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Jump Fatigue Feedback

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Author
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#301 - 2015-08-18 08:45:19 UTC
For now that "hyperspace" is just a buzzword. Without any idea of what is the purpose and capability of this new way of travelling, who and what is supposed to be able to use it and to what end, there's no telling what kind of mechanics should be involved, not to mention their implementation and possible abuses.

If you guys want to start thinking about that, start from the beginning: what kind of movement isn't covered by existing means, why that movement must happen in the game and what should be able to make it.
Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#302 - 2015-08-18 10:47:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
This is just an idea but I think i would be cool to have something like this.

Hyperspace: The ability for jump drive capable ships to travel to solar systems without the need for a cyno or a portal and without the penalty of jump fatigue.

The process:
1. From the map, select a system within range and engage hyper space
2. Hyper space works similar to warping where you enter a tunnel, only it is for inter-system travel
3. Hyperspace is the slowest way of traveling (say 2 minutes per light year)
4. While in hyperspace you can lock and engage targets traveling in your hyperspace tunnel
5. When you exit hyperspace at your destination, you emerge at a random spot in deep space
6. Exiting/entering hyperspace causes a spacial distortion

The counter:
1. Introduce a new ship and module (or change an existing ship e.g. interdictors)
2. This new ship has the ability to track people traveling in hyperspace and detect the distortion created when people enter/exit hyperspace.
3. This ship can then enter the same hyperspace lane as its target
4. Once on the same hyperspace grid, the two (or more) ships can fight each other
5. The new ship has the ability to force its target out of hyperspace but the target could have a way to counter it
6. Only this new ship and super carriers have the ability to do hyperspace interdiction via a hyperspace interdiction module.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#303 - 2015-08-18 11:10:55 UTC
What bad stuff™ would happen if we let caps jump gates two at a time?

I mean I don't even know if it is mechanically possible but it might be a neat little carrot to taking gates more often.
Miss Teri
Open University of Celestial Hardship
#304 - 2015-08-18 12:31:43 UTC
Fatigue should be bound to character (there were many good arguments for this before the introduction).

Idea: Maybe have fatigue timers per ship class? So one could jump with a carrier and acquire carrier fatigue, then board a black ops and start with 0 black ops fatigue.
Miss Teri
Open University of Celestial Hardship
#305 - 2015-08-18 12:38:48 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:

  • Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops (e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0)
  • Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs)



Hum..

Freighters Frog Poison Pill
Duration: 24h
Bonuses:
Reduces fatigue by 90%
Penalties:
Reduces all damage by 100%
Reduces Max locked Targets by 100%
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#306 - 2015-08-18 13:33:11 UTC
Miss Teri wrote:
Hum..

Freighters Frog Poison Pill
Duration: 24h
Bonuses:
Reduces fatigue by 90%
Penalties:
Reduces all damage by 100%
Reduces Max locked Targets by 100%

- Booster effect and penalties are not affected by character skills.
Hemmo Paskiainen
#307 - 2015-08-18 13:43:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Hemmo Paskiainen
Equto wrote:
In case you have never been on or planned a deployment it often takes months of planning and then finally an announcement of where one is moving. After this announcement people pack thier stuff in carriers or super typically at the last minute and then you move the entire fleet throughout a week to your staging system. This does in fact typically take a week with large battles like B-R taking a month to setup and for everyone to get into place.

Even with "instant" travel it took a week minimum to move an alliance for deployment, now its not likely to happen if at all due to the repercussions of leaving your space and the pain of capital travel.



Do you see the problem here? Why do you need carriers and supers in the first place? Have you asked yourself why do you make this automatic assumption? The answer is because you need them, in case the defender brings remote repping capitals/supers. That is where the problem lies. i know this because a loooong time ago, seeing a carrier on the field, used to be considered as extremely rare.

For any ship smaller than a capital, the rock paper scissor principle works. As soon as capitals are on the field, the paper and the scissor turns into rocks or stones (supers).

There is no efficient way to counter supers with subcaps unless there is a 4 to 1 blob of them. The jumpfatique issue were just merely a symptom curing, not a cause curing.

There is a need for a battleship sized anti-capital bomber.

If relativity equals time plus momentum, what equals relativity, if the momentum is minus to the time?

Jenshae Chiroptera
#308 - 2015-08-18 17:05:31 UTC
Hemmo Paskiainen wrote:
...There is a need for a battleship sized anti-capital bomber.
I agree with your reasoning up to that point.
That idea is dangerous. It is insane enough that Fozzie's team might get on board with it.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Lu Ziffer
Jelly Baby Corporation
Guardian Society
#309 - 2015-08-18 18:08:25 UTC
Hemmo Paskiainen wrote:

Do you see the problem here? Why do you need carriers and supers in the first place? Have you asked yourself why do you make this automatic assumption? The answer is because you need them, in case the defender brings remote repping capitals/supers. That is where the problem lies. i know this because a loooong time ago, seeing a carrier on the field, used to be considered as extremely rare.

For any ship smaller than a capital, the rock paper scissor principle works. As soon as capitals are on the field, the paper and the scissor turns into rocks or stones (supers).

There is no efficient way to counter supers with subcaps unless there is a 4 to 1 blob of them. The jumpfatique issue were just merely a symptom curing, not a cause curing.

There is a need for a battleship sized anti-capital bomber.

If you post this everywhere, so I will too.
Lu Ziffer wrote:
This again

Counter to supercaps with subcaps ??

Anything that has a neutralizer .

Why the hell should a ship worth 100bil isk be killed by something that is worth 300mil?

The record to kill a titan with full capacitor is somewhere around 2 minutes with 40 subcaps 20 of them BS the rest were recons and dictors.

You are allowed to bring capitals against supercapitals you might loose some but loosing 5dreadnaughts to kill a titan is a good deal.

If someone puts a full supercapital fleet on the field worth 10 trillion ISK, that is 10.000.000.000.000 ISK you should not be able to kill it with something worth a single supercarrier.


Jayne Fillon
#310 - 2015-08-18 19:57:26 UTC
"Imagine that your capital system, and only your capital system, cleared your jump fatigue when you jumped into it. "

Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI.

Circumstantial Evidence
#311 - 2015-08-18 20:09:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Circumstantial Evidence
In other areas of the game, high damage is balanced by a weak tank. Dreds self-tackle for 5 minutes at a time, and that's supposed to be the weakness. Supercarriers don't have that particular weakness. I think high cost and rarity was supposed to be a balance factor, but well-protected supercapital production has resulted in considerable proliferation. Doubling or tripling the required materials would help slow future production, but do nothing about today's numbers.

Some players have asked for anti-capital bombs or bombers for years, and nothing has happened. If this is really a problem that needs solving (I think capitals are supposed to fight other capitals, if you can't bring more, they won - sorry) it would be easier to just tweak the stats on capitals, nerfing some HP instead of adding a new single-purpose specialized ship or weapon to the game.

Edit:
Jayne Fillon wrote:
"Imagine that your capital system, and only your capital system, cleared your jump fatigue when you jumped into it. "
I think that's much too strong of a bonus. Return from a deployment, don't even pause for drink and dinner, because you can turn right around and start another?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#312 - 2015-08-18 20:25:33 UTC
Jayne Fillon wrote:
"Imagine that your capital system, and only your capital system, cleared your jump fatigue when you jumped into it. "


Yeah there's no way that this could be abused.

I'm perfectly fine with "Jumping into capital system causes no fatigue" because it actually addresses the headline use case of letting people move their stuff to a new home, and maybe even "staying in a capital system causes fatigue to dissipate 2% faster per level of ADM (ie: up to 12% faster)" as the "sov bonus", but just erasing all accumulated fatigue? hah, yeah, no. Way too easy to work that by eg titan bridging pods (or travel ceptors) in at the end of the night and then death/jump-cloning them back to staging points.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#313 - 2015-08-18 20:38:02 UTC
Wait what am I saying it's an awesome idea that will in no way be farmed like crazy by the Imperium and used to utterly dominate the map.

Go right ahead

buk buk

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Zappity
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#314 - 2015-08-18 20:48:12 UTC
Capital clearing fatigue is way too powerful. Receiving no fatigue for jumping in or out would be better, perhaps a range bonus too. But clearing fatigue would just negate the point of the system.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#315 - 2015-08-19 01:35:46 UTC
Jayne Fillon wrote:
First!

  1. Jump ranges are fine, they could be better, but they're okay. Keep capital/supercapital range equal.
  2. Jump fatigue needs to be capped at 120 hours so that Fatigue is ALWAYS gone by the next weekend
  3. Fatigue should remain character based, or people are just going to buy ships in duplicate and that's dumb.
  4. You should have a reduction in fatigue when returning to your capital system or point of origin.
  5. Jump fatigue should NOT affect combat effectiveness. At all. Ever.
  6. Move mode is a bandaid fix that isn't needed if the base mechanics themselves still allow enjoyable gameplay.
  7. Do not allow rigs or modules to reduce jump fatigue, but drugs would be okay if done right (w/ penalties etc).
  8. Local content means that I can fight in adjacent regions as much as I want, but not fight someone across the map.


Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

Other suggestions:

  • Make the use of jump bridges have a flat 90% reduction in fatigue when used, regardless of ship type.
  • Give black ops battleships a reduction to jump fatigue.
  • Give other ways for players in deep nullsec to reach empire without having to blue everyone in between.
  • More suggestions as I think of them....

NONONONONONONONONONO.
None of that please. Especially not reduction on jump bridges, or we're back to the same pre-phoebe cancer. You can already use indy to travel bridges at 90% reduction, so it's not even needed. If your butt explodes when you have to change to a non-combat ship, get a battle badger.
And **** black ops battleships. Yes I own one. **** it anyway.
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#316 - 2015-08-19 02:17:55 UTC
Jayne Fillon wrote:
"Imagine that your capital system, and only your capital system, cleared your jump fatigue when you jumped into it. "


Imagine that your capital system, and only your capital system, cleared your jump fatigue when you jumped into it once every 168 hours.

Fixed that for you.

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

Hemmo Paskiainen
#317 - 2015-08-19 13:06:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Hemmo Paskiainen
Lu Ziffer wrote:
This again

Counter to supercaps with subcaps ??

Anything that has a neutralizer .

Why the hell should a ship worth 100bil isk be killed by something that is worth 300mil?

The record to kill a titan with full capacitor is somewhere around 2 minutes with 40 subcaps 20 of them BS the rest were recons and dictors.

You are allowed to bring capitals against supercapitals you might loose some but loosing 5dreadnaughts to kill a titan is a good deal.

If someone puts a full supercapital fleet on the field worth 10 trillion ISK, that is 10.000.000.000.000 ISK you should not be able to kill it with something worth a single supercarrier.




I think you are comparing too many apples with cookies. I don't think it is correct to assume that a 100b ship should be able to be killed by a 300 mil ship. If it were 30, 3k dps, 150mil costing, paperthin battleships dressed up as anti capital bombers only, it would be just fine.

Neutralizers have a special place in EVE. You can tell that by the way how neutralizers are balanced in the specialized ships for it and how they are balanced themselves.

Besides, you are just talking about a single occurrence, as a titan should never be in a position that just 40 people can kill it. That would just mean that the Titan itself has been used dangerous wrong. Were was his support fleet? What is he doing outside a fleet? Why was he used outside a fleet? Isn't his role to support a fleet with his abilities and bonus (I am aware that the perception could be messed up a bit by team greyscale in relation with titan tracking). Its just a big fleet commandship with a jump portal and a 1 shotter.

You are exactly pointing out the problem again, the only current counter to a full supercapital fleet is a bigger supercapital fleet. There is no gypsy solution for it, no rock paper scissors. And that is the next obstacle for making the new sov work. The real cause of the original blue donut problem still exists, and as long as the losses get's replenished and the goo & rent keeps flowing, it just continue to exists, and preventing people from taking sov and have fun like 2007.

Besides, being able to kill a superfleet with a single supercarrier, just means that 1 supercarrier needs to be just as strong as the superscarriers in that superfleet, therefor you are just talking in circles.

If relativity equals time plus momentum, what equals relativity, if the momentum is minus to the time?

Geanos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#318 - 2015-08-20 09:12:09 UTC
Regarding the "travel mode" for capitals, what do you think about making them similar with the black ops and have the same range, fatigue and ability to jump to a covert beacon?
TinkerHell
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#319 - 2015-08-20 09:57:56 UTC
Hemmo Paskiainen wrote:
You are exactly pointing out the problem again, the only current counter to a full supercapital fleet is a bigger supercapital fleet. There is no gypsy solution for it, no rock paper scissors. And that is the next obstacle for making the new sov work. The real cause of the original blue donut problem still exists, and as long as the losses get's replenished and the goo & rent keeps flowing, it just continue to exists, and preventing people from taking sov and have fun like 2007.

Besides, being able to kill a superfleet with a single supercarrier, just means that 1 supercarrier needs to be just as strong as the superscarriers in that superfleet, therefor you are just talking in circles.



This is incorrect. Subcaps can easily kill off all the drones of a supercarrier fleet with barely any effort at all. The problem you have is you are unable to kill them because of remote reps not the supercarriers themselves. Which are countered by neuts, which in turn is countered by cap chains. I say nerf remote repping, make it stack per ship that is RRIng you and supercaps have just lost their tanks vs subcaps and can easily die to them while still doing no damage as fighters and fighter bombers EHP are a joke.

Additionally this also buffs triage as if you only can have so many ships repping you, you will want the RR coming from ships that have a bonus to it.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#320 - 2015-08-20 17:46:15 UTC
I know CCP is pushing out Galatea but any updates on this discussion?

Not today spaghetti.