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I'll build an open EC for the public with my alt, minor tax would cover the fuel needs, and if it becomes popular it would provide me more income than actual manufacturing. Or just building a public network for the tax income, my job would be only to fuel them. Many would do the same, to free themself of maintaining those EC's, but using them for their benefits.

Minor risk, high revard, there goes your idea about how stupid it would be to open EC's for public. I don't care high income, a small stream of constant ISK is enough for my playstyle. The more the better.

Mercenary business would be a thing again, to removing, defending those structures, more entertaining sandbox game.

People can do as they please, that's the nice things about a sandbox. Oh well, even not sandbox games are like that... if you don't care about optimizing your income and actually making isks out of your business (EC/indy in this case), it's up to you.
But honestly I don't understand what is your point...
"Real" industrialists put a lot of effort in the min/maxing, they decided to enter in this part of the game instead of another one because they enjoyed it. And honestly it's all about making isks from building/selling stuff. The more the better.

But I'm not even sure if you will actually do indy or not, in your own EC...

If not, I already said that most of the public ECs will be set up by people NOT doing indy themselves. Because attract more people = higher indexes = way less profit (that you won't recover with that minor tax).



1st of all. We all agree that POSes are bad, and we all want them to disappear. That's actually the first reason why industrialists are so "noisy" about this. We waited for years, using a buggy and annoying system, waiting for something better... just to get something that is not better in almost any way. Just maybe less buggy and a bit easier to be used.

So the overflowing refining citadels in HS what are actually bringing over the previous status, as (you said) they are rarely being attacked? a bit better refining for single noobs that before used NPC stations? Make it easier to mining in systems without stations? mhmm oh well... and most of them will slowly fade away or be turned off, because not worth the hassle of fueling them.
We all know that when something new arrives in a game, many people wanna try it, and in this case many people built citadels just because they were something new. They will still use them? sure... but you will see less and less public services around.
And people knew that during a wardec corps would remove the POSes, so what is the problem? they just didn't wardec because they wanted to kill a POS from the beginning. They did it for the chance of blowing ships, or getting ransoms, etc.

Why I cannot kill an inty with my dread? they always run away! I wanna kill them... if I can't because of game mechanics, have to be broken? I just kill that BS instead....

So yeah, they DO introduce new possibilities and remove some buggy mechanics from the game, BUT they introduce a lot of hassles, wastes of time, and narrow our possible choices (and then our fun). That's what we are complaining about.

And of course people will adapt... just don't see why we have to have a way worse playing experience than before, when it could be better.... and I already explained some of these points before...

All this "POS in Highsec is secure and invulnerable" stuff may be true in theory, but works only for industrialstuff < 24hrs. Which is not the usual way for production. So whenever a group of players declare a wardec on a corp with production POS'es, there is a good chance for running jobs > 24hrs. So the corp has to deside: Can I defend the pos? (and keep the jobs running), do the pos have enough def? or do I have to cancel all the jobs (and maybe lose billions of ISK) to save the POS?

You see, it's not black or white.. and you have to risk your stuff in highsec, if you want to build greater stuff in a POS (like ships).

Yes, I like the Idea that comes with EC's. Yes, I'm a fan of killing all the legacy code around POS. But I also appreciate the concerns from the industrialist side.

If that's true, then nothing is changing other than the defender gets more control over when they can be attacked, and more chances to win a battle that will save their structure.

But it is largely not true. The run times for the vast majority of items can be kept to a day or less - even building a battleship only takes a few hours. Aside from long research jobs, the majority of industry can be done in shortish chunks where only pocket change, if anything is at risk.

Further, I will assert that the ability to evade a war by pulling down a structure is a major part of what makes POSes almost completely safe in highsec simply by discouraging most attempts. The fact your opponent can opt-out of your structure bash removes almost all motivation for an aggressor to even try to explode one if they know the most likely outcome is the loss of 50M ISK and the target pulling down their stuff and storing it in an invulnerable station and redeploying it a week later.

It's silly to let industrialists benefit from an invulnerable structure. If they are going to be invulnerable, then let them be invulnerable without the hassle of all that pointless micromanaging. If they want to take a risk for more reward, then let's enable them to do that to.

I don't agree.

It is definitly possible to stick with run time < 24 hours. Yes
But there are incentive to run with more than 24 hours, because of the materials saved with longer jobs and better utilisation of production slots.
So most of us take the risks and go above 24h.
Tiberius zol is right when saying billons can be at stake upon wardec. Even for solo.
There is a real risk/reward with POS system.

ECs introduce an other type of risk/reward:
-being able to run safe 6 days jobs
-at the expense of more expensive destructible structure.

It's just a shift.

Maybe the definition of invulnerable here is a bit ...odd.

In your example...every ship is invulnerable by your definition. Because you can store your ship in a NPC station in case of a wardec or whatever.

But as you said. Wee will see what happens after the release..

Do you ever read what you have typed before hitting POST?

You should try it, you might not post false, misleading, incorrect, uninformed information so often.
And for pities sake, please stop posting about stuff you don't understand.. Serious Industrialists don't build one item at a time, even those building capitals and components have multiple jobs in at a time and they can take weeks.

Any pos can be attacked without Concord intervention, you just have to use game mechanics. I've been involved in blowing up many pos's in highsec. In the meta war, forcing someone to pull down their pos due to war, is a win - They lose isk for every day they are not producing, so yes the structure is invulnerable while not in space but the owners lose (usually much more than the pos is worth)

NB; The amount of ships "ganked" in highsec, is not as high as you might think.. Gankers for the most part aren't much more than a nuisance..

I'm not sure if English is a second language, hence you lack of understanding the simple statements I made or if your just seriously thick and can't see the grass for the trees

I suppose an individual would need to spend some time actually playing the game and using available mechanics, instead of spending all their time posting inaccurate drivel on the forums.

I'm sorry but your the only one arguing here and very badly at that. As I said PLEASE stop posting about things you simply don't understand. Oh and read what i wrote, then try responding to that and not with the same falsehoods you have been posting.

Not everyone thinks about "blowing something up" as a victory - The meta game in eve is far more complicated than you seem to understand.

On EC's - Two major issues with them. First is the amount of time required to defend them (no-one wants eve to be a second job, they have to pay to go to). Second, is the running costs. CCP is wrong in believing industrialists will "team up" and set up community EC's, therefore creating competition for themselves. There may or may not end up being public EC's at some time in the future but the costs to use them (charged by the owner/s) + npc costs will likely make them very rare and only moderately used - meaning cost to use them will be higher due to lack of paying customers.

EC's will be attacked and disabled or destroyed by the same groups who do so now. These are primarily griefer groups who's only aim is to disrupt the game play of others. This isn't going to change, at least not in empire space, as industrialists are not going to risk their own structures by wardeccing someone else's (that would just be stupidity). Sure they may hire mercs to do their dirty work but again, this cuts severely into profit margins, so unless the "competition" that owns the EC next door is a real threat to their income - They won't bother messing with it.

Your biggest problem here is, you have read the short story CCP made up and believe it without question. You don't actually know how industrialists play the game, you don't have an opinion of your own, you certainly don't understand the intricacies of highsec game play (aside possibly from your short lived efforts as a ganker, which in all this, doesn't count for squat)

Now this may seem to you to be insulting but all I am trying to convey is - Don't just blindly believe what CCP says, ask those who actually play as industrialists to get relevant information, talk to people who have pos's in highsec, etc (aside from my 2 lowsec pos's, I aslo have 2 in empire space and have over the years experienced very different game play to what you describe as "how it is") - Then you can formulate an informed opinion. Once you have a thought out informed opinion, post here with what you've found and if it in some way contradicts or is contradicted by what others are saying, you can then argue a point (an informed point). Right now you are trying to argue based on "this is how it is" without actually knowing "how it is"...

And do you really think that any medium-up industrialist would build those BS one by one?
and keep all their lines on one day base?
Out of curiosity, what kind of industry do you do, Pedro? And where?
I appreciate when people wanna discuss, but keeping posting like you know everything, and then saying stuff like that... I mean, I know how ganking works, the general mechanics and so on, so I can generally discuss about it, but I wouldn't keep arguing with gankers in a threat deeply connected with ganking only.



Ok, so let's put it this way:
- Indy is all about make stuff and sell stuff.
- A corp wardecs me.
- I can choose to:
1. risk my assets, keep the pos on, production on, and defend it if needed (and loose everything, if I loose)
2. don't risk them, take pos down, and don't get any profit for at least one week.

To me, it looks like I have a choice, and I get some good reward if I decide to risk.

With the new system:
- A corp wardecs me.
- My choices are:
1. get my stuff away immediately, don't get any profit and loose the structure
2. try to defend it, get some more time of production and loose the structure

To me, it looks like the choices are quite similar... just with the new system I cannot save the structure.
Unless I can defend it... but at the present status, in a POS I could have some chances, in an EC I have a lot less.
And with a POS, the risk/reward is bigger than with ECs.

Can the smallest engineering complex build a keepstar?