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The problem with the current systems is you are not risking anything by deploying a POS in highsec. You are right, you could leave your undefended industrial POS up and keep churning out product during a war, or you can do what almost every industrialists does and pull it down and lose nothing. That is not risk. At best it is a disruption of your operation, but your assets are not at risk. You are fully benefiting from all your in-space industrial structures with literally zero risk of losing them as you have a get-out-of-war-free card in the 24h warm-up period to a war.

That is silly. Why force industrialists to click a bunch of times to put up, and then take down a structure that cannot be lost? It is just useless overhead that provides no additional game play or choices to the industrialist. It just makes it mandatory for everyone who wants to build anything to go through the motions of setting up an industrial POS they have no intention of defending so they can compete with all the other industrialists who do the same. It makes total sense to push these industrialists back into NPC stations where they can still be invulnerable and build without any requirement to defend their operation, and are free of the tedium of POS setup and tear-down.

As you identify, but don't seem to understand the importance of, the ECs cannot be torn down on a whim. They have to be defended or lost. This completely changes the calculus of using an player-owned structure. You now have an incentive to defend it or you will actually lose assets. Before, if someone declared war you could take everything down, either hop corp or wait a week, and set everything back up and your net worth would be identical. With ECs, if you try to the evade a war by hiding in a NPC station your net worth will be -1B ISK or whatever an exploded EC will cost you. That threat of loss is your motivation to fight to defend it now, or find/hire people to do that for you.

This is actual game play. There are choices now to be made with various risks and various rewards and with various vulnerability to disruption by the other players. This is unlike the current, broken system, where highsec industrial POSes do nothing but waste people's time with an unfun mechanic, generating little conflict and offering very little real choice as they are so powerful they are all but mandatory.

As to the defendability of POS vs EC, I think that depends on the attacker and space that you are in. Certainly the EC offers many advantages to the defender over a POS including an anti-blob DPS cap, the ability to control when the structure can be attacked, and an extra reinforcement window, and the fail-safe of asset safety. The POS had probably more fitting choices and could be fit to be more annoying, and had the advantage it would shoot things unattended. I think on the whole the EC is easier to defend for a group that is planning to defend it (and the POS was better for someone who was not intending to defend but just rely on weaponized boredom to deter attacks), but they will also cost several times what a POS did so it's a bit like comparing apples and oranges.

In any case there is no choice. POSes are leaving and ECs will soon be the only choice. I suggest if you have specific ideas or concerns over the ECs and how they relate to industry you make them clearly to CCP in this thread. Just offering up that you "don't like them" or "these things are worse than POSes" isn't especially constructive. In less than two-weeks these will be in the game so time is running out.

A POS was not completely undefended, you could switch from full indy to full ****/deathstar if needed, and use your ship (and your mates if you had) to help. ECs have the power of an average ship (haven't really checked their power, but looks pretty low), and you have to actually use it, so cannot use your ship.
And as I said, you DO risk something, because you decide to risk both your pos and the stuff inside to keep the production on.
I guess you would be surprised at how many industrialists never even touched their POSes during wardecs. Even less shut them down and remove them.
Now you have no choice, because your EC will always be there. You cannot choose, you are just a target.



Well, to be honest I value more 1 week of disrupted business rather than a lost EC...
Again, I don't see why you keep posting so much in a thread that has nothing to do with your playstyle (well, yeah, other than blowing up indy stuff, of course^^), and that you don't even know well... just keep saying that things will change anyway and will have to adapt to it is useless... we already know it.



ECs will give less choices to industrialists... will force them in a single playstyle and will make their game more static.
Plus risks won't change, or will even become less.
Plus I'm not so sure people will waste time with an unfun mechanic that generate little conflict and offer no choices at all, and even no real rewards (I'm talking about a pvp team shooting for xx time an harmelss structure more than once, with nobody defending, just to get a killmail, as the loot will be negligible.)
I guess at the beginning many groups will try to kill ECs as much as they can... then will become boring and they will stop it (look at POCOs... or even citadels...)



mhm? if you talk about small POSes yeah... but M ECs should be compared to L POSes, and the second in general was more expensive (not talking just about the stick...)



Already said that I made a post with my ideas and suggestions... if you just wanna look better than me with comments like this, welcome... :)

You right, CCp's has been trying and failing dismally for several years to make nulsec space something worth moving to.
The most exciting thing to happen in nulsec in years was the money badger coalition and even it got old after a week because every fleet was just blob blob blob. That sort of thing, due in part to EULA changes, is very unlikely to ever happen again.

So Devs in their infinite wisdom (I jest) decided to release a complete line of structures specifically designed for nulsec blob alliances, without taking into consideration how the game play involving these structures works (in not only nul but the major and by far more populated parts of TQ, highsec and lowsec).
It is a sad day when "designers" don't understand who they are developing for. It is worse when the "new" is far less functional per isk than what is currently available.

Thankfully we have a good while before pos's are removed.

As for the CSM, it should have been left to die a natural death about 3 years ago, when we had the last CSM worthy of the votes. Some outdated, redundant traditions CCP just can't let go of, others they are happy to ignore or just toss under the bed to be forgotten (right where the CSM should be).
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I can understand CCP wanting to create something new and interesting and pos code does have serious issues but why introduce a line of new structures, which so many have/had been looking forward to, that quite openly discriminate against every small group in the game?
Introducing new things into a game this old that are subpar to what has been the standard for many years, just smacks of poor design and no consideration for the player base. More so when, like most of CCP's work, players are left in the dark until it is too late for any decent feedback to be taken into account.

Not too long ago at a recent fanfest, CCP announced they would make efforts to improve communication between players and Devs - That little speech was valid for about 30 seconds longer than it took for Seagull to say it.

To honest, I don't think they have one beyond "everything in player hands, everything destructible". Sadly the Citadel/EC mechanics show this, they throw half-baked structures into the game, don't fix problem for 6 months, throw in another set of structures with same mechanics to serve a completely different purpose and let the players find out what they can be used for. Personally I expect more from game design, EvE being a sandbox is not an universal excuse.

And this is why these conversations always devolves down to talking past each other. For BP, CCP is developing a good ‘vision’ for the new structures, it’s just a ‘vision’ that aligns with his preferred play-style.

The problem of course is it doesn’t fit at all with the play-styles of small groups and solo players. Now many people here like BP and others don’t feel that that play-style is as legitimate as theirs. Whatever. But CCP has been endlessly telling everyone it is. And they’ve been selling the new structures as fitting in with that play-style too. That everyone can own a home and feel invested. Even though I find it rather telling that CCP never did (that I know of) any sort of round table discussion with small groups and solo players to address concerns of the new Citadels, Seagull has emphasized that in the videos (that was linked to constantly when this discussion happened over Citadels) that these are meant for small groups too. And they keep saying so on the forums. The problem of course is they aren’t really, because CCP is developing these with Null Sec groups in mind which happen to be larger in size. And I’m not necessarily saying they shouldn’t, BUT CCP needs to stop right now and rip this bandaid off and come clean that they are. They keep saying one thing, and releasing another while also saying ‘don’t worry, new structures will be out in the future to address your concerns’. Only now new structures are out and they still don’t address those concerns.

While these discussions that are going on here all seem to devolve down to ‘numbers per hour’ or Hi-sec versus Null sec, one of the often overlooked problems with the new structures (I think) compared to the old POS is that small groups (and I’m including ‘Solo’ in with “small groups”) could put one down and pretty much go unnoticed. You could hide them off scan from gates in many systems. You could bury them in the POS list of larger ones. Unless someone was purposefully checking a system for all the POSs you could slip by under the radar. Small groups had a structure they could fit to use as a base of operations for combat or manufacturing that had a bit of ’stealth’ to it and could defend itself to an extent. And in the small POS one that they could consider disposable. Now that the new structures are not only very expensive (related to small POSs) they all pop up in space for anyone jumping into system to see, CCP just hung a giant ‘kick me’ sign on all small groups that use these, and upped the ante to do so.

CCP made a mistake when they promised to cary all the functionality of the POSs over to the new system. When they killed the idea of the ‘Small’, mobile, cheap structure with auto defenses that can be ‘hidden’ to an extent, they broke that promise. Wether they did that on purpose or not doesn’t matter (I do not think they did!), but they need to come clean now and stop selling these as something small groups can use they way they did POSs. If by ‘small groups and solo people can partake in the new structures too’ from the intro video on these CCP really meant, ‘well you might be able to dock in someone else’s’ then they need to just say that! Will there be tears? Oh some Norse god yes, but it’s better to just do this now than let this charade keep going. Or if they actually do have some other plan for structures that address these concerns they need to say that now too (they fact that they are dragging their feet so much on getting back to us I think suggest they don't).

We are considering adding external visibility for supercap construction jobs in the future, but that feature is definitely not part of the November expansion. There is still more work that would need to be done to get that feature working and we have some higher priority items on our backlog at the moment.

Yes the drilling platforms are currently intended to be the bonus structure for reprocessing. Engineering Complexes will have the same reprocessing ability as Citadels.

The Market Service module will be installable on the Azbel (large) and Sotiyo (Xl) Engineering Complexes.

We have some plans in the works to replace some of the specific functions of the Thukker array. This replacement won't be in the first Ascension release, but it will be ready before we phase out the Thukker array at some point in the future.

Yes the Invention service module will enable T3 invention.

Reactions are not be changed at this time and will continue to be starbase-only. We'll communicate about them again well before we make any changes for them.

Yes.

No. As with the existing structure rigs, only one rig of any given type (T1 and T2 inclusive) can be fit to the same structure at the same time.

Freighters, Jump Freighters and Industrial Command ships will be built using the normal Manufacturing plant, and can be built in a Raitaru.

Engineering Complexes will appear in space in the same way that Citadels do.

We have no plans to introduce Small Engineering Complexes or Small Citadels at this time.

Yes.

I LOVE YOU CCP! the new Raitaru services are now 12 blocks every hour! with a further decrease of 25% on the engineering complexes! for around 27 blocks now. way better than it was att first! and the fact that all the engineering compelxes gets a flat 1% bonus to any manufacturing ME makes it a good choice to build anything in the new structures. while ofcourse being able to be specialised further :D

Altough i have to say.
Decreasing the vulnerability windows on only the azbel and sotiyo is a bit meh.
Shouldent the Raitaru get a bit of a decrease to? 3 times the vulnerability of the astrahus medium is prety insane...
Atleast decrease it to 6-7 hours or something.
Also its cpu and powergrid is trash. You get 3 high 2 med and 1 low. And you cant even use them all if you use all service slots so you can do all of your industry.
Its trash in the def department.

Are there anymore Citadel Service modules down the line that will provide Astrahus's with a bit more utility ?

I think there's now a rig for caps on Sisi? That's an addition Mr Foz forgot to note, if I'm correct.

Wormhole is the same as Null