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Dev Blog: Fleet Warp Changes - Coming in August Release

First post
Author
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#101 - 2015-06-25 01:15:21 UTC
Rorqurals are pretty good to have for boosts when mining, that's true...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#102 - 2015-06-25 01:18:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
will you be able to save a broadcasted bm via right click as fleet member?

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

2Impact
Topes Lines
Goonswarm Federation
#103 - 2015-06-25 01:31:23 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
2Impact wrote:

seriously? because.... everyone has that, right?


the orca you're citing could be doing the exact same thing: sitting in the pos where the fleet can be warped to him. Sure, he can't tractor in the jetcans that way, but he can still give boosts and provide safety that way.


ROFL
Reagalan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#104 - 2015-06-25 01:46:06 UTC
I just realized that this whole can't fleetwarp to mission sites will damage a rare pastime of mine. Every so often I find someone who wants to play this game, give them a key thing, and for their first day I run the newbee missions alongside them. Among the many things I go over is the importance of aligning to broadcasts when the FC calls for it, then fleetwarping them, often to mission sites.

Newbees find fleetwarps fascinating.

They also find them incredibly useful for things like POS and JB bookmarks. Or to teach them the concept of safespots.

To fix on-grid combat probing, add in one modifier: the closer a scanning ship is to the target ship (not anomalies or structures), then the weaker the effective scan strength of your combat probes. It doesn't even need a code overhaul. Apply the scan function like it does now, but if the range to a scanned ship returns as less than some number (like 1Mm) then apply the scan function a second time with a reduced probe strength, with the probe strength reducion inversely proportional to the distance to the target, and display that modified scan result to the scan results panel.

Call it "scan sensor interference" or something. Use an inverse rational function so the deviations get extreme at close ranges. Doing this would obliterate the whole "hostiles are on grid, bounce, probe, fleetwarp" thing while not affecting safespot probing one bit. Don't fix what isn't broken, keep fleet warp as it is right now.
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#105 - 2015-06-25 01:54:04 UTC
2Impact wrote:
ROFL


Hey, you're the one complaining based on mining fleets warping to POS's. I'm just pointing out that you've got options - and I'm one of the people saying this change won't do what Fozzie and Larrikin say it's supposed to do.
Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2015-06-25 02:20:15 UTC
In days of old
When devs were bold
And the nerf bat was invented
They were never wild
They swung it mild
So fvck ups were prevented

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.

Dictateur Imperator
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#107 - 2015-06-25 02:31:59 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:

Minchurra wrote:
1. Can I fleet warp my fleet to a fleet member as I can now, or does it require extra steps? (Right click watch list > Warp fleet to)
2. Can I fleet warp my fleet to a personal bookmark I made a couple years ago as I can now, or does it require extra steps? (Right click in space > Warp fleet to)
3. Can I fleet warp my fleet to a personal bookmark, or one belonging to somebody else once it has been broadcast?

1. You can fleet-warp to a fleet member as you can now.
2. You can not fleet-warp to a personal bookmark or probe result. Instead, you can broadcast that bookmark and fleet members can warp themselves. Or a fleet member can warp to the bookmark, then you can fleet-warp to the fleet member.
3. You can't fleet-warp to broadcast bookmarks.


So you don't nerf only combat activity, you nerf all people who use multi account for other activity lie mining, like transport,ect... they must engage warp account per account to go to each point if it's not a celestial (like a ping a 200 KM from a gate to safe move in 0.0 or to avoid bubble, or just go to a BM to have a good place to mine in huge belt of 0.0).

So maybe make something like that is better : BM les of 5 min can't be BM, and less of 15 min can't be fleet warpable. Other case it's not only pvp you will ill but a lot of economic activity.

You want a proof of it ? Ok, imagine a 5 to 10 account miner: 1 rorqual/orca in pos 4-9 player in belt who dig : The player must mae 4-9 ALONE WARP to go on belt. But if neutral enter on system he can fleet warp to be safe. It's just a nerf of mining speed. So an other solution could be to allow the actual fleet warp mechanism for account on same IP/legal owner.

2Impact
Topes Lines
Goonswarm Federation
#108 - 2015-06-25 03:18:51 UTC  |  Edited by: 2Impact
Arrendis wrote:
2Impact wrote:
ROFL


Hey, you're the one complaining based on mining fleets warping to POS's. I'm just pointing out that you've got options - and I'm one of the people saying this change won't do what Fozzie and Larrikin say it's supposed to do.


Arrendis, I wasn't talking about my personal mining fleet/behaviour, I was thinking about scenarios that will get a hammer that will only kill the game, and not improve it.
Your statements were a troll from the beginning, cause they didn't criticize nor approved mine, but only pointed to some "absolute" that everyone should do/have, just because you do/have.
Your statements apply to your mining behaviour only and don't express any scenario.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#109 - 2015-06-25 04:52:24 UTC
Dictateur Imperator wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:

Minchurra wrote:
1. Can I fleet warp my fleet to a fleet member as I can now, or does it require extra steps? (Right click watch list > Warp fleet to)
2. Can I fleet warp my fleet to a personal bookmark I made a couple years ago as I can now, or does it require extra steps? (Right click in space > Warp fleet to)
3. Can I fleet warp my fleet to a personal bookmark, or one belonging to somebody else once it has been broadcast?

1. You can fleet-warp to a fleet member as you can now.
2. You can not fleet-warp to a personal bookmark or probe result. Instead, you can broadcast that bookmark and fleet members can warp themselves. Or a fleet member can warp to the bookmark, then you can fleet-warp to the fleet member.
3. You can't fleet-warp to broadcast bookmarks.


So you don't nerf only combat activity, you nerf all people who use multi account for other activity lie mining, like transport,ect... they must engage warp account per account to go to each point if it's not a celestial (like a ping a 200 KM from a gate to safe move in 0.0 or to avoid bubble, or just go to a BM to have a good place to mine in huge belt of 0.0).

So maybe make something like that is better : BM les of 5 min can't be BM, and less of 15 min can't be fleet warpable. Other case it's not only pvp you will ill but a lot of economic activity.

You want a proof of it ? Ok, imagine a 5 to 10 account miner: 1 rorqual/orca in pos 4-9 player in belt who dig : The player must mae 4-9 ALONE WARP to go on belt. But if neutral enter on system he can fleet warp to be safe. It's just a nerf of mining speed. So an other solution could be to allow the actual fleet warp mechanism for account on same IP/legal owner.



Warp one miner to belt, fleet warp the rest to that miner.
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#110 - 2015-06-25 04:57:53 UTC
So basically you're still going to go ahead and dump on the quality of life of people like me who run 2-4 accounts on the same grid, while offering zero corresponding benefits for anyone who (like me) don't participate in fleet warfare.

Great.

Pro-tip: leave squad warp alone. If you wanna nerf 250-man fleets, then nerf 250-man fleets, not 4-man gangs.

Sarcasm note: I guess there is one group that will benefit from this change-- interceptor pilots! Now it will be SO EASY to get complete safety just MWD in a random direction, since no tacklers will be able to be sling-shotted on you. That's good, because interceptor pilots really need quality of life improvements.
knobber Jobbler
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#111 - 2015-06-25 06:49:53 UTC
Dominous Nolen wrote:
knobber Jobbler wrote:
You could just solve the bombing problem by making them decloak each other again under 2k and put the actual skill back in being a bomber FC and pilot. It would remedy so many of the issues you're trying to solve.


Oh please no... They brought this one to table 6 months+ ago and the decloak changes were to wide reaching outside of bombers. unless they put some way to see cloaked fleet members this would be utter chaos.


You must be new, because its the way it used to work and never was a problem after practice and proper squad use.
dhunpael
#112 - 2015-06-25 06:55:19 UTC
There are some very good idea's here

I like the idea of allowing squad warping, combine this with smaller maximum fleets and you have more participation than with the proposed changes.

With the changes you need ONE scout, if you use the squad warping, you need MORE specialised people. This will also help logistics to land on grid at the same time!

Yes i know, not every member has to warp himself to some spot (if there isn't ONE scout) , thats true, but people afk in a fleetwarp are so funny Lol


And besides from that, try to test individual warps with TIDI at 50% or higher, just test it at CCP HQ and see how that goes.


As for the probe scanning => THIS:

Reagalan wrote:

To fix on-grid combat probing, add in one modifier: the closer a scanning ship is to the target ship (not anomalies or structures), then the weaker the effective scan strength of your combat probes. It doesn't even need a code overhaul. Apply the scan function like it does now, but if the range to a scanned ship returns as less than some number (like 1Mm) then apply the scan function a second time with a reduced probe strength, with the probe strength reducion inversely proportional to the distance to the target, and display that modified scan result to the scan results panel.

Call it "scan sensor interference" or something. Use an inverse rational function so the deviations get extreme at close ranges. Doing this would obliterate the whole "hostiles are on grid, bounce, probe, fleetwarp" thing while not affecting safespot probing one bit. Don't fix what isn't broken, keep fleet warp as it is right now.



And one last remark, for anyone saying (be CCP members, ISD, CMS or just players) that you can just use an other alt, that's a plain wrong way of thinking. You want more participation? Sure, but an alt is NOT an extra player and is by definition NOT more participation but just more tedious. Where a lot of changes in the recent patches are based on the idea that things should be easier for anyone, that more people should do stuff, using alts is NOT making things easier for anyone.
Minchurra
Perkone
#113 - 2015-06-25 07:39:30 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:

Minchurra wrote:
1. Can I fleet warp my fleet to a fleet member as I can now, or does it require extra steps? (Right click watch list > Warp fleet to)
2. Can I fleet warp my fleet to a personal bookmark I made a couple years ago as I can now, or does it require extra steps? (Right click in space > Warp fleet to)
3. Can I fleet warp my fleet to a personal bookmark, or one belonging to somebody else once it has been broadcast?


1. You can fleet-warp to a fleet member as you can now.
2. You can not fleet-warp to a personal bookmark or probe result. Instead, you can broadcast that bookmark and fleet members can warp themselves. Or a fleet member can warp to the bookmark, then you can fleet-warp to the fleet member.
3. You can't fleet-warp to broadcast bookmarks.


Well that kinda sucks.

So long as I can fleet warp to a fleet member I'll just put my scouting alt at a safespot when I need to do this then.
Cleanse Serce
La Forge.
Toilet Paper.
#114 - 2015-06-25 08:01:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Cleanse Serce
Minchurra wrote:
Well that kinda sucks.

So long as I can fleet warp to a fleet member I'll just put my scouting alt at a safespot when I need to do this then.

Why does it have to be an "alt" ?
Don't you have specialised people in your fleets that would love to do this role by going in to make a wrp-to point ?
Don't you have talented pilot that could anticipate your wishes as an FC to position himself at the right place, at the right moment ?
Do you have such poor opinion about your fleet members that you think they can't right click on a broadcast to warp themself when you ask for it ?

I think this whole change opens so many possibilities i don't even know right now.
That's exciting.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#115 - 2015-06-25 08:04:38 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
So basically you're still going to go ahead and dump on the quality of life of people like me who run 2-4 accounts on the same grid, while offering zero corresponding benefits for anyone who (like me) don't participate in fleet warfare.

Great.

Pro-tip: leave squad warp alone. If you wanna nerf 250-man fleets, then nerf 250-man fleets, not 4-man gangs.

Sarcasm note: I guess there is one group that will benefit from this change-- interceptor pilots! Now it will be SO EASY to get complete safety just MWD in a random direction, since no tacklers will be able to be sling-shotted on you. That's good, because interceptor pilots really need quality of life improvements.


Exactly.

Yes, Larrikin already confirmed that he, like a few other very vocal folks, does not like multi-boxers or care about their concerns. Apparently it is just fine to have two-four alts doing different things (e.g. scouting/tackling interceptor, Off-Grid Booster, prober alt, and elite solo PvP main), but heaven forbid you want to warp two-four pilots to and from the same belt or anomaly. The Horror. The Horror.

Meanwhile, Interceptor pilots, kiting gangs, Slippery Petes, and Off-Grid Boosters are all rejoicing over these changes.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#116 - 2015-06-25 08:10:57 UTC
Cleanse Serce wrote:
Minchurra wrote:
Well that kinda sucks.

So long as I can fleet warp to a fleet member I'll just put my scouting alt at a safespot when I need to do this then.

Why does it have to be an "alt" ?
Don't you have specialised people in your fleets that would love to do this role by going in to make a wrp-to point ?
Don't you have talented pilot that could anticipate your wishes as an FC to position himself at the right place, at the right moment ?
Do you have such poor opinion about your fleet members that you think they can't right click on a broadcast to warp themself when you ask for it ?

I think this whole change opens so many possibilities i don't even know right now.
That's exciting.


I have already mastered the skill of sitting cloaked 200km above a gate, so that the fleet can warp to a bounce point.

I have also already mastered the skill of flying in a random direction in an interceptor, so that the fleet can warp to a rolling safe spot.

No, these are not engaging roles. That is why they are done by bookmarks or alts.

Yes, in large fleets, having one or two more selfless, masochistic people dedicate themselves to these roles is a possibility. Now take that down to the scale of a 5-10 man gang. You really expect one of the 5-10 people to do this as his primary job? The 5-10 man gang already has meaningful roles for all 5-10 people in the gang.

And, when you cannot squad warp tacklers on to an Off-Grid Booster, kiting gang, AFK-MWDing interceptor, etc, then you cannot catch them.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Jon Hellguard
X-COM
#117 - 2015-06-25 08:12:14 UTC
I don't like this change. It makes no sence to add this complexity on what is allowed and what not. No matter how I turn arguments. Better remove Fleetwarp completly and just add the warp to broadcast functions. Do not make weird restrictions to different types of broadcasts. After all, if a broadcasts is sent, everyone should now where it came from.

There is one major benefit to fleet warp and that was timing-coordination. If you want to keep this, then build in a "Fleet Warp"-Broadcast that is acceptable by all receipients and once accepted by every pilot the fleet warps. No more "your ship warps somewhere because your FC said so".

Also, if this is part of the "limit the multiboxers abilities" remove the "regroup" function as it automatically alters any ships movement without proper notifying the pilot. Even a scout that was flagged for "except from fleet warp" starts moving unwillingy.

It makes sence to be able to warp to any broadcast!
"I need backup", "I'm in position", "Enemy Spotted", "I will double your ISK", "Need Armor!"
"Align to...", "Warp to
I can't think of any broadcast that should not be warpable. What if you could broadcast an actual enemy position from a scout. Or the scout broadcasts a wormhole rather then being there himself? I know that would affect gameplay more, as snipers and such would have to take care and the 150km warp would probably need to be sized up or so. But i wanted to leave this question...

Make the tell-tell sign! Be sure to visually enhance a broadcast so players now it's warpable or not!
I'm not going to explain "well you can warp to this, but you can't warp to that because really know why." It should be clearly visible if a broadcast is warp-able or not.

I doubt my feedback is loud enough. But for what it's worth: Your UI volks are doing a great job in making the unlogic-gamelogic easy to handle. Without them, changes like this and Fozzy Sov would be a hell to explain and understand really.
Cleanse Serce
La Forge.
Toilet Paper.
#118 - 2015-06-25 08:16:50 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
I have already mastered the skill of sitting cloaked 200km above a gate, so that the fleet can warp to a bounce point.

I have also already mastered the skill of flying in a random direction in an interceptor, so that the fleet can warp to a rolling safe spot.

No, these are not engaging roles. That is why they are done by bookmarks or alts.

Yes, in large fleets, having one or two more selfless, masochistic people dedicate themselves to these roles is a possibility. Now take that down to the scale of a 5-10 man gang. You really expect one of the 5-10 people to do this as his primary job? The 5-10 man gang already has meaningful roles for all 5-10 people in the gang.

And, when you cannot squad warp tacklers on to an Off-Grid Booster, kiting gang, AFK-MWDing interceptor, etc, then you cannot catch them.


Talk for your self, i'm sure pilots willing to do this role and enjoying it exist.

In small gang fleets pilots are autonomous and generally good solo pilots they can take care of themselves and warp individually to broadcasted bms or their own ones.
Minchurra
Perkone
#119 - 2015-06-25 08:23:01 UTC
Cleanse Serce wrote:
Minchurra wrote:
Well that kinda sucks.

So long as I can fleet warp to a fleet member I'll just put my scouting alt at a safespot when I need to do this then.

Why does it have to be an "alt" ?
Don't you have specialised people in your fleets that would love to do this role by going in to make a wrp-to point ?
Don't you have talented pilot that could anticipate your wishes as an FC to position himself at the right place, at the right moment ?
Do you have such poor opinion about your fleet members that you think they can't right click on a broadcast to warp themself when you ask for it ?

I think this whole change opens so many possibilities i don't even know right now.
That's exciting.


Nobody wants to spend their time sitting at a safespot when they could be part of the fight. You can't wait for somebody to leave and make you a warp-in in this scenario because when you need to bail out, it needs to be now and not in 5 seconds time when you're bubbled to hell.

This is why boosters are alts, probers are alts and scouts are alts. I don't have to rely on somebody talented to anticipate what I want to do when I know what I want to do and can accomplish it with my alt 100% of the time.
Taru Audeles
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2015-06-25 08:47:49 UTC
Just look at your subscriber numbers and at the online numbers. There is only so much sand that you can take away from the Sandbox before people stop playing. Your first changes were horrible and with the changes to the broadcasts this might work.
But please think very carefully how miserable you wanna make the life of null sec people.
Why not remove fleets complete from your so called Sandbox? Why not remove the whole WingCommander and SquadCommander mechanics when they cannot command anything.