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Jump Fatigue Feedback

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#281 - 2015-08-16 07:00:19 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Equto wrote:
hell it took a week with "instant" travel as you call it.

You are either lying, over-exaggerating, or are completely ignorant. These numbers you keep ripping out of your bum have a striking resemblance to what normally comes out of there.

And it doesn't start with what I what I quoted, however it does make it pretty plain to see now.


Indeed, let's look at the facts:

Capital ships used to shoot stuff: all time high
Capital ships being shot at and destroyed: all time high
Percentage of map covered by 2 great coalitions unwilling to fight each other: 7 year low
Percentage of map occupied by small-to-medium sized groups either willing to or already fighting each other: 7 year high
Percentage of map effectively empty which can therefore be claimed by ambitious and enthusiastic homesteaders: probably at a 10 year high, maybe longer.

We sure do need a rework of the resources and income generation ability of sov space, because it's not clear why farming anoms is better than farming SoE LP in hi-sec - few are disputing that - but yeah, apart from that the verifiable facts don't match up to the hurte buttes.

Deploying simply isn't as "impossible" as these lazy little fibbers make it out to be. It just takes some actual work other than 'get some dude to lay the cyno chain and then logging in a few titans, OK that's it we're ready.'

"*A bloo bloo*, we have to spend an hour looking for a suitable wormhole to take us most of the way and then cover the rest of the distance in gates like *shudder* poors, *a bloot bloot sniffle* how terribly CCP are oppressing us why won't somebody help us go back to the old days, oh great they did WAIT JESUS CHRIST THAT SURE IS A LOT OF GOONS IN TITANS WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO NOW????"

I swear to god, these people have the memory of goldfish.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#282 - 2015-08-16 09:10:53 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Malcanis wrote:

"*A bloo bloo*, we have to spend an hour looking for a suitable wormhole to take us most of the way and then cover the rest of the distance in gates like *shudder* poors


To be fair, remember CCP nerfed the arse off null holes because they (*cough* SORT *cough cough*) cried like a little baby about the big bad wormhole people and PL shitting their day up.

You remember, shitting up someones day being the very cornerstone of Eve. Unless you're having a null battle, in which case it's queensberry rules and no fun allowed Roll
Nienna Leralonde
FunkSters
#283 - 2015-08-16 11:03:56 UTC
start with the scram change and etc from 2009 if i`m not mistaken,and work your way down to the lastest expansion,and will you will find everything thats wrong with eve.not just fck fatigue.
Kai55a
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#284 - 2015-08-16 14:45:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Kai55a
Wake up! Fatigue helped to limit power projection because sov game mechanics required capitals. But this has been changed! Even frigates could drop you sov. Tell me how your local capitals would help you to catch those frigs and protect sov?! Big smile Will you move your caps between beacons using stargates?! Shocked
Kieron VonDeux
#285 - 2015-08-16 15:17:56 UTC
Kai55a wrote:
Wake up! Fatigue helped to limit power projection because sov game mechanics required capitals. But this has been changed! Even frigates could drop you sov. Tell me how your local capitals would help you to catch those frigs and protect sov?! Big smile Will you move your caps between beacons using stargates?! Shocked


Power Projection is how far your organization can alter other organizations' actions by its existence.
It certainly influences Sov warfare but is not tied to it.

Example: I operate a merc group out of Providence, I'm not too concerned about getting an escalation drop form forces in Syndicate, but I should be from Curse. So an organization in Syndicate doesn't really project power into Provi, but one from Curse can.

Note: The degree of Power Projection is organization unique and depends on its strategic maneuverability, as in how easy and quickly can it move significant combat forces from one region to another.

Now granted sub cap forces are also related to Power Projection and more so since Jump Fatigue, but Capitals and especially Super Capitals are the trump card of any projection of power.

Example: If I actually operated a merc group out of Provi, I would be more concerned about roams from my neighbors in Curse than anyone that lived in Syndicate, but if I had Capitals and the roamers didn't, I would be more free to use my Capitals to escalate the less I'm worried about escalations from opportunistic third parties, which is where Power Projection comes back into the picture.

The more we as gamers are limited to how far we can Project Power with our trump cards, the more likely it is that we are willing to use our trump cards locally.
That is, until someone decides to deploy next to me with their own Capitals.

Therefore, the farther the largest organizations can project power, the more they stifle out the smaller guys, and the larger they will get.
The less the largest organizations can project power, the more it allows more localized Capital combat to occur, such as those images the Dev posted in the Blog certainly shows.

So, Wake up!, it and this game are not just about the Sov!

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#286 - 2015-08-16 18:34:31 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

"*A bloo bloo*, we have to spend an hour looking for a suitable wormhole to take us most of the way and then cover the rest of the distance in gates like *shudder* poors


To be fair, remember CCP nerfed the arse off null holes because they (*cough* SORT *cough cough*) cried like a little baby about the big bad wormhole people and PL shitting their day up.

You remember, shitting up someones day being the very cornerstone of Eve. Unless you're having a null battle, in which case it's queensberry rules and no fun allowed Roll


You can still generally find a hole that will take you most, or at least a big chunk of the way for a long journey

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Hemmo Paskiainen
#287 - 2015-08-16 20:58:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Hemmo Paskiainen
The capital fatique should be longer, and the range shorter. Need more nerf bat. The meta gaming hyper kiddies all quit, so the adults can come back and play again. Gud stuff. It is ok that it need some time. Mentality change is never easy. Thank you for understanding!


Edit after reading the 2 posts above this one:

*EVE WASN'T ABOUT SHITTING SOMEONES DAY UP*

That said in the past tense of about 5-6 years ago, when all the hyper kiddies were still playing Wow listening to nickelback.
There was a time of gudfights, not making shitting-someones-day-up as a standard or else-i-dont-undock.

That mentality came originally from the goons and wars being fought against them for doing that.... and behold both results: It is the standard!

The exact counter to make a sandbox don't work for yourselves: is exactly that: Denying fun or don't create fun in the first place: and you get bored, and still login in what's "in your mind" a crappy game (that you have created by yourselves).

Still like the blue donut? And all that freely givin' Technetium, which you used for Free-Supers-For-Everyone?

"First impressions can only be given once". The same with your EVE experiences that form your game perception. Oh boy, the Rehab is kicking in hard: Please continue to swallow the donutttt. Let me help you a hand with mah foooot...


(Eve was about the sweaty hand palms, the racing hart and the excitement gained out of gudfights, not alt fapping baby sitting supers)

(Edit edit: perhaps the JF should be range buffed)

If relativity equals time plus momentum, what equals relativity, if the momentum is minus to the time?

Jenshae Chiroptera
#288 - 2015-08-16 22:46:24 UTC
Equto wrote:
... No, what it means that that I can't even fight my enemies now because they can't get in my systems and I can't get in theirs. ....
I find this interesting, coming from Darkness.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Equto
Imperium Technologies
#289 - 2015-08-16 23:32:59 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Equto wrote:
hell it took a week with "instant" travel as you call it.

You are either lying, over-exaggerating, or are completely ignorant. These numbers you keep ripping out of your bum have a striking resemblance to what normally comes out of there.

And it doesn't start with what I what I quoted, however it does make it pretty plain to see now.

Right, because im not talking about moving one person to a location im talking about move an alliance or a significant portion of an alliance. If you could get everyone in a single place online at the same time and for them to magically have everything packed then it might only take a single cyno train pre-phoebe, that was never the case. In case you have never been on or planned a deployment it often takes months of planning and then finally an announcement of where one is moving. After this announcement people pack thier stuff in carriers or super typically at the last minute and then you move the entire fleet throughout a week to your staging system. This does in fact typically take a week with large battles like B-R taking a month to setup and for everyone to get into place.

Even with "instant" travel it took a week minimum to move an alliance for deployment, now its not likely to happen if at all due to the repercussions of leaving your space and the pain of capital travel.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#290 - 2015-08-17 07:57:32 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Hemmo Paskiainen wrote:
Edit after reading the 2 posts above this one:

*EVE WASN'T ABOUT SHITTING SOMEONES DAY UP*

That said in the past tense of about 5-6 years ago, when all the hyper kiddies were still playing Wow listening to nickelback.
There was a time of gudfights, not making shitting-someones-day-up as a standard or else-i-dont-undock.


I (perhaps poorly) paraphrased CCP Solomon:

Quote:
The risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built


The obvious corollary from that is someone is doing the ruining.



@Malcanis - it is a LOT harder. And for what? Because the nullbears whined enough. It was a ludicrous change and it was a disgrace that it was a) posited and b) carried out. "Oh noes, the big bad PL boogyman is upsetting our arranged fights" as if Eve is some sort of arena, or exhibition fight.
Speedkermit Damo
Invicta.
#291 - 2015-08-17 11:41:03 UTC
Bailian Moxtain wrote:
0,0 is more boring now than ever.


Not for me it isn't. But then again I fight my neighbours.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

Jenshae Chiroptera
#292 - 2015-08-17 11:52:08 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Bailian Moxtain wrote:
0,0 is more boring now than ever.
Not for me it isn't. But then again I fight my neighbours.
Yes, it is good having a sub-cap fight without a third party dog piling on with capitals.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#293 - 2015-08-17 12:10:58 UTC
Equto wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Equto wrote:
hell it took a week with "instant" travel as you call it.

You are either lying, over-exaggerating, or are completely ignorant. These numbers you keep ripping out of your bum have a striking resemblance to what normally comes out of there.

And it doesn't start with what I what I quoted, however it does make it pretty plain to see now.

Right, because im not talking about moving one person to a location im talking about move an alliance or a significant portion of an alliance. If you could get everyone in a single place online at the same time and for them to magically have everything packed then it might only take a single cyno train pre-phoebe, that was never the case. In case you have never been on or planned a deployment it often takes months of planning and then finally an announcement of where one is moving. After this announcement people pack thier stuff in carriers or super typically at the last minute and then you move the entire fleet throughout a week to your staging system. This does in fact typically take a week with large battles like B-R taking a month to setup and for everyone to get into place.

Even with "instant" travel it took a week minimum to move an alliance for deployment, now its not likely to happen if at all due to the repercussions of leaving your space and the pain of capital travel.

Trying to get everyone logged on? So, what. Even when you had everyone coming back from vacation or a long work week, you just popped open the old cyno characters and poof, 20 minutes later all the stragglers were on the other side of the map again.

So, what part of that week had anything to do with the speed of your jump drive?

And don't feed me that horsecrap about B-R taking a month to set up. Sure there were things moved in advance. But did that stop people from the north running down south in caps/subcaps to get in on it? Hell no. Nobody was going to stage all those ships in one spot knowing they couldnt suddenly spaceships their way back home to defend their systems. We know that for a fact now, considering how the map has changed.
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#294 - 2015-08-17 12:52:51 UTC
Equto wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Equto wrote:
hell it took a week with "instant" travel as you call it.

You are either lying, over-exaggerating, or are completely ignorant. These numbers you keep ripping out of your bum have a striking resemblance to what normally comes out of there.

And it doesn't start with what I what I quoted, however it does make it pretty plain to see now.

Right, because im not talking about moving one person to a location im talking about move an alliance or a significant portion of an alliance. If you could get everyone in a single place online at the same time and for them to magically have everything packed then it might only take a single cyno train pre-phoebe, that was never the case. In case you have never been on or planned a deployment it often takes months of planning and then finally an announcement of where one is moving. After this announcement people pack thier stuff in carriers or super typically at the last minute and then you move the entire fleet throughout a week to your staging system. This does in fact typically take a week with large battles like B-R taking a month to setup and for everyone to get into place.

Even with "instant" travel it took a week minimum to move an alliance for deployment, now its not likely to happen if at all due to the repercussions of leaving your space and the pain of capital travel.


PL has moved home 7-8 times in the last 10months and i can tell you it does not take months or weeks of planning.
at most we can think about moving and then move in a few days. It might take longer to move the inactives and part timers but the bulk of the active alliance can start moving 24h after we have decided on were we are going.
The only thing that has changes is now when we move we move EVERYTHING were as before we had options to just move a few things and that means most people we move nest door to don't have a chance as there's no batphoneing

If you own space i feel bad for you son i got zero problems because sov aint one.

Even before the movement changes it still took the same amount of time to move everyone it was just much easier to move people after the 1st main TZ move ops.
Harry Saq
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#295 - 2015-08-17 16:27:11 UTC
Tappits wrote:
others wrote:
...something like...travel was easy before, no it wasn't, yes it was...yada yada
PL has moved home 7-8 times in the last 10months and i can tell you it does not take months or weeks of planning.
at most we can think about moving and then move in a few days. It might take longer to move the inactives and part timers but the bulk of the active alliance can start moving 24h after we have decided on were we are going.
The only thing that has changes is now when we move we move EVERYTHING were as before we had options to just move a few things and that means most people we move nest door to don't have a chance as there's no batphoneing

If you own space i feel bad for you son i got zero problems because sov aint one.

Even before the movement changes it still took the same amount of time to move everyone it was just much easier to move people after the 1st main TZ move ops.

There is a significant difference between burning to a fight and committing to a deployment/migration. What took minutes now takes hours, just enough of a dynamics change to alter the action from random piling on to reasoned intended assault.

I too can and have moved tons of crap (including multiple capitals) several regions post greyscale and fozzie, and I have done it in a span of less than 24 hours, but it took almost entirely that, and was a serious pain in the butt of hurry up and wait. Point is, it made me make decisions and optimize what I was committing, where and how. My travel/combat carrier included plenty of solo PvP ships for the areas I had to wait timers in and I couldn't just mindlessly dump whatever doctrine I felt like taking with me. Once I got to my new area I had to figure out what and how to commit assets to conquerable areas and where to stage fall back reserves.

Granted, right now, I take forever to do what I used to do in minutes, and I guarantee it isn't something I am going to want to do just to burn down remote hostiles sov for the lolz (especially knowing they will just recapture after I/we leave). Eventually, when theoretical later changes to localizing economies and fortifying individual systems actually come online, this will actually make sense. Until then, it is giving a healthy wack to the head to us null dwellers that the universe is actually big again, and thank god for that.

I am enjoying watching all the localized conflict, and really hope CCP doesn't cave to the crying and posturing, and makes this "big again" universe actually inhabitable and worth fighting for, and hopefully they get rid of the damned moon isk faucets responsible for the sprawling pointless kingdoms of hurfdom, and allow people to enjoy living and prospering in their closer areas. I have run moon farms, and traveled multiple regions for shopping runs and supplies across an impressive array of player made jump bridge routes, where I stopped even paying attention to what region I was in because it didn't matter. The logistics involved was staggering and impressive, but also an utter waste of potential, where systems where treated as mile markers.

Point is, the universe is still fat and ripe with isk from the old system, and there are plenty of bloated coalitions full of isk and resources, and a whole bunch of smug overlord mentality cromags thinking on regional scales, and crying accordingly. If CCP holds the course, and pulls off what they are trying to do, this ocean of emptiness could actually have the potential to come alive and not just provide "content" for the masses, but unique game experiences for individuals and groups. There would actually be room for new players going forward, and the game might actually be marketable AND sustain retention. The pub and press from the big fights and awesome "this is eve" trailer proved that you could get people in, and showed demonstrably that there was no reason for them to stay.

With the universe as small as it was, it actually couldn't house more people, as 2k tidi fests proved over and over again. Good'ol day rose colored glasses paints those fights as awesome, and they were from a purely conceptual point of view, but in reality they were tidi misery fests of "this would be awesome if..." self generated imagined awesomeness. This has been said a bazillion times and ways.

Anyway, posture away about sov vs no-sov, change is coming regardless, hopefully CCP holds the line and vision, and keeps compressing our potential for action, growth, and daily experience into systems and constellations over regions and sides of the universe. This means a better day to day, some sense of a home, and WAY more importantly, more potential subscriptions.
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Reckless Contingency.
#296 - 2015-08-17 17:51:13 UTC
jumping to a friendly jump beacon in a capital system all beacons, to cut fatigue, which gives greater chance of ambush at the reward of lower fatigue.
if 'projection' seems to be an issue, either the hostiles offline your beacon with entosis
or have the reduction scale in LY distance from the capital <5ly 0% <10ly 20% etc
Juvenius Drakonius
#297 - 2015-08-17 18:25:42 UTC
My Take:


  • BlackOps Battkeship ranges and portal generation should be 3x the basic lv5 carrier range, why? because that is what blackops are supposed to be! And they should have the ability not to be seen in local. Hence BLACKOPS / Covert ops.

  • CUT jump Fatigue! and Limit Timers

  • IDEA: A JUMP POS/Citadale! the hole POS/Citadale is capable of cyno-JUMP to a point in space, but with a 24h timer, just like the death star but limited to just one system in a constellation. The idea is to have a static element but with the capability of jumping to and from systems.

  • TRANSLATE THE CLIENT TO SPANISH!






There is no shame in saying you don't know something, and there is no glory in keeping knolege to yourself.

Vic Jefferson
ElitistOps
WE FORM V0LTA
#298 - 2015-08-17 19:56:06 UTC
Harry Saq wrote:
[smug overlord mentality cromags thinking on regional scales, and crying accordingly.


Lol

As eloquently as that puts the current situation, I think you are overly idealistic in your assertion that their demise means the successional success of the small, feisty content creating states within the context of sov space. There's lots of people who want content, want to joust spaceships and generate great stories, but not all that many enablers of this; the same people who want a small blue list and are also the people who do not want to put up with taking and maintaining sov in the first place. Most die-hard lowsec and NPC nullsec people would never want to take sov-space, at least from my perspective, even if they have the numbers suited to be an ideal resident this new world you speak of. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that current sov mechanics may be suited to smaller groups instead of half the server dog-piling onto one grid, but the people who are interested in smaller scale stuff aren't the least bit interested in what sov offers vs. what it entails currently.

Cloud Ring again is the exception to all this, but aforementioned proximity to so many good regions and high sec, combined with a small playing board for movement, lets it be the poster child of what the jump changes in combination with Fozziesov is capable of. This just doesn't translate well to the entire rest of the map....which is where a few tweaks here and there would really help.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#299 - 2015-08-17 20:56:02 UTC
Jayne Fillon wrote:
First!

To answer your questions:

  1. Jump ranges are fine, they could be better, but they're okay. Keep capital/supercapital range equal.
  2. Jump fatigue needs to be capped at 120 hours so that Fatigue is ALWAYS gone by the next weekend
  3. Fatigue should remain character based, or people are just going to buy ships in duplicate and that's dumb.
  4. You should have a reduction in fatigue when returning to your capital system or point of origin.
  5. Jump fatigue should NOT affect combat effectiveness. At all. Ever.
  6. Move mode is a bandaid fix that isn't needed if the base mechanics themselves still allow enjoyable gameplay.
  7. Do not allow rigs or modules to reduce jump fatigue, but drugs would be okay if done right (w/ penalties etc).
  8. Local content means that I can fight in adjacent regions as much as I want, but not fight someone across the map.


Other suggestions:

  • Make the use of jump bridges have a flat 90% reduction in fatigue when used, regardless of ship type.
  • Give black ops battleships a reduction to jump fatigue.
  • Give other ways for players in deep nullsec to reach empire without having to blue everyone in between.
  • More suggestions as I think of them....


I fully support all of the points listed and think that nothing is missing.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

Kieron VonDeux
#300 - 2015-08-17 22:22:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Kieron VonDeux
Arya Regnar wrote:
Jayne Fillon wrote:
First!

To answer your questions:

  1. Jump ranges are fine, they could be better, but they're okay. Keep capital/supercapital range equal.
  2. Jump fatigue needs to be capped at 120 hours so that Fatigue is ALWAYS gone by the next weekend
  3. Fatigue should remain character based, or people are just going to buy ships in duplicate and that's dumb.
  4. You should have a reduction in fatigue when returning to your capital system or point of origin.
  5. Jump fatigue should NOT affect combat effectiveness. At all. Ever.
  6. Move mode is a bandaid fix that isn't needed if the base mechanics themselves still allow enjoyable gameplay.
  7. Do not allow rigs or modules to reduce jump fatigue, but drugs would be okay if done right (w/ penalties etc).
  8. Local content means that I can fight in adjacent regions as much as I want, but not fight someone across the map.


Other suggestions:

  • Make the use of jump bridges have a flat 90% reduction in fatigue when used, regardless of ship type.
  • Give black ops battleships a reduction to jump fatigue.
  • Give other ways for players in deep nullsec to reach empire without having to blue everyone in between.
  • More suggestions as I think of them....


I fully support all of the points listed and think that nothing is missing.


-Maybe a hyperspace alternate dimension that allows you to travel at speeds that allow you to travel across the entire map in ~48ish hrs. (any faster and it could worsen power projection)
-This is in addition to existing modes of travel

-You cannot attack or be attacked while in it, but Sov scanning mods can scan the entirety of it and can easily track individual ships / fleets within it. (To make it not effective for surprise attacks, and clearly shows when orgs have left their home sys vulnerable, if they choose to move their fleets in hyperspace)

-When you exit hyperspace, you have a 75% chance to land within your desired constellation, and a 25% chance to land in an adjacent one.
-When you log, you re-enter hyperspace where you exited

Possible other features of hyperspace travel.

-Need a very resource demanding hi slot mod to enter that significantly limits combat, similar to cloaks.
-Maybe limit to non jump drive ships initially.

-Are able to change direction but not speed, so you could turn around and head back without existing hyperspace
-Or require exiting hyperspace to alter direction, and require choosing of target constellation for entry into hyperspace
-Could make it a low slot so freighters could make use of it.
-Ships with jump drives can't travel to Hi Sec this way, they have to choose a Low/Null Sec destination
-When you log, you re-enter normal space within the current constellation 75% likely or adjacent 25% likely


This would open up another way to move assets to deep null sec, that still could be interdicted locally since you can't choose target system, but only target constellation, and still have 25% chance to land outside of that

It would also provide a new way to get new players to deep null sec, and travel back.

The biggest issue I see with this is that it provides an easy way around gate camps but that comes at a serious cost of time.
As well, it does make logistics to deep null easier, but they can still be interdicted locally.