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Jump Fatigue Feedback

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Author
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#321 - 2015-08-20 18:36:42 UTC  |  Edited by: SFM Hobb3s
Jayne Fillon wrote:
"Imagine that your capital system, and only your capital system, cleared your jump fatigue when you jumped into it. "



It's a keen idea geared at trying to localize jump traffic closer to home...as for it being 'exploited'....I could see that happen as well.
I would suggest, that for whatever amount of jump fatigue this cleared, a decent percentage of this (ie a higher jump reactivation timer than normal) is added to your next jump timer.

This way if you jump to your capital to clear off your nifty 30 days worth of fatigue, you get a jump re-activation timer of say, a day or something.
Tsukinosuke
Id Est
RAZOR Alliance
#322 - 2015-08-21 14:01:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukinosuke
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Space Friends,

Thanks for those that attended the Q&A session today, we appreciate those who took the time. We'd like to use this thread as a method of discussing Jump Fatigue ideas.

Some of the interesting suggestions that we'd heard and would like to see player opinions on -
  • Altering jump ranges
  • Altering jump fatigue curves
  • Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based
  • Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)
  • Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue)
  • Balance of Jump projection v's Gate projection v's Wormhole projection
  • Jump Fatigue effecting combat effectiveness instead of limiting movement
  • Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops (e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0)
  • Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs)
  • What does local-content mean to you?


We'd also love to hear your ideas, post away space friends.

Metrics Pron


increase base jump ranges, with a cost of jump fatigue..

fatigue must be capsuleer based..
not needed another alternative useless/imbalanced FTL with current navigation philosophy..
a sov structure or improvement level of sov structure or ADM may give a bonus that help your fatigue vanishes faster..

fatigue is caused from movement, so should effect only movement..

there should be a random special WormHole spawns and create a shortcut between two sov entities for a short time.. that may create a local content. ^^



other suggestions are not worth even to say "nope"..

anti-antagonist "not a friend of enemy of antagonist"

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#323 - 2015-08-21 15:05:03 UTC
Tsukinosuke wrote:
there should be a random special WormHole spawns and create a shortcut between two sov entities for a short time.. that may create a local content. ^^

A shortcut between distant places encourages local conflict, yeah.
Lisa Sophie d'Elancourt
Empusa.
#324 - 2015-08-22 09:56:17 UTC
I would love Move-Mode for capitals (increase significantly jump range and reduce combat capabilities). I strongly support jump fatigue mechanism, however it's pain in the ass for solo players for move ops.

Ffs no modules, skills, drugs to reduce jump fatigue.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#325 - 2015-08-22 20:01:16 UTC
For the specific use-case of players joining an alliance an needing to move their stuff, maybe there could be a once-per-year exception mechanism of some kind like the annual medical clone thing?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Justin Cody
War Firm
#326 - 2015-08-22 22:41:32 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Tsukinosuke wrote:
there should be a random special WormHole spawns and create a shortcut between two sov entities for a short time.. that may create a local content. ^^

A shortcut between distant places encourages local conflict, yeah.


These already exist. They are Null to Null Wormholes and the designation is a S199. The other side will be a K162 signature. There are also Null > High and Null > Low
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#327 - 2015-08-24 15:13:45 UTC
Lisa Sophie d'Elancourt wrote:
I would love Move-Mode for capitals (increase significantly jump range and reduce combat capabilities). I strongly support jump fatigue mechanism, however it's pain in the ass for solo players for move ops.



Problem to move-mode is what you attach it to. It would need to be attached to the ship AND prevent the ship from being re-packaged since that pretty much wipe all attributes of the ship (which would include timers if it existed).
Anthar Thebess
#328 - 2015-08-25 09:31:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
What about jump range increasing structure for pos towers (some non citadel structures later)

Let say that it will be similar to the JB , so needs to be placed outside of the tower and when you use it - you land also outside of the pos shields.

Just not tie it to the any sov upgrade.

Why this solution will be balanced?
- limiting usage only for alliance/corp members will make it unusable by large coalitions.
- increased range will come at cost of grater risk - as this will not be safe station to station jumping.
- by making this module easy to incap , smaller groups will be able to disable usage for larger groups.
- putting high energy usage we can easily reduce guns someone put on tower
- we can even introduce 40s activation timer on this module - so no fast movement of large capital fleets will be possible.
- you need to have entry/exit tower and module online


This will bring life to low scale player movement, provide more pvp opportunities , and by modifying base values , like activation timer, extra range, etc ... on this module CCP can easily affect this mechanic, without modifying fatigue or jump range of ships.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#329 - 2015-08-25 10:27:00 UTC
Jayne Fillon wrote:
"Imagine that your capital system, and only your capital system, cleared your jump fatigue when you jumped into it. "



Its a bad idea.. Very bad. Just jump into your capital system, use gate to go to next system, then jump again to your capital system. Rinse and prepeat... in a few minutes you have cleared completely your fatigue.

Result? it is the same as removing fatigue.



Fatigue issues are not easy to solve without breaking the system.

My personal take. First jump of the day is for free. Result is short travels get a huge boost, but does not make long range deployments any easier.

Also solves the problem of no one wanting to do any jump by themselves because at any moment there might be a call for a fleet and if you are 1 jump ahead of the rest of the fleet fatigue wise, you cannot join. So at leat people know that they can jump ONCe per day without damaging themselves. That might be enough to make people feel less opressed.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#330 - 2015-08-25 10:28:56 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
What about jump range increasing structure for pos towers (some non citadel structures later)

Let say that it will be similar to the JB , so needs to be placed outside of the tower and when you use it - you land also outside of the pos shields.

Just not tie it to the any sov upgrade.

Why this solution will be balanced?
- limiting usage only for alliance/corp members will make it unusable by large coalitions.
- increased range will come at cost of grater risk - as this will not be safe station to station jumping.
- by making this module easy to incap , smaller groups will be able to disable usage for larger groups.
- putting high energy usage we can easily reduce guns someone put on tower
- we can even introduce 40s activation timer on this module - so no fast movement of large capital fleets will be possible.
- you need to have entry/exit tower and module online


This will bring life to low scale player movement, provide more pvp opportunities , and by modifying base values , like activation timer, extra range, etc ... on this module CCP can easily affect this mechanic, without modifying fatigue or jump range of ships.



Not bad idea, but needs to be deeply scrutinized to see what type of exploiting people might drag from it. Could be a very important step into making jump fatigue less obtuse.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Vandarra Deneroth
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#331 - 2015-08-26 08:48:34 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Space Friends,

Thanks for those that attended the Q&A session today, we appreciate those who took the time. We'd like to use this thread as a method of discussing Jump Fatigue ideas.

Some of the interesting suggestions that we'd heard and would like to see player opinions on -
  • Altering jump ranges
  • Altering jump fatigue curves
  • Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based
  • Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)
  • Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue)
  • Balance of Jump projection v's Gate projection v's Wormhole projection
  • Jump Fatigue effecting combat effectiveness instead of limiting movement
  • Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops (e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0)
  • Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs)
  • What does local-content mean to you?


We'd also love to hear your ideas, post away space friends.

Metrics Pron


Removal of local in Null and replace it as a sov upgrade for Intel use
Neutrals see nothing - Sov holders have Local/constellation Intel Chanel
NPC mission upgrades for null sov
Gate/Station gun installations
Don Kartel
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#332 - 2015-08-27 00:34:06 UTC
I have been playing this game now since 2003 and after a short break returned to find this new mechanic. I am not sure what the intention was but i get the feeling CCP are either not talking to the right people or not reading the player base correctly.

First ask yourself this. What makes a good game? A good game needs to be one which is fun to play and is easy to pick up and put down at a moments notice. Whats lacking in the game now is pace. Everything being implemented is making the game slow and a chore. For e.g. i jumped in my carrier which i left in the Arse end of nowhere to fine i jumped to 2-3 cyno's which took me hours and then i couldn't do another jump for 2 days. I achieved nothing in that time and i'm not excited about the prospect of doing it again.

Carriers have lost their usefulness and i can't even be bothered to log my titan in as it will probably take me a week to move anywhere.

Now ask yourselves is this what you wanted to achieve from this mechanic? is it coincidence that after it was implemented so many people left the game ?

Do your selves a favour and re-work it or remove it.

regards

Concerned vetran

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#333 - 2015-08-27 16:51:31 UTC
Don Kartel wrote:
I have been playing this game now since 2003 and after a short break returned to find this new mechanic. I am not sure what the intention was but i get the feeling CCP are either not talking to the right people or not reading the player base correctly.

First ask yourself this. What makes a good game? A good game needs to be one which is fun to play and is easy to pick up and put down at a moments notice. Whats lacking in the game now is pace. Everything being implemented is making the game slow and a chore. For e.g. i jumped in my carrier which i left in the Arse end of nowhere to fine i jumped to 2-3 cyno's which took me hours and then i couldn't do another jump for 2 days. I achieved nothing in that time and i'm not excited about the prospect of doing it again.

Carriers have lost their usefulness and i can't even be bothered to log my titan in as it will probably take me a week to move anywhere.

Now ask yourselves is this what you wanted to achieve from this mechanic? is it coincidence that after it was implemented so many people left the game ?

Do your selves a favour and re-work it or remove it.

regards

Concerned vetran


The exodus of players is not because of that, Is not even because of eve. Check how the world is out there, a large group of players cannot pay with credit card anymore because of US sanctions to russian banks, result they need to pay with plex, result plex price skyrocket. The next step is easy to figure. Take the graph of players and cross with theplex price and it becomes clear that the major factor is NOT jump fatigue .

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Alyxportur
From Our Cold Dead Hands
#334 - 2015-08-28 00:38:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Alyxportur
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The exodus of players is not because of that, Is not even because of eve. Check how the world is out there, a large group of players cannot pay with credit card anymore because of US sanctions to russian banks, result they need to pay with plex, result plex price skyrocket. The next step is easy to figure. Take the graph of players and cross with theplex price and it becomes clear that the major factor is NOT jump fatigue .


I feel the need to point out that PLEX prices are rising because ISK is easily available (via incursion farming or nullsec ratting) and because fewer players are buying the PLEX item to seed on the market. As a real-world example, if the US government increased the amount of bills that it printed while global oil production declined, the price of gas would go up due to both the inflation and the decrease in abundance. That (the latter seen more clearly than the former) is what is affecting PLEX prices.

Unless you are CCP who has access to data like which accounts have unsubbed in the last 12-months which (1) have capital skills (2) have jumped frequently in the past and (3) are not unsubbed your aberrant conclusions are based on nothing more than taking two sets of data and saying there is an indirect correlation between a decline in players and a rise in PLEX. Unless you can prove two sets of data have a definitive connection (something that is very hard for players, but that CCP does have the data capabilities to do), you are at best throw out conspiracy theories.

EDIT: Do you have any proof that CCP doesn't accept monetary transactions from Russian IPs? You've made me curious now.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#335 - 2015-08-28 10:45:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Alyxportur wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The exodus of players is not because of that, Is not even because of eve. Check how the world is out there, a large group of players cannot pay with credit card anymore because of US sanctions to russian banks, result they need to pay with plex, result plex price skyrocket. The next step is easy to figure. Take the graph of players and cross with theplex price and it becomes clear that the major factor is NOT jump fatigue .


I feel the need to point out that PLEX prices are rising because ISK is easily available (via incursion farming or nullsec ratting) and because fewer players are buying the PLEX item to seed on the market. As a real-world example, if the US government increased the amount of bills that it printed while global oil production declined, the price of gas would go up due to both the inflation and the decrease in abundance. That (the latter seen more clearly than the former) is what is affecting PLEX prices.

Unless you are CCP who has access to data like which accounts have unsubbed in the last 12-months which (1) have capital skills (2) have jumped frequently in the past and (3) are not unsubbed your aberrant conclusions are based on nothing more than taking two sets of data and saying there is an indirect correlation between a decline in players and a rise in PLEX. Unless you can prove two sets of data have a definitive connection (something that is very hard for players, but that CCP does have the data capabilities to do), you are at best throw out conspiracy theories.

EDIT: Do you have any proof that CCP doesn't accept monetary transactions from Russian IPs? You've made me curious now.



VISA and all major credit card systems were banned by US LAW from accepting international transactions from Russian bank accounts. It doe snto matter if ccp want or not to accept. That is affecting not only CCP, it is affecting ALL internet services that were payed mostly trough credit card and had a reasonable russian population. I am part owner of another ( small but on the same market situation) company that sells internet services and the drop was almost instantaneous and of exaclty 100% of all income from Russia, because VISA and other operators cannot make the transactions anymore.

But in eve the players have another option, PLEX. The result is a massive spike in demand. Sure other factors help, but real economic factors always affected more eve than the subtle internal changes. The generation of isk in fact was reduced a lot by the ban of automation, but the prices INCREASED.

Your conclusions, that jump fatigue caused that (might have helped, but not caused) are the nonsense. The number of active subscribers droped is LARGEST than the amount of capitals frequently active before the change. We did not had dozens of thousands of capital ships being used in such regular way. There would need to be a drop of the MAJORITY of the capital ship owners to have such impact be mostly due to jump changes. And most of the eve population is NOT that childish whiny.

The plex price is MUCH more prevalent reason. Jump changes might have caused some people on the fence to decide to make the jump ? sure. But I cannot see a SIGNIFICANTLY lrge number of player dropping solely because of that (and significant would be at least 15 THOUSAND players, because to drop the AVERAGE number of online players by 10K you need to lose WAY more than 10 k Players).

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#336 - 2015-08-29 03:29:49 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
For the specific use-case of players joining an alliance an needing to move their stuff, maybe there could be a once-per-year exception mechanism of some kind like the annual medical clone thing?


I would abuse the hell out of that... Hint, I have more than one character. Transfer all my stuff to my first alt, move it all to Delve. Transfer all my stuff to my second alt, move it all to Vale. Rinse and repeat.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

lord xavier
Rubbed Out
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#337 - 2015-09-01 16:24:51 UTC

  • Altering jump ranges - A higher jump range would be benefitial. You could take a larger hit of fatigue to get into the fight. Instead of having to go 1-2 gate jumps, cyno, gate jump and warp to get there. In a capital that is pretty much already end-of-fight.

  • Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based - No. This would get abused on a lot of levels. I'd just end up buying 5-6 triage archons, 3-5 triage chimeras and closer to 10+ dreads. Which would give me unlimited jumping in and our of my current home system with a new capital.

  • Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue) - A "home system" bonus for jumping in and out would be nice. I don't know so much about sov bonuses though. Not when you take into consideration some of the areas a single alliance can hold.

  • Jump Fatigue effecting combat effectiveness instead of limiting movement - Without staging in advance, the range and fatigue can make it pretty hard to get a reinforcement. To be honest, as long as people fight you out of your initial jump range. You are looking at a gate jump, cyno, jump through gate and warp. Which for a "powerhouse" ship such as a dread. That is a long time.


  • Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops (e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0) - absolutely ******* not. It is sound and reasonable for a carrier/dread. Something that can dock. for a super capital that is absolutely a horrible feature. Moving, not being able to dock and now you can't defend yourself if you are caught?

  • Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs) - Skills yes, modules no, drugs meh.


  • What does local-content mean to you? - Local content is: Fighting from your home station to your surrounding regions (from your home system). Obviously dependant on where you live in space, and your region. We border a few regions and we can reach quite a bit. But when something is 7 jumps away and I cant reach it because of the amazing large 5-10ly big black holes in space, it gets silly. (I also cant cyno to some systems that are next door because they are 5.01-6.67 LY away even though I can gate jump)

Equto
Imperium Technologies
#338 - 2015-09-03 00:36:59 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Alyxportur wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The exodus of players is not because of that, Is not even because of eve. Check how the world is out there, a large group of players cannot pay with credit card anymore because of US sanctions to russian banks, result they need to pay with plex, result plex price skyrocket. The next step is easy to figure. Take the graph of players and cross with theplex price and it becomes clear that the major factor is NOT jump fatigue .


I feel the need to point out that PLEX prices are rising because ISK is easily available (via incursion farming or nullsec ratting) and because fewer players are buying the PLEX item to seed on the market. As a real-world example, if the US government increased the amount of bills that it printed while global oil production declined, the price of gas would go up due to both the inflation and the decrease in abundance. That (the latter seen more clearly than the former) is what is affecting PLEX prices.

Unless you are CCP who has access to data like which accounts have unsubbed in the last 12-months which (1) have capital skills (2) have jumped frequently in the past and (3) are not unsubbed your aberrant conclusions are based on nothing more than taking two sets of data and saying there is an indirect correlation between a decline in players and a rise in PLEX. Unless you can prove two sets of data have a definitive connection (something that is very hard for players, but that CCP does have the data capabilities to do), you are at best throw out conspiracy theories.

EDIT: Do you have any proof that CCP doesn't accept monetary transactions from Russian IPs? You've made me curious now.



VISA and all major credit card systems were banned by US LAW from accepting international transactions from Russian bank accounts. It doe snto matter if ccp want or not to accept. That is affecting not only CCP, it is affecting ALL internet services that were payed mostly trough credit card and had a reasonable russian population. I am part owner of another ( small but on the same market situation) company that sells internet services and the drop was almost instantaneous and of exaclty 100% of all income from Russia, because VISA and other operators cannot make the transactions anymore.

But in eve the players have another option, PLEX. The result is a massive spike in demand. Sure other factors help, but real economic factors always affected more eve than the subtle internal changes. The generation of isk in fact was reduced a lot by the ban of automation, but the prices INCREASED.

Your conclusions, that jump fatigue caused that (might have helped, but not caused) are the nonsense. The number of active subscribers droped is LARGEST than the amount of capitals frequently active before the change. We did not had dozens of thousands of capital ships being used in such regular way. There would need to be a drop of the MAJORITY of the capital ship owners to have such impact be mostly due to jump changes. And most of the eve population is NOT that childish whiny.

The plex price is MUCH more prevalent reason. Jump changes might have caused some people on the fence to decide to make the jump ? sure. But I cannot see a SIGNIFICANTLY lrge number of player dropping solely because of that (and significant would be at least 15 THOUSAND players, because to drop the AVERAGE number of online players by 10K you need to lose WAY more than 10 k Players).


I certainly can, capital owners often have more accounts than non- capital owners, not sure of the exact number but I wouldn't be surprised for the average number to be 4-5 accounts per capital owner. That means whenever they leave they take all of their account with with, it also means the high-sec ratting alts they have also go affecting every level of eve. Beyond that if the sanctions were truely the reason wouldn't you expect a quick drop as you suggest and not this slow sluggish drop of players over a 2 year period ?
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#339 - 2015-09-03 02:16:34 UTC
Quote:
Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs) - Skills yes, modules no, drugs meh.


Turn this around. Skills no, modules yes, drugs yes.

If you were to introduce skills that reduce jump fatigue, the only thing this would do is force every capital pilot to train it because it would be stupid not to. It would be no different than the learning skills IMO. It would also make fatigue buildup very inconsistent in fleet movements. Good luck sorting out a 1000 man fleet where everyone has different levels of fatigue after 1 jump.

Modules on the other hand give people a choice in their fit, though of course that does bring with it the issue of travel fitting a capital and changing it over once you arrive. Maybe give the modules in question some sort of jump timer in which they can not be offlined or removed.

Drugs are really a no-brainer. Since fatigue is by definition a mental restriction, drugs are the ideal mechanic to give yourself a boost in that department. As long as the drug is expensive enough and has serious enough side effects so it isn't popped like Skittles, I can see that working just fine. Introduce drugs that decrease fatigue buildup, cooldown time and maybe a drug that can instantly reduce (not remove) a portion of your fatigue (maybe temporarily).

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Whisperen
Kenshin.
Initiative Mercenaries
#340 - 2015-09-03 08:10:34 UTC
A way to give people fatigue as a weapon would be nice maybe a bubble that if you jump into it increases your fatigue from that jump. Or let us use the entosis link on cynos and jump bridge / cyno generators to increase the fatigue of ships jumping to them.