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Dev blog: Building Dreams: Introducing Engineering Complexes

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Author
RainReaper
Bras-Tek Industries
Nefatari Union
#781 - 2016-10-27 19:29:37 UTC
Nfynity Prime wrote:
The changes are in the right direction, but the fuel costs are still twice what a medium POS setup costs, for less functionality, more cost, and more vulnerability. Now I can live with putting the structure at risk, but it would be nice to have comparable functionality and costs in the new structures, in comparison to a POS. After all, we are putting more at risk, so I would think we should at least get as much out of them as the structures they are meant to replace, if not more.

Unless the fuel costs are reduced further it looks like its back to the NPC station with 0 risk and no chance of content generation for a lot of us.

twice? lol in a engineering complex Raitaru the services will cost 27 blocks every hour. thats not twice the cost of a medium.its 35% more than a medium?
Nfynity Prime
Nfynity Prime Corp
Shadow of Nfynity
#782 - 2016-10-27 19:45:10 UTC
RainReaper wrote:
Nfynity Prime wrote:
The changes are in the right direction, but the fuel costs are still twice what a medium POS setup costs, for less functionality, more cost, and more vulnerability. Now I can live with putting the structure at risk, but it would be nice to have comparable functionality and costs in the new structures, in comparison to a POS. After all, we are putting more at risk, so I would think we should at least get as much out of them as the structures they are meant to replace, if not more.

Unless the fuel costs are reduced further it looks like its back to the NPC station with 0 risk and no chance of content generation for a lot of us.

twice? lol in a engineering complex Raitaru the services will cost 27 blocks every hour. thats not twice the cost of a medium.its 35% more than a medium?


Well if you want to be picky, its 68.75% more than my medium faction POS. But my point still stands.
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
#783 - 2016-10-27 19:53:54 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Nfynity Prime wrote:
RainReaper wrote:
Nfynity Prime wrote:
The changes are in the right direction, but the fuel costs are still twice what a medium POS setup costs, for less functionality, more cost, and more vulnerability. Now I can live with putting the structure at risk, but it would be nice to have comparable functionality and costs in the new structures, in comparison to a POS. After all, we are putting more at risk, so I would think we should at least get as much out of them as the structures they are meant to replace, if not more.

Unless the fuel costs are reduced further it looks like its back to the NPC station with 0 risk and no chance of content generation for a lot of us.

twice? lol in a engineering complex Raitaru the services will cost 27 blocks every hour. thats not twice the cost of a medium.its 35% more than a medium?


Well if you want to be picky, its 68.75% more than my medium faction POS. But my point still stands.


At 21K/fuel block, your medium faction POS costs you 242M/mo in fuel and gives a 2% ME bonus, so your payback on the fuel is at about 12 billion in input per month Vs. NPC, and all else being equal.

A 3 service EC with T1 rigs, in HS, would cost about 408M/mo in fuel and give an aggregate 3% ME bonus, putting the payback at about 13.6B in input, relative to NPC. There's also the index benefit baked into the hull, now, which will further reduce that value. If you're that small, sure, go back to NPC or use someone else's EC, but that's not a wildly disparate parity point, now.

You will have less diversity of bonus availability, and on the whole, I think that's a good thing from the standpoint of curtailing overproduction.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Min Jouhinen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#784 - 2016-10-27 20:00:08 UTC
In regards to service modules, will the supercap module allow the production of regular caps or will you need to both both to the complex?
RainReaper
Bras-Tek Industries
Nefatari Union
#785 - 2016-10-27 20:01:50 UTC
Min Jouhinen wrote:
In regards to service modules, will the supercap module allow the production of regular caps or will you need to both both to the complex?

the super cap one can accualy build supers and regualr capitals. so you dont need both. but you do still need the supercapital idnex thing in ordewr to online one in the sotiyo
Arronicus
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#786 - 2016-10-27 20:02:28 UTC
Nfynity Prime wrote:
The changes are in the right direction, but the fuel costs are still twice what a medium POS setup costs, for less functionality, more cost, and more vulnerability. Now I can live with putting the structure at risk, but it would be nice to have comparable functionality and costs in the new structures, in comparison to a POS. After all, we are putting more at risk, so I would think we should at least get as much out of them as the structures they are meant to replace, if not more.

Unless the fuel costs are reduced further it looks like its back to the NPC station with 0 risk and no chance of content generation for a lot of us.


You're stuck in a completely wrong, highly entitled mindset here. You are under the belief that ccp needs to, or at least should make new content as broad or effective as the content it replaces, and that is broken thinking. Sometimes, to spur positive change, you have to tone things down, to scale them back. Being able to produce everything in one spot, very cheaply, was not healthy for either competition, or risk reward. The sooner you and others get rid of the idea of having pos level efficiency and cost, the sooner you can start enjoying the new industrial landscape of eve, with more specialization and cooperation.
Arronicus
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#787 - 2016-10-27 20:04:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Arronicus
RainReaper wrote:
Min Jouhinen wrote:
In regards to service modules, will the supercap module allow the production of regular caps or will you need to both both to the complex?

the super cap one can accualy build supers and regualr capitals. so you dont need both. but you do still need the supercapital idnex thing in ordewr to online one in the sotiyo


Dev blog specifically stated that installation of the super service required the regular capital service. When did they change this?

Edit: this was wrong
RainReaper
Bras-Tek Industries
Nefatari Union
#788 - 2016-10-27 20:06:18 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
RainReaper wrote:
Min Jouhinen wrote:
In regards to service modules, will the supercap module allow the production of regular caps or will you need to both both to the complex?

the super cap one can accualy build supers and regualr capitals. so you dont need both. but you do still need the supercapital idnex thing in ordewr to online one in the sotiyo


Dev blog specifically stated that installation of the super service required the regular capital service. When did they change this?

...well i might ahve missed that part. i jsut remember checking the service on sisi and the sueprcapital one saying it allows both. but maybe it meant both as in you need the regualr one anyways?
RainReaper
Bras-Tek Industries
Nefatari Union
#789 - 2016-10-27 20:09:33 UTC
RainReaper wrote:
Arronicus wrote:
RainReaper wrote:
Min Jouhinen wrote:
In regards to service modules, will the supercap module allow the production of regular caps or will you need to both both to the complex?

the super cap one can accualy build supers and regualr capitals. so you dont need both. but you do still need the supercapital idnex thing in ordewr to online one in the sotiyo


Dev blog specifically stated that installation of the super service required the regular capital service. When did they change this?

...well i might ahve missed that part. i jsut remember checking the service on sisi and the sueprcapital one saying it allows both. but maybe it meant both as in you need the regualr one anyways?


anyways it IS possible to try it out on sisi. everything is there. go try it and see what you can do with it.
Arronicus
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#790 - 2016-10-27 20:09:58 UTC
RainReaper wrote:
Arronicus wrote:
RainReaper wrote:
Min Jouhinen wrote:
In regards to service modules, will the supercap module allow the production of regular caps or will you need to both both to the complex?

the super cap one can accualy build supers and regualr capitals. so you dont need both. but you do still need the supercapital idnex thing in ordewr to online one in the sotiyo


Dev blog specifically stated that installation of the super service required the regular capital service. When did they change this?

...well i might ahve missed that part. i jsut remember checking the service on sisi and the sueprcapital one saying it allows both. but maybe it meant both as in you need the regualr one anyways?


I just reread the entire Dev blog, and couldn't find any evidence supporting my statement. I must have misread the first few times. Looks like you really don't need the capital for the super
RainReaper
Bras-Tek Industries
Nefatari Union
#791 - 2016-10-27 20:13:45 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
RainReaper wrote:
Arronicus wrote:
RainReaper wrote:
Min Jouhinen wrote:
In regards to service modules, will the supercap module allow the production of regular caps or will you need to both both to the complex?

the super cap one can accualy build supers and regualr capitals. so you dont need both. but you do still need the supercapital idnex thing in ordewr to online one in the sotiyo


Dev blog specifically stated that installation of the super service required the regular capital service. When did they change this?

...well i might ahve missed that part. i jsut remember checking the service on sisi and the sueprcapital one saying it allows both. but maybe it meant both as in you need the regualr one anyways?


I just reread the entire Dev blog, and couldn't find any evidence supporting my statement. I must have misread the first few times. Looks like you really don't need the capital for the super

well there you go :p ANYWAYS it is possible to test thigns out on the test server. so in order to be 100% sure you can go to sisi. and just try it out. then you wont have to assume anything lol
Nfynity Prime
Nfynity Prime Corp
Shadow of Nfynity
#792 - 2016-10-27 20:24:42 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
Nfynity Prime wrote:
The changes are in the right direction, but the fuel costs are still twice what a medium POS setup costs, for less functionality, more cost, and more vulnerability. Now I can live with putting the structure at risk, but it would be nice to have comparable functionality and costs in the new structures, in comparison to a POS. After all, we are putting more at risk, so I would think we should at least get as much out of them as the structures they are meant to replace, if not more.

Unless the fuel costs are reduced further it looks like its back to the NPC station with 0 risk and no chance of content generation for a lot of us.


You're stuck in a completely wrong, highly entitled mindset here. You are under the belief that ccp needs to, or at least should make new content as broad or effective as the content it replaces, and that is broken thinking. Sometimes, to spur positive change, you have to tone things down, to scale them back. Being able to produce everything in one spot, very cheaply, was not healthy for either competition, or risk reward. The sooner you and others get rid of the idea of having pos level efficiency and cost, the sooner you can start enjoying the new industrial landscape of eve, with more specialization and cooperation.


Not that I really care about your opinion, but tearing things down should lead to something better. The mindset of take whatever you're given and be happy about it is OK for sheep, but I like to build something better. If I don't feel it's better, for my own situation, I just won't use it. But I will still try to advocate making it as good as possible for as many people as possible. We'll just have to disagree on what that path looks like.
Arronicus
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#793 - 2016-10-27 20:45:10 UTC
Nfynity Prime wrote:
Arronicus wrote:
Nfynity Prime wrote:
The changes are in the right direction, but the fuel costs are still twice what a medium POS setup costs, for less functionality, more cost, and more vulnerability. Now I can live with putting the structure at risk, but it would be nice to have comparable functionality and costs in the new structures, in comparison to a POS. After all, we are putting more at risk, so I would think we should at least get as much out of them as the structures they are meant to replace, if not more.

Unless the fuel costs are reduced further it looks like its back to the NPC station with 0 risk and no chance of content generation for a lot of us.


You're stuck in a completely wrong, highly entitled mindset here. You are under the belief that ccp needs to, or at least should make new content as broad or effective as the content it replaces, and that is broken thinking. Sometimes, to spur positive change, you have to tone things down, to scale them back. Being able to produce everything in one spot, very cheaply, was not healthy for either competition, or risk reward. The sooner you and others get rid of the idea of having pos level efficiency and cost, the sooner you can start enjoying the new industrial landscape of eve, with more specialization and cooperation.


Not that I really care about your opinion, but tearing things down should lead to something better. The mindset of take whatever you're given and be happy about it is OK for sheep, but I like to build something better. If I don't feel it's better, for my own situation, I just won't use it. But I will still try to advocate making it as good as possible for as many people as possible. We'll just have to disagree on what that path looks like.


Sometimes I'm a little harsh with my comments, looking back that was one of them, quick apology about the entitled comments.

That said, yes, I think the disagreement here is what constitutes better. I think that a system that promotes cooperation more so than a pos does is better. I think a system that allows public access to industrial structures is better. I think a system that doesn't require roles to use a structure within a corp is better. I think a structure that is publicly visible without warping moon to moon, is better. You're trading a bit of ability to produce EVERYTHING in one place, and a bit of fuel cost, for an absolute truckload of QOL and accessibility/cooperation improvements, not to mention things like being able to go on vacation for 2 weeks with your bpos copying and not needing to worry about losing them.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#794 - 2016-10-27 20:55:52 UTC
Arronicus wrote:


Sometimes I'm a little harsh with my comments, looking back that was one of them, quick apology about the entitled comments.

That said, yes, I think the disagreement here is what constitutes better. I think that a system that promotes cooperation more so than a pos does is better. I think a system that allows public access to industrial structures is better. I think a system that doesn't require roles to use a structure within a corp is better. I think a structure that is publicly visible without warping moon to moon, is better. You're trading a bit of ability to produce EVERYTHING in one place, and a bit of fuel cost, for an absolute truckload of QOL and accessibility/cooperation improvements, not to mention things like being able to go on vacation for 2 weeks with your bpos copying and not needing to worry about losing them.

POS could never produce everything in one place at the same time. Sure you could swap modules out, but it couldn't do everything at the same time.
POS could fit a LOAD more defence in highsec than a M Citadel can, let alone a Medium EC can.
You could just copy in a station when on vacation, most people copied in a station anyway unless a solo corp to prevent corp theft.

These are huge issues for highsec users, the subcapital defences of these structures are weak sauce without the AOE weapons, the Ewar is dramatically reduced. The fuel cost eats into already tight margins. And the dramatically increased risk since these structures can't be torn down and will always drop loot isn't being compensated by appropriately equal ME/TE savings. (Which was the Dev argument for why High Sec POS weren't as good, that they could dodge wardecs)

The argument of just having ME/TE (Etc for Research) rigs, and then picking your specific service modules for what to produce is a very good one as a better system. You can't change at a whim because of the start up cost of the service modules, but it allows you to follow shifts in the market without having to utterly destroy rigs or have 10 different EC's. And allows you to keep the current ability to only have one structure for production.
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
#795 - 2016-10-27 21:03:35 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

These are huge issues for highsec users, the subcapital defences of these structures are weak sauce without the AOE weapons, the Ewar is dramatically reduced. The fuel cost eats into already tight margins. And the dramatically increased risk since these structures can't be torn down and will always drop loot isn't being compensated by appropriately equal ME/TE savings. (Which was the Dev argument for why High Sec POS weren't as good, that they could dodge wardecs)


I plug in 6-8 billion in material every week and I could trivially use an EC without ever being in -any- danger of losing material with virtually no change in my production patterns. This will really only be a concern for building capitals and other items where even a single run is very long. Your average "little guy" should not struggle to schedule his line time around the vuln timer.

Even at the reduced power of an EC, I don't think the structure loot itself would inspire me to bash one.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Nfynity Prime
Nfynity Prime Corp
Shadow of Nfynity
#796 - 2016-10-27 21:04:49 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
Nfynity Prime wrote:
Arronicus wrote:
Nfynity Prime wrote:
The changes are in the right direction, but the fuel costs are still twice what a medium POS setup costs, for less functionality, more cost, and more vulnerability. Now I can live with putting the structure at risk, but it would be nice to have comparable functionality and costs in the new structures, in comparison to a POS. After all, we are putting more at risk, so I would think we should at least get as much out of them as the structures they are meant to replace, if not more.

Unless the fuel costs are reduced further it looks like its back to the NPC station with 0 risk and no chance of content generation for a lot of us.


You're stuck in a completely wrong, highly entitled mindset here. You are under the belief that ccp needs to, or at least should make new content as broad or effective as the content it replaces, and that is broken thinking. Sometimes, to spur positive change, you have to tone things down, to scale them back. Being able to produce everything in one spot, very cheaply, was not healthy for either competition, or risk reward. The sooner you and others get rid of the idea of having pos level efficiency and cost, the sooner you can start enjoying the new industrial landscape of eve, with more specialization and cooperation.


Not that I really care about your opinion, but tearing things down should lead to something better. The mindset of take whatever you're given and be happy about it is OK for sheep, but I like to build something better. If I don't feel it's better, for my own situation, I just won't use it. But I will still try to advocate making it as good as possible for as many people as possible. We'll just have to disagree on what that path looks like.


Sometimes I'm a little harsh with my comments, looking back that was one of them, quick apology about the entitled comments.

That said, yes, I think the disagreement here is what constitutes better. I think that a system that promotes cooperation more so than a pos does is better. I think a system that allows public access to industrial structures is better. I think a system that doesn't require roles to use a structure within a corp is better. I think a structure that is publicly visible without warping moon to moon, is better. You're trading a bit of ability to produce EVERYTHING in one place, and a bit of fuel cost, for an absolute truckload of QOL and accessibility/cooperation improvements, not to mention things like being able to go on vacation for 2 weeks with your bpos copying and not needing to worry about losing them.


Thank you for that response. I can appreciate a difference of opinion. I'm not a big industrialist by any means, but I really do enjoy that part of the game, even if I often don't produce enough to recoup the fuel costs I'm still having fun doing it. I just do a little ice mining to pay for it.. For me that's the whole point of playing a game in the first place, to have fun. I just don't want to spend even more time doing something that isn't exactly exciting to cover the overhead costs and have reduced functionality and increased risks and structure costs in the bargain, just to play a part of the game that I enjoy. There are of course some good things about the new structures, such as being able to run jobs over a day in length more safely, so I'm not saying it's all bad.
permion
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#797 - 2016-10-27 22:28:29 UTC
I can see a handful of people to get the numbers to work now. even faster if you decide you don't need to run every service.

It even solves some of my biggest gripes with industry where new/only-friendly(IE trustable, but not billions worth trustable) players that wanted to do industry in an industry corp, they couldn't be allowed to actually interact with corporate assets because of the risks. Basically cutting them out from a lot of the player-interaction loop that keeps them in game.

Though they're still a major nerf. especially since you've spent the past decade and a half brainwashing your community to not use industry in the way you're trying to make them use it now(in groups). And actual defenses are just way worse, with more incentive to actually attack them.

Keeping POSes around as long as you're going to is going to keep them nerfed a bit worse as well I imagine, since after all the market/player forces adapt I imagine there will be a lower ice demand if people actually do group up in a New-Structures a bit more than they do with Old-Structures. Hard to tell if they're actually going to with how hard you trained them with old systems.
exiik Shardani
Imperial Spacedrill and Logistics
Rezeda Regnum
#798 - 2016-10-28 01:15:10 UTC
rigs cost :-D lol

XL T2 rigs needs more t2 salvage than is actually for sale on Jita and price (really titan cost for one rig)...



CCPls why do add something what is almost impossible build and for price that has negative ROI... :-(

sry for my English :-(

Rabbit P
Nuwa Foundation
The Therapists
#799 - 2016-10-28 02:21:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Rabbit P
question about rig affecting cap/supercap manufacture

in the rig table , no L-rig will applies to cap/supercap manufacture

then in the XL-rig part, Standup XL-Set Ship Manufacturing Efficiency only state "ship"
do those rig also apply to cap/supercap manufacture or just apply to subcap manufacture?

it should be the latter case, but can fozzie give us a clear statement about this?


also, after the bonus of EC change from rig strength bonus to flat across the board bonuses
does Azbel bonus apply to capital manufacture?
does Sotiyo bonus apple to supercapital manufacture?

if yes , then building supercapital in sotiyo will -1% materials and -30% build time?
Babbet Bunny
#800 - 2016-10-28 06:01:26 UTC
Excellent update.

The fuel costs are now reasonable.

I am still troubled by the amount of rigs. Combining bonus for both T1 and T2 of a given item would reduce the unnecessary complexity and permit a T2 builder to use only one structure.

Currently the T2 ME rigs ROI is too long. Only a 0.3% material cost improvement over T1 rib in high sec (0.7% in null). Calculation based on 400 T2 frigate build cycle.

With the current stats and medium rig mess, I would not setup a medium EC for production. The research time savings and fewer rigs in this area make for perfect medium EC r & d stations.

A large production EC would double productivity over an NPC station and pay for itself in one month.

Thank you CCP Fozzie for the update.

Please revisit the rig options. Reduce the options and possibly remove the cost bonus ones.