence capabilities, raitaru should cost half what it planned to cost right now. Or everyone will use astrahus for the sake of reprocessing and manufacture on one place and better defense.


They have changed things since the dev blog. The Raitaru will now have a 1% base ME reduction to anything it build, a 15% time reduction to anything it builds and also a 3% instalation cost reduction to anything it builds.
On top of its 25% fuel reduction for any engineering services instaled.

Also the Azbel will have a 20% time reduction and a 4% install cost reduction and then the Sotiyo will have a 30% time reduction and a 5% install cost reduction on top of the 1% base me reduction.
They also removed the 25% engineering rig bonus and slightly weakened the engineering rigs.
They did this cause people dident like the absolute specialization nature of it all.
So the hulls now got a base bonus to anything it builds while the rigs gives it a bit of specialization.
Making it so that you can build anything in any of the structures more efficiently than any npc station while not being forced to search everywhere for that one structure with the rigs you need to gain a proffit.

Also the fuel prices for the services have gone down. the 3 base ones the Raitaru can use only use 12 blocks each now instead of 20 blocks. and with the bonus that is 9 blocks each for a total of 27 blocks every hour.
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#838 - 2016-11-04 17:08:18 UTC
Sigh! A small POS is 20%-25% the cost of a Raitaru; consumes 10 fuel blocks/hour and gets a 2% ME plus 25% TE bonus on everything it builds. You also get a 40% TE bonus for copies and a 50% TE bonus for invention. Most important, it's portable. Move to a new system if the index gets too high, store it in a station if wardecced.

Industry in Eve scales beautifully across multiple characters but poorly across multiple players. This encourages small industrial operations which absolutely require shared hangar space to function efficiently - resulting in the industrial ALT corp, or possibly a small group of RL friends where trust is complete. A POS may be a pain for a large group but it works perfectly if every character is a director and the number of players is small enough so there can be both private and shared corporate divisions.

You can argue that small operations should simply rent an office in someone else's structure but I don't think that will be popular unless we have enforceable lease agreements. Eve players may be the nicest people in the world but we have not cultivated a reputation for trustworthiness.

We need a structure that reflects the reality of industry in Eve - I don't believe the EC is that structure.
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#839 - 2016-11-04 17:55:55 UTC
erg cz wrote:
Astrahus have those bonuses:

25% bonus to all Citadel rig strength
25% reduction to all Citadel service fuel costs
25% bonus to all Structure Missile Launcher damage

Am I right?

Raitaru has this:
25% bonus to all structure engineering rig effects
5% reduction in manufacturing and science required time
25% reduction in Engineering Service Module fuel consumption

If "25% reduction to all Citadel service fuel costs" == "25% reduction in Engineering Service Module fuel consumption",
and
"25% bonus to all Citadel rig strength" == "25% bonus to all structure engineering rig effects"
then
the only bonus Raitaru has over Astrahus is "5% reduction in manufacturing and science required time"

Really? 5 % time bonus only? with such disadvantages like 3 service slots only (you can not reprocess in full industry fitted raitaru) and terrible defence capabilities, raitaru should cost half what it planned to cost right now. Or everyone will use astrahus for the sake of reprocessing and manufacture on one place and better defense.


Citadel services != Engineering Services
Citadel rigs != Engineering rigs

because

Engineering Complexes are not Citadels
Citadel is a structure
Engineering Complex is a structure
Now Life
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#840 - 2016-11-05 20:40:43 UTC
is it already released how much the bpo cost will be of EC / rigs /service mods ?