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MASS-PROTEST AGAINST EXPLORING THE CHARACTER BAZAAR & SKILL TRADING

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Ursula Thrace
Dreamland Augmented Consortium
#121 - 2015-10-19 22:05:23 UTC
Hello CCP. Remember Incarna? Well, heads up - this is one of those times. Roll

See the rest of you in Amarr on the 24th.

eve online original intro
Robert Warner
Back Door Burglars
#122 - 2015-10-19 22:31:20 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
I wonder how long it will take for someone with real world personal wealth to amass a ton of these and max out every skill in Eve over night.

Don't think it will happen?

I know a person that has spent over 5 thousand dollars on one of those MMO RTS cell phone games...
And he is the weakest guy in his alliance (or whatever they call them)...
Imagine how much money their best guy has spent?

How much SP would you have if you maxed out every skill in the game?
Presumably just under 500 mil SP, correct?

So 500k for 0-5 mil = 10 of these.
400k for 5 - 50 mil = 112.5
200k for 50 - 80 mil = 150
50k for 80 - 500 mil = 8400
Total = 8672.5

If we assume that skill packets cost 2 bil on the market, then they're essentially worth $40 USD. (estimate obviously)
This means.
$400 USD = 5 mil SP
$4,900 = 50 mil SP (from 0-50mil)
$10,900 = 80 mil SP
$346,900 = All the SP in the game

Don't be surprised if someone spends that much in a year, if not over night.

Not only that, but they you have CCP saying "Hell yeah, people are spending their life savings on Pay 2 Earn. Lets start introducing more way we can make cash without actually providing any new content to the players or meaningful content to draw in new players."

Edit..
Oh, and even if you don't find a single person dumb enough to spend 347k on the game, you will definitely find thousands of people dumb enough to spend 11k on the game.

Edit 2..
These prices are assuming this new system doesn't drive plex prices up to 2 bil on their own.
Can't imagine how much the skill packets would cost then.


Listen to yourself! You actually believe someone is going to spend $400,000 on EVE just to say they have all the skills?
They say a fool and his gold are soon parted. Anyone with that level of disposable income will have better things to do than sink it into EVE.

Pull yourself together, man!
Lelira Cirim
Doomheim
#123 - 2015-10-19 23:06:28 UTC
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:

RIOT! (GAMES)

ZOOT SUIT (OPTIONAL)

Do not actively tank my patience.
Dabby Holder
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#124 - 2015-10-19 23:09:53 UTC
The only reason I came here is the skullduggery and the backstabbing (socail) aspects of the game. THis is a social game. Not sure if SP gets in the way of this or not, but maybe it would make it easier to dfg into the side of eve?
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
#125 - 2015-10-19 23:36:48 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
I have a few problems with this mechanic.

1) Lets punish vets for having spent years training SP by not allowing them to buy SP at the same rate as everyone else.

2) Lets make the cost of SP subject to change by putting the players in control.

3) A system in which personally wealthy people have more benefit than others is not a good design.

4) Eve is officially P2W.

5) This is not going to benefit "new" players, but instead is going to benefit vets creating new characters to use them for dedicated tasks.


which is it? 1 or 5

and eve has always been P2W - at least unofficially - those who wanted to, have always buy up characters and give themself an 'unfair' advantage

the problem is that by doing so they are at a structural disadvantage because they have not played their way into networks or positions of advantage - all they have ever done is buy the right to fly flashy ships that get looted and slavaged

the real issue here is not the buying of SP - but the expense of dual training
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
#126 - 2015-10-20 00:01:49 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

I know a person that has spent over 5 thousand dollars on one of those MMO RTS cell phone games...
And he is the weakest guy in his alliance (or whatever they call them)...
Imagine how much money their best guy has spent?

Edit..
Oh, and even if you don't find a single person dumb enough to spend 347k on the game, you will definitely find thousands of people dumb enough to spend 11k on the game..


I don't see the issue - or indeed the link

not least because in eve if the bloke who has spent 11k gives me grief - I can either not pay 8 quid a month (or whatever) and go and do something else - or fly off the other end of the universe and do something else

all that has changed is that now you can spend 11k to achieve what someone has had 11k hours (or whatever) of fun to accumulate - but without the fun -great
Sam Knob
They Ruin The Game
SHADOW UNIT
#127 - 2015-10-20 01:23:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Sam Knob
Assuming the maximum amount of SP/hour is 2700 we can calculate the price of a skill point package (that will give us a better base of discussion).

Skill Package price = SPP
Skill Package Content (the number of SP required to make a skill package) = SPC [500'000]
Max SP/hour = SPH [2700]
Average hours per month = Hpm [730]
Skill Extractor price = SEP
PLEX price = PLP [1.2b]


SPP = (PLP / ((SPH* Hpm) / SPC)) + SEP
SPP = 304'414'003.04 + SEP (~5$ if SEP is marginal)

The number above is the highest price possible, it cannot be higher (for the mentioned PLP). If it would, then all players would create any amount of characters they are comfortable with, boost them to 5m SP and start farming any amount of ISK and SP for free.

Independent of PLP we can assume that one skill package will cost around 5$ if SEP is marginal.

Quite honestly if CCP is not going to make the skill extractor ridiculously expensive then I am quite comfortable paying that amount for a skill point package.

Edit: The dollar price is actually lower since a PLEX costs more than an actual month of EVE (currently at around 11 - 15$ / month) -> 2.80$ per skill point package
Sam Knob
They Ruin The Game
SHADOW UNIT
#128 - 2015-10-20 01:39:42 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
So 500k for 0-5 mil = 10 of these.
400k for 5 - 50 mil = 112.5
200k for 50 - 80 mil = 150
50k for 80 - 500 mil = 8400
Total = 8672.5

If we assume that skill packets cost 2 bil on the market, then they're essentially worth $40 USD. (estimate obviously)
This means.
$400 USD = 5 mil SP
$4,900 = 50 mil SP (from 0-50mil)
$10,900 = 80 mil SP
$346,900 = All the SP in the game


Considering my calculations above let me correct these:
$28 USD = 5 mil SP
$341 = 50 mil SP (from 0-50mil)
$761 = 80 mil SP
$24'283 = All the SP in the game
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#129 - 2015-10-20 01:48:58 UTC
Dabby Holder wrote:
The only reason I came here is the skullduggery and the backstabbing (socail) aspects of the game. THis is a social game. Not sure if SP gets in the way of this or not, but maybe it would make it easier to dfg into the side of eve?


Same here. SP doesnt affect the social aspect. What it does is get people into positions they cannot handle. Short term players might play longer, but since is not magic SP, I do not imagine it being some massive influx. Farming SP clones is no different than bodyfarm accounts for character bazaar. Problem is that now the account holder has a sub AND the aur. Cost to itemize the SP. Dollar for dollar, is better for em to just character xfer.

In end, will just be a one attribute maxed character will make them. Some newbs will buy it, and will be rare those that spend the coin to match a longer term player. Those that do, well same person. Worst case is a player who is good that can be part of a more hardcore community early. They though would probably want to earn with the coining to just bling that one long term skill or ship setup they really want.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#130 - 2015-10-20 03:24:19 UTC
Sam Knob wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
So 500k for 0-5 mil = 10 of these.
400k for 5 - 50 mil = 112.5
200k for 50 - 80 mil = 150
50k for 80 - 500 mil = 8400
Total = 8672.5

If we assume that skill packets cost 2 bil on the market, then they're essentially worth $40 USD. (estimate obviously)
This means.
$400 USD = 5 mil SP
$4,900 = 50 mil SP (from 0-50mil)
$10,900 = 80 mil SP
$346,900 = All the SP in the game


Considering my calculations above let me correct these:
$28 USD = 5 mil SP
$341 = 50 mil SP (from 0-50mil)
$761 = 80 mil SP
$24'283 = All the SP in the game



If these numbers are correct, than you can certainly assume that someone would max SP as soon as there's enough skill packets on the market.

Much like PLEX though, they'll probably start low and work their way up.
The market is going to be flooded with these by people that are just selling off their unused skills, as well as those auction characters getting wiped down to 5 mil SP.

I may be a bit excessive on my pricing, but I think we can both agree you're quite a bit too lenient on your pricing.

It's going to cost at least 100k to fully SP a character from 0 to 500 mil, or whatever max SP is.

Again, there are people in other P2W MMOs that have spent well over this amount of money.
I think it's fair to assume that many people will SP new toons up to 50 mil, and there will be a select few that will max SP.

I personally will likely use this system to a certain extent in order to get recons, neuts, jams, Amarr BS and some other choice skills to max.

I mean, I may not agree with the system and I may feel it's unfair to those of us that have spent years training SP only to find out a new character can hit 50mil day one, but you'd still be an idiot not to use this system to it's full advantage and top off those choice skills.

Side note - I do realize that starting a new toon on an alt account and pegging it out to 50mil SP is something that I can do as well. HOWEVER, this again favors those that have personal wealth in RL. I'm not poor but I don't have the time nor the money to spend. I don't even want to spend the money to run a second account and don't play enough to build 1bil isk a month. Though, if I do get more than 1bil isk per month, I would rather not spend it just trying to keep a second account going, as it defeats the purpose of having a second account.

So, let me adjust my original statement.
This is more beneficial to vets creating new toons than it is for newbros, and it favors those with personal wealth while leaving the rest of us to slow boat our way on SP that we always have.
This does not factor those that are capable of attaining massive in-game wealth. You had the ability and the means, all attained in-game, so you can do whatever the hell you want with your isk.
Though, I do see an alliance showing up one day to an empty wallet, only to find that some player used it to max SP their toon.
Something like this will definitely happen, and I'm pretty sure there's going to be some rage and rioting over this, as SP cannot be taken back, even if they were able to figure out which character all that isk went to.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2015-10-20 04:04:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Sam Knob wrote:
Assuming the maximum amount of SP/hour is 2700 we can calculate the price of a skill point package (that will give us a better base of discussion).

Skill Package price = SPP
Skill Package Content (the number of SP required to make a skill package) = SPC [500'000]
Max SP/hour = SPH [2700]
Average hours per month = Hpm [730]
Skill Extractor price = SEP
PLEX price = PLP [1.2b]


SPP = (PLP / ((SPH* Hpm) / SPC)) + SEP
SPP = 304'414'003.04 + SEP (~5$ if SEP is marginal)

The number above is the highest price possible, it cannot be higher (for the mentioned PLP). If it would, then all players would create any amount of characters they are comfortable with, boost them to 5m SP and start farming any amount of ISK and SP for free.

Independent of PLP we can assume that one skill package will cost around 5$ if SEP is marginal.

Quite honestly if CCP is not going to make the skill extractor ridiculously expensive then I am quite comfortable paying that amount for a skill point package.

Edit: The dollar price is actually lower since a PLEX costs more than an actual month of EVE (currently at around 11 - 15$ / month) -> 2.80$ per skill point package
Only issue I have with the math is that plex doesn't cover the average month, but 30days regardless of month length making it so that, for comparison to plex price, Hpm should probably be 720 rather than 730.

@ Joe:
The continued existence of the Character Bazaar makes 2B/500k SP pretty absurd. That's going to have to be dialed back to compete with character sales to be even remotely functional.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#132 - 2015-10-20 04:36:48 UTC
Some of this discussion seems to be based on a bit of confusion.
The skill extractor requires Aurum to obtain. You fill it with your skill points to turn it into a skill packet.
The skill packet would then be sold, for ISK, to another player.
The player that buys the skill packet only spends ISK. If you are good at EVE, and can make ISK, you can get all the skill points you want without spending any real money at all.

So is it really pay to win, when you do not need to pay any real money at all?

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2015-10-20 04:41:51 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Some of this discussion seems to be based on a bit of confusion.
The skill extractor requires Aurum to obtain. You fill it with your skill points to turn it into a skill packet.
The skill packet would then be sold, for ISK, to another player.
The player that buys the skill packet only spends ISK. If you are good at EVE, and can make ISK, you can get all the skill points you want without spending any real money at all.

So is it really pay to win, when you do not need to pay any real money at all?

The claim we've seen most often in the official feedback thread has generally been that the price of these will incentivize PLEX sales to sell for the purpose of generating the needed isk. They then add to that that the extractors will have a cost in AUR as well, and from these aspects call it a "cash grab" by CCP.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#134 - 2015-10-20 05:28:11 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Sam Knob wrote:
Assuming the maximum amount of SP/hour is 2700 we can calculate the price of a skill point package (that will give us a better base of discussion).

Skill Package price = SPP
Skill Package Content (the number of SP required to make a skill package) = SPC [500'000]
Max SP/hour = SPH [2700]
Average hours per month = Hpm [730]
Skill Extractor price = SEP
PLEX price = PLP [1.2b]


SPP = (PLP / ((SPH* Hpm) / SPC)) + SEP
SPP = 304'414'003.04 + SEP (~5$ if SEP is marginal)

The number above is the highest price possible, it cannot be higher (for the mentioned PLP). If it would, then all players would create any amount of characters they are comfortable with, boost them to 5m SP and start farming any amount of ISK and SP for free.

Independent of PLP we can assume that one skill package will cost around 5$ if SEP is marginal.

Quite honestly if CCP is not going to make the skill extractor ridiculously expensive then I am quite comfortable paying that amount for a skill point package.

Edit: The dollar price is actually lower since a PLEX costs more than an actual month of EVE (currently at around 11 - 15$ / month) -> 2.80$ per skill point package
Only issue I have with the math is that plex doesn't cover the average month, but 30days regardless of month length making it so that, for comparison to plex price, Hpm should probably be 720 rather than 730.

@ Joe:
The continued existence of the Character Bazaar makes 2B/500k SP pretty absurd. That's going to have to be dialed back to compete with character sales to be even remotely functional.


2b probably is quite a bit extreme, but we don't know how extreme.
For all we know CCP may set the Aurum cost to the equivalent of 2 PLEX, or it may be 1/4 PLEX, considering 500k SP is about a week with +5s and remapped properly.

Either way, I'm not a fan of the diminishing returns for vet characters. Sure, they don't need the SP as badly, but they have also earned every bit they have, the hard way.
Not to mention, those vets won't even be able to flip their own skills without losing SP.
That's probably fair to some extent, but then you have a character with less than 50 mil SP that can flip skills and get double the returns.

I mean, there's just so many reasons I don't like this system, even if it's something I could benefit from.
Hell, since everyone seems to agree with the buying, selling, removal, and installation of SP that so many have been adamant were bad ideas over the years, let's just start going through the lists of other ideas that players didn't agree with.
Mini-carriers and dreads, SP/h buffed by active gameplay, like 5's back in HS, no pvp in HS without consent, players being able to set their character as non-pvp so they can go do stuff outside of HS without being popped, etc etc.

Not to mention, I'm pretty sure part or all of this is listed somewhere in the 191 pages of bad ideas; And those comments probably have likes.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#135 - 2015-10-20 06:08:04 UTC
The real issue will be the cost of the skill extractor as ISK is relatively easy to obtain and a skill optimized character can generate 24 mill SP a year more or less.

People with bulk ISK on hand will be able to create new characters which (with a maximised profile and relevant implants) after just 9 or 10 weeks, taking into account the SP bonus granted to new characters, can start churning out two mill disposable SP a month . That is roughly 2.5 plex per character to get them to SP trading status and then a PLEX a month to generate two million SP per month to freely move to other characters.

If you work it well the SP creating alt should be able to generate the ISK to PLEX itself so the only cost will be 4 skill extractors a month.

If the skill extractors are also available for ISK it should be feasible to get a stable of SP characters who generate their own ISK for plex and extractors providing free SP for the owners main.

None of this is possible for new players of course.
Sam Knob
They Ruin The Game
SHADOW UNIT
#136 - 2015-10-20 07:49:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Sam Knob
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Only issue I have with the math is that plex doesn't cover the average month, but 30days regardless of month length making it so that, for comparison to plex price, Hpm should probably be 720 rather than 730.

@ Joe:
The continued existence of the Character Bazaar makes 2B/500k SP pretty absurd. That's going to have to be dialed back to compete with character sales to be even remotely functional.


If I am not mistaken this does not matter since 11$ gets you one month of play and not only 30 days, so it's safe to consider average hours per month.

Joe Risalo wrote:
Much like PLEX though, they'll probably start low and work their way up.
The market is going to be flooded with these by people that are just selling off their unused skills, as well as those auction characters getting wiped down to 5 mil SP.

I may be a bit excessive on my pricing, but I think we can both agree you're quite a bit too lenient on your pricing.

It's going to cost at least 100k to fully SP a character from 0 to 500 mil, or whatever max SP is.


The good thing about my calculations is that they are correct regardless of the PLEX price. If CCP does not want that to be the case, they will have to:


  • make the extractor cost hundreds of millions of ISK (at which point the last white knight will be shouting "CASHGRAB")
  • augment the number of SP it costs to generate a skill package (say you will need 4m SP in order to generate a skill point package)
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#137 - 2015-10-20 08:13:09 UTC
who really cares, people who have enough money to spend 100k on games already buy high sp characters and titans and whatever else and die just as fast.

More development money for ccp...

If it means more content provided to nullsec etc then its not a bad thing so stop being spoiled brats and get over yourselves

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Zsha
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#138 - 2015-10-20 08:26:08 UTC
Freelancer117 wrote:
Time for another MASS-PROTEST, after Incarna greed is good debalce, CCP Games still has not learned the lesson X

source: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=536826276


Cya you in Amarr, on the Amarr VIII (Oris) - Emperor Family Academy station undock, shooting the monument !

Regards, a Freelancer


PS: Time to make stand against this Bullshit all over again, like we did in 2011 and made the Company change policy.
https://ardentdefense.wordpress.com/2011/06/24/eve-jita-mass-protest/

CCP Seagull wrote:

Quote:
#51 - 2014-05-12 17:11:55 UTC
Freelancer117 wrote:


May I remind CCPgames about this dev blog:

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/accord-reached-at-ccps-special-summit/

"We have expressed our deep concern about potential grey areas that the introduction of virtual goods permits, and CCP has made a commitment to discuss any proposals that might fall into these grey areas in detail with CSM at the earliest possible stage."

Hope that awareness has not dissipated over the years.

Regards, a Freelancer



Nothing has changed in our approach since that blog - the same principles still apply, and we will still discuss all new plans with the CSM.


source: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4583354#post4583354


Shut it you ******* baffoon
atif09
Ltd Angel
#139 - 2015-10-20 08:40:02 UTC
see you at the event.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2015-10-20 09:23:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Sam Knob wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Only issue I have with the math is that plex doesn't cover the average month, but 30days regardless of month length making it so that, for comparison to plex price, Hpm should probably be 720 rather than 730.

@ Joe:
The continued existence of the Character Bazaar makes 2B/500k SP pretty absurd. That's going to have to be dialed back to compete with character sales to be even remotely functional.


If I am not mistaken this does not matter since 11$ gets you one month of play and not only 30 days, so it's safe to consider average hours per month.
A 1 month sub is 30 days, not the length of the current calendar month, regardless of payment method. Thus the average calendar month should not be used.