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MASS-PROTEST AGAINST EXPLORING THE CHARACTER BAZAAR & SKILL TRADING

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2015-10-20 09:32:51 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
2b probably is quite a bit extreme, but we don't know how extreme.
For all we know CCP may set the Aurum cost to the equivalent of 2 PLEX, or it may be 1/4 PLEX, considering 500k SP is about a week with +5s and remapped properly.
The logic here assumes double paying for the SP why? The player creating the SP already paid the sub for it in one form or another, thus there is no reason for the extractors to charge that same amount again.
ColdBeauty
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2015-10-20 11:10:57 UTC  |  Edited by: ColdBeauty
Vincent Athena wrote:
Some of this discussion seems to be based on a bit of confusion.
The skill extractor requires Aurum to obtain. You fill it with your skill points to turn it into a skill packet.
The skill packet would then be sold, for ISK, to another player.
The player that buys the skill packet only spends ISK. If you are good at EVE, and can make ISK, you can get all the skill points you want without spending any real money at all.

So is it really pay to win, when you do not need to pay any real money at all?


It is because you can (use RL money) not because you don't have to (that made sense when I typed it) Lol
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
#143 - 2015-10-20 13:21:04 UTC
I, for one, welcome our skill point selling overlords.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#144 - 2015-10-20 17:49:04 UTC
ColdBeauty wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Some of this discussion seems to be based on a bit of confusion.
The skill extractor requires Aurum to obtain. You fill it with your skill points to turn it into a skill packet.
The skill packet would then be sold, for ISK, to another player.
The player that buys the skill packet only spends ISK. If you are good at EVE, and can make ISK, you can get all the skill points you want without spending any real money at all.

So is it really pay to win, when you do not need to pay any real money at all?


It is because you can (use RL money) not because you don't have to (that made sense when I typed it) Lol


Is also the miner falsity that minerals are free. If a person wants to think that hours of play is worth investing in gaining an hour of training, then let em. Person who is a rich veteran wants to spend their trillion isk to gain a few skills they dont care about? Let them.

I have all the SP for skills that I care about. Anything else is kinda fluff. I suppose I can get a lvl 5 titan skill for my whole fortune....

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Anahl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#145 - 2015-10-22 19:56:19 UTC
Nope I actually quite like this idea of CCP's.

It makes sense, and will give your own character more identity. You can already buy characters, buying those SP is in no way different, just administered in a better way.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#146 - 2015-10-22 20:08:31 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
2b probably is quite a bit extreme, but we don't know how extreme.
For all we know CCP may set the Aurum cost to the equivalent of 2 PLEX, or it may be 1/4 PLEX, considering 500k SP is about a week with +5s and remapped properly.
The logic here assumes double paying for the SP why? The player creating the SP already paid the sub for it in one form or another, thus there is no reason for the extractors to charge that same amount again.
Exactly.

Something around 10% of 1/4 PLEX, so 1/40 PLEX or 30M ISK (at current PLEX prices) would make more sense.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#147 - 2015-10-22 20:24:59 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
2b probably is quite a bit extreme, but we don't know how extreme.
For all we know CCP may set the Aurum cost to the equivalent of 2 PLEX, or it may be 1/4 PLEX, considering 500k SP is about a week with +5s and remapped properly.
The logic here assumes double paying for the SP why? The player creating the SP already paid the sub for it in one form or another, thus there is no reason for the extractors to charge that same amount again.
Exactly.

Something around 10% of 1/4 PLEX, so 1/40 PLEX or 30M ISK (at current PLEX prices) would make more sense.


No... It would probably be about 1/4 PLEX is Aurum costs based on 500k SP being approx 1 week worth of SP.
You may also be able to determine that this is the relative value of time invested, so the would cost approx. 1/2 a PLEX.

Which means TONS of people are going to be buying up as much SP as they can.
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#148 - 2015-10-22 20:32:56 UTC
BECAUSE OF SKILLPOINTS

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#149 - 2015-10-22 20:39:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Joe Risalo wrote:
No... It would probably be about 1/4 PLEX is Aurum costs based on 500k SP being approx 1 week worth of SP.
You may also be able to determine that this is the relative value of time invested, so the would cost approx. 1/2 a PLEX.

Which means TONS of people are going to be buying up as much SP as they can.
Again you are missing the point, the AUR cost of the extractor has no reason whatsoever to reflect the cost of the SP since that cost is paid by the sub that generated the SP.

The point of the AUR cost is to replicate the transfer fee of the Bazaar in a more granular fashion. Considering the effective flat price of 7000 AUR (2 PLEX) transfers any amount of SP, up to several tens or even over a hundred million, 875 for 500k is ridiculous as a transfer fee, which is what the extractor cost is, the transfer cost, not the SP cost.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#150 - 2015-10-22 23:16:40 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Again you are missing the point, the AUR cost of the extractor has no reason whatsoever to reflect the cost of the SP since that cost is paid by the sub that generated the SP.

The point of the AUR cost is to replicate the transfer fee of the Bazaar in a more granular fashion. Considering the effective flat price of 7000 AUR (2 PLEX) transfers any amount of SP, up to several tens or even over a hundred million, 875 for 500k is ridiculous as a transfer fee, which is what the extractor cost is, the transfer cost, not the SP cost.


I feel that YOU are missing the point.
What you're stating is not how the market works.

the isk to plex to Aurum ratio is very much going to reflect in the cost of the SP packet.

It's just like ship production.
The cost of materials is reflected in the sales price of the ship, as the cost is absorbed by the consumer.
HOWEVER, in the case of ship production, the producer can attain the materials (via mining and whatever means) in order to reduce sales price. Thus allowing them to be more competitive.

If we assume that the extractor is going to cost 1/4 the Aurum you attain from a PLEX, then charging anything less than 1/4 the cost of a PLEX in isk value, is selling at a loss.

You must then also determine the relative isk value of 500k SP in relation to training time vs PLEX cost.
We'll assume that 500k SP with +5 implants and full remap for sold skills is worth 1/4 a PLEX as well.

This would mean you can easily determine what the sale value of the skill packet should be at MINIMUM.
Now, there will likely be people that undercut that number and will basically say that their time spent is worth less.

Even if half the cost of a PLEX is undercut (this assuming my example is correct), then you DEFINITELY would not undercut the relative is value of the Aurum needed for the extractor.

The ACTUAL value of these SP packets will be very easy to determine based on what CCP sets as the SP amount (for now it's 500k) and the amount of AURUM CCP plans to charge.
Whether the players charge more or less than that value is entirely up to them, but there is a bare minimum you can charge before you actually lose isk and say your time spent is worth nothing.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#151 - 2015-10-22 23:30:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Joe Risalo wrote:
I feel that YOU are missing the point.
What you're stating is not how the market works.
No, I'm not missing anything. This started from the assertion you made that the AUR cost of an extractor could be 1/4th of a PLEX because that's how long it takes to get the SP. Under a proposal of buying SP at a set cost from CCP that makes sense, but that isn't what was proposed.

Yes, the fact that it takes a week to get the SP will help push the market price of a packet towards 1/4th a PLEX in isk value (+extractor cost), but that in no way suggests the extractor cost needs to match that or even should.

Joe Risalo wrote:
the isk to plex to Aurum ratio is very much going to reflect in the cost of the SP packet.
No one is disputing this, what was disputed was your math that assumed the extractor would initially cost close to 2 PLEX (judged by your 2B/packet number) then the follow up suggestion that the extractor could likely cost the same as the time training the SP converted from PLEX to isk.

If you meant "packet" and not "extractor" when your suggested the price that's another story, but as stated there is no reason for the extractor, the part sold by CCP to allow removal of SP from a character, to have a cost that mimics the cost of the SP produced. Especially when the cost to transfer SP currently has no set AUR or PLEX:SP ratio.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#152 - 2015-10-23 00:04:43 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
No one is disputing this, what was disputed was your math that assumed the extractor would initially cost close to 2 PLEX (judged by your 2B/packet number) then the follow up suggestion that the extractor could likely cost the same as the time training the SP converted from PLEX to isk.

If you meant "packet" and not "extractor" when your suggested the price that's another story, but as stated there is no reason for the extractor, the part sold by CCP to allow removal of SP from a character, to have a cost that mimics the cost of the SP produced. Especially when the cost to transfer SP currently has no set AUR or PLEX:SP ratio.


Ok.. This is our bad... We were misunderstanding each other.
I had already determined that I was wrong on my initial 2 bil estimate.
That estimate was based off the assumption that the cost of the extractor would be the full PLEX value, 500 in SP, and up to 500 mil of the player making isk.

Having said that, we don't yet know the Aurum cost, so it could very well be the full price of a PLEX.

To be perfectly honest, if Aurum value is less than half a PLEX, than it's going to be WAY too easy for players to buy these and MANY MANY people would likely boost up to 80 mil, if not further.

This is kind of the problem I'm having with the whole system. There is no amount of SP and Aurum ratio that is a butter zone.
It seems like it's either going to be too easy for new toons, or too costly for vet toons.

IF CCP were to remove the diminishing returns, I feel it would be easier to find a butter zone, and also more fair for those of us that only have one toon and have spent years training that toon, only to find they will be punished on that toon for training so long.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#153 - 2015-10-23 00:23:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Joe Risalo wrote:
Ok.. This is our bad... We were misunderstanding each other.
I had already determined that I was wrong on my initial 2 bil estimate.
That estimate was based off the assumption that the cost of the extractor would be the full PLEX value, 500 in SP, and up to 500 mil of the player making isk.

Having said that, we don't yet know the Aurum cost, so it could very well be the full price of a PLEX.

To be perfectly honest, if Aurum value is less than half a PLEX, than it's going to be WAY too easy for players to buy these and MANY MANY people would likely boost up to 80 mil, if not further.

This is kind of the problem I'm having with the whole system. There is no amount of SP and Aurum ratio that is a butter zone.
It seems like it's either going to be too easy for new toons, or too costly for vet toons.

IF CCP were to remove the diminishing returns, I feel it would be easier to find a butter zone, and also more fair for those of us that only have one toon and have spent years training that toon, only to find they will be punished on that toon for training so long.
Something in the realm of 900mill/500k SP (assuming half a plex per extractor) does not make a trivial trip to any amount of SP. How many people do you think can, much less will drop 245B/char to get to 80m SP (with diminishing returns accounted for)?

Really the only issue is that the scaling is too low IMHO, especially the 5-50m range, which accounts for a really large range of potential effect. Account for that and trivial cost for extractors is a non issue, especially if market forces do try to consume the the SP packets in large quantities, raising the market value of the time to compensate.

It's scaling that prevents easy creation of high SP characters, which does more to preserve the value of existing high SP characters, while still leaving the system open at lower levels. If we're just going to gate this at billions for any real effect we may as well not do it as it leaves all the negatives (rich players power leveling, "cash grabs," few/no options for new players without substantial RL currency investment) and none of the positives.

Scaling is only a punishment if you feel waiting is somehow worse than spending hundreds of billions of isk (at a 0 extractor cost with current scaling and PLEX equivalent market pricing this character would cost over 260B to replicate @ 110m SP).
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#154 - 2015-10-23 00:41:29 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
If we're just going to gate this at billions for any real effect we may as well not do it as it leaves all the negatives (rich players power leveling, "cash grabs," few/no options for new players without substantial RL currency investment) and none of the positives.


This is the problem at any level of SP purchase.
This system HEAVILY favors vets with large isk wallets and those with high real world personal wealth.

If we assume the base rate of an SP packet is as low as 500mil, most new players (not new toons, but specifically new players) will not accrue that amount of isk in their first year of play.

So the ONLY option for a newbro is to either know someone in game with wealth, join an alliance with wealth that provides skill packets, or spend real world cash in order to purchase the packets by selling PLEX.

No matter how you look at it, this IS a "cash grab" as the system relies specifically on PLEX, which can only be introduced into the game through real cash purchase.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#155 - 2015-10-23 00:45:07 UTC
One thing I would like to see though.

If you extract SP from your too and apply that SP back to that same toon, I don't feel it should suffer diminishing returns.
If we're already going to buying SP, we might as well allow players to purchase a SP remaps without SP loss.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#156 - 2015-10-23 00:51:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Joe Risalo wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
If we're just going to gate this at billions for any real effect we may as well not do it as it leaves all the negatives (rich players power leveling, "cash grabs," few/no options for new players without substantial RL currency investment) and none of the positives.


This is the problem at any level of SP purchase.
This system HEAVILY favors vets with large isk wallets and those with high real world personal wealth.

If we assume the base rate of an SP packet is as low as 500mil, most new players (not new toons, but specifically new players) will not accrue that amount of isk in their first year of play.

So the ONLY option for a newbro is to either know someone in game with wealth, join an alliance with wealth that provides skill packets, or spend real world cash in order to purchase the packets by selling PLEX.

No matter how you look at it, this IS a "cash grab" as the system relies specifically on PLEX, which can only be introduced into the game through real cash purchase.
Cost only on a per packet basis it will always favor the larger wallet, on the actual effect it will benefit whoever it's engineered to benefit, which is clearly those at lower SP. Yes, alts create the possibility of having both, but at a point alts cease to be of great use and developing new ones just wasteful unless continually expanding accounts per player.

If the in cost for new players is an issue the option to further reduce the packet size to something more affordable exists.

Edit: Say we do 100k packets @ 50AUR, with PLEX at about 1.2B we end up with estimated 80m packets.

Then scale a bit more agressively:

up to 5m = 100k/packet
up to 25m = 80k/packet
up to 50m = 50k/packet
up to 75m = 25k/packet
over 75m = 10k/packet

Now it costs 339B to make a 100m character while small hits of SP are far more accessible.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#157 - 2015-10-23 03:05:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

If the in cost for new players is an issue the option to further reduce the packet size to something more affordable exists.

Edit: Say we do 100k packets @ 50AUR, with PLEX at about 1.2B we end up with estimated 80m packets.

Then scale a bit more agressively:

up to 5m = 100k/packet
up to 25m = 80k/packet
up to 50m = 50k/packet
up to 75m = 25k/packet
over 75m = 10k/packet

Now it costs 339B to make a 100m character while small hits of SP are far more accessible.


The one major benefit I see coming out of this system is that alliances will likely provide newbros with SP packets.
HOWEVER, that also has a downside in that those alliances will force newbros into niche roles and then likely won't help this SP into solo and/or more enjoyable activities.
Also, CCP has been trying to push Eve into a role of more, smaller entities, as opposed to making large entities larger.
This system has the negative outcome of counteracting their attempts to reduce entity sizes.

Only time will tell, I suppose.
Space Frog
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#158 - 2015-10-23 09:27:24 UTC
stfu you pedo-peddling smut lord!
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#159 - 2015-10-23 13:04:09 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
One thing I would like to see though.

If you extract SP from your too and apply that SP back to that same toon, I don't feel it should suffer diminishing returns.
If we're already going to buying SP, we might as well allow players to purchase a SP remaps without SP loss.

This has come up 100s of times. Choosing to train something is a relevant decision. It should remain so. That means "remapping skills" should always come at some cost. Not just an isk one either. A sp one.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#160 - 2015-10-23 20:01:14 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
One thing I would like to see though.

If you extract SP from your too and apply that SP back to that same toon, I don't feel it should suffer diminishing returns.
If we're already going to buying SP, we might as well allow players to purchase a SP remaps without SP loss.

This has come up 100s of times. Choosing to train something is a relevant decision. It should remain so. That means "remapping skills" should always come at some cost. Not just an isk one either. A sp one.


It has come up several times.
Though, so has selling SP and now that's happening.


Look, vet toons will suffer diminishing returns on the SP packets.
The least that can happen is allowing them to remap small amounts of SP at a time without losing any.