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Dev Blog: Fleet Warp Changes - Coming in August Release

First post
Author
Kendarr
Infinite Violence
Goonswarm Federation
#121 - 2015-06-25 08:56:25 UTC
Steven Ellecone wrote:
I really hope this isn't the "solution" to wormholes. Not being able to fleet warp to a wormhole is a really big deal. If your whole fleet is landing at different times it's giving a huge advantage to the side that's already established on the hole. They'll easily be able to pop a few people before logi can start getting reps up.
Please do not make this change without allowing wormholers to be able to fleet warp to a wormhole or you're going to really discourage wormhole pvp. I can see a lot of groups deciding to just sit in their POS rather than fight if they know they are going to lose a few ships at the beginning of a fight. That's enough to easily turn the tide on most 5-15 person fights. One side is going to establish control on a hole and the other side will be unwilling to fight unless they have superior numbers and firepower since they will be at a huge disadvantage without fleet warp.


Would you not just have someone cloaked on the hole and fleet warp to them. Or fleet warp them to a cloaky at a warpable distance to the hole, align the fleet to the hole and tell everyone to warp?

Mechanics change. Think outside the sandbox.
Kendarr
Infinite Violence
Goonswarm Federation
#122 - 2015-06-25 09:15:29 UTC
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
To quote The Big Lebowski, "You're killing your father, Larry."

Sorry, Larrikin. You are still off the mark. We have tried to tell you any number of things to make Eve a better, more engaging game. 90+ pages of feedback (although admittedly about 43 pages of that was Baltec trolling).

The challenge in Eve needs to come from the opposing players, not making it harder and more tedious to do basic things in game.

Listen to Reagalan, Arrendis, Alexis Nightwish, Altrue, etc. These people actually know a thing or two about playing Eve in the current environment. They are not blinded by contempt for the average Eve player.

We all would love to see changes that make Eve more exciting - less tedious. Changes that make Eve more fun to play - less of a chore. Your changes are not achieving that goal.

It takes a very big man to admit that he is wrong. No one will think less of you if you come up with a better solution than this halfhearted concession, which does not even come close to addressing the heart of the matter.

As I said before, you want to increase participation... What is the difference between fleet warping the fleet to a scout and fleet warping the fleet to a bookmark? How is that anything other than a tedious, nonsensical role? I've already mastered the art of sitting cloaked 200km off a gate to act as a bookmark.

How is your goal better than making fleets a maximum of fifty players? And or just making it so you can only squad warp. Each of those changes requires many more highly engaged players than your proposal. The former drastically changes the makeup and composition of every large fleet - in a positive direction. It automatically makes Logistics less powerful in large fleets, without huge nerfs to them as a ship class.

How do your changes make sniper doctrines, apart from Slippery Petes, more viable?

How is making each fleet operation take longer to move from Point A to Point B make the game more engaging? I already have to budget 3-4 hours for a single strategic operation, which may or may not result in a fight. That doesn't count the time I spent preparing as an FC.

To paraphrase Altrue, "make the game more fun to play." Not more time-consuming. Not more tedious.



This man hits the nail on the head and sends it to the core of .. Caldari Prime.

You know it's going to be the FC's alt who is the warp-to prober - making him more tired, and the fleet members, more bored.

You know this will increase travel time even more after the Phoebe hack - do you really want to take away that much time from active gameplay and make it less enjoyable for people on limited time budgets?

And you know it will make Petes and OGBs even more uncatchable.

CCP, if you want to increase fleet engagement, please consider allowing broadcast of probe results. Has all the upside of what you want to do, and none of the downsides of your proposed plan.


Well sed!
Zappity
Exit-Strategy
Unchained Alliance
#123 - 2015-06-25 09:16:50 UTC
Scouting requirements do not scale with fleet size. A small fleet requiring new dedicated scout(s) are proportionally much worse off than large fleets who require the same number of scouts.

Block warfare should pay for the sins of block warfare, not small gangs.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Kendarr
Infinite Violence
Goonswarm Federation
#124 - 2015-06-25 09:19:54 UTC
Reagalan wrote:
Don't fix what isn't broken, keep fleet warp as it is right now.


Exactly what needs to happen.
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#125 - 2015-06-25 09:32:41 UTC
Cleanse Serce wrote:


Talk for your self, i'm sure pilots willing to do this role and enjoying it exist.

In small gang fleets pilots are autonomous and generally good solo pilots they can take care of themselves and warp individually to broadcasted bms or their own ones.


If they are, then they are doing it already. And if they are not doing it, they should join one of the any number of alliances which promote such independent action. It's silly to think that this new speedbump in gameplay will lead to more "I was there" pilots.
Malou Hashur
Enterprise Holdings
#126 - 2015-06-25 11:09:26 UTC
Ted McManfist wrote:
Quote:
The most common long range (defined as +150km) fleets seen in recent times are “Slippery Petes”. These are specialized Tengus that are fit with lots of ECCM, making them difficult to probe down. The combination of on-grid combat probing and fleet-warps have choked out most other long-range doctrines.

We expect these changes to give long-range fleets time to deploy countermeasures, such as stop-bubbles


Do you guys even play this game?



With everything that they have screwed up over the last year, its pretty obvious that they do not.

CCP Philosophy ==>>

  1. If it works, break it. If it’s broken, leave it and break something else.

  2. Ignore all Forum comments that raise issues and concerns about our "features", and bring said "features" in anyway.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#127 - 2015-06-25 11:13:50 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Can you please give us a way to regulate Au/s of warping, please?
Malou Hashur
Enterprise Holdings
#128 - 2015-06-25 11:15:29 UTC
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:
CCP Larrikin, thank you for taking the feedback and modifying your proposal. I believe this set will get you much closer to promoting the individual involvement you seek to promote.

You know what would make this close to perfect? Allowing fleet members to warp to a probe result. Right now, we're still stuck with the tedious and time-wasting warp to the FC alt who does the probing. If probe results will be broadcastable, it allows for individual pilot action while reducing time people are sitting on their hands.

knobber Jobbler wrote:
You could just solve the bombing problem by making them decloak each other again under 2k and put the actual skill back in being a bomber FC and pilot. It would remedy so many of the issues you're trying to solve.

Yeah? That's more about luck than any skill, since you can't navigate around what you can't see. With the current changes, the first bomber to decloak will give away the position on the others, so will require superb coordination. Which is great. And infinitely better than your silly ideas.

Mostlyharmlesss wrote:
Uh what. I don't understand what you mean with stopping bubbles and slippery petes - They're bubble immune. This change will make them harder to catch(?) and thus making everyone fly them. The only counter to slippery petes are combat probing and landing right ontop of them with scrams. Y'know, the very thing you just made harder.

He meant other sniper doctrines - BS- and BC-based ones - which will be able to deploy those defensive measures.


That’s the problem.

These changes will not encourage people to fly more BS & BC fleets, they will be more of a pain in the ass to move than they are now.

The problem lies with the fact that probing has been made so ridiculously easy. A while back it took a lot of training and skill to be a really good prober, now it takes no time to get a 100% hit and is a lot less skill intensive.

All this could have been solved by making probing a real skill again.

CCP Philosophy ==>>

  1. If it works, break it. If it’s broken, leave it and break something else.

  2. Ignore all Forum comments that raise issues and concerns about our "features", and bring said "features" in anyway.

James Zimmer
No BS Industries
#129 - 2015-06-25 11:40:15 UTC
Warp coordination will be difficult with different warp speeds (I.E when you use cruiser logistics wiyh your battleship fleet). Could be fun timing it out, though that's going to be terrible in big systems like my home in Thera. Staging locations will be more important. As others have mentioned, some way to control warp speed would be great.

On the flip side, I really like the warp to broadcast thing; it's actually a small boost to mixed-corp fleets. I've run PvE fleets where our scout who located the sigs was out of corp, and transfering the bookmarks was a pain. This will make that way easier through the broadcast window after a bit of a delay.
Cypherous
Liberty Rogues
Aprilon Dynasty
#130 - 2015-06-25 11:41:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Cypherous
CCP Logibro wrote:
In a continued effort to make sure that the skill of every member of your fleet counts towards the fight, we are making changes to fleet warp mechanics. We've already had a torrent of feedback, and today CCP Larrikin has a dev blog with more details on what is changing.


And STILL no fix for mixed fleets warp speed adjustment which the current fleet warp system is key to, when are you going to address that issue?

Because it doesn't seem like you read all of the feedback in the last thread, i suggest training reading to level 1 and starting again

Edit because IRC OP

[12:42] Shane: Well now you can broadcast things as warp to, it doesn't actually fix many of the complaints
[12:42] Shane: Mixed fleet gang warps still wont be a thing as you can't set warp speeds
[12:44] Trincer: Shane, setting warp speed would be cool, but you cant abort a warp midwarp right, inbefore a troll warps a fleet 1000 au, at .0000000001 au a second
[12:45] Shane: Thats easily fixed though
[12:45] Shane: Have the warp speed options only list the speeds of the ships in the fleet
[12:45] Shane: At worst a troll could warp you the speed of a titan assuming there was one in fleet
[12:46] Shane: Besides you have this set on a per pilot basis
[12:46] Shane: With some sort of broadcast option to set warp speed to x for people to click
[12:47] Shane: That way you could still have a mixed fleet at the right speed with minimal trolling and set warp speeds
[12:47] Shane: Individual players like scouts/tackle could still opt out and get on field faster
[12:48] Shane: Whereas combat and logi could warp at the same speed to arrive on grid together
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#131 - 2015-06-25 11:52:58 UTC
Cypherous wrote:
CCP Logibro wrote:
In a continued effort to make sure that the skill of every member of your fleet counts towards the fight, we are making changes to fleet warp mechanics. We've already had a torrent of feedback, and today CCP Larrikin has a dev blog with more details on what is changing.


And STILL no fix for mixed fleets warp speed adjustment which the current fleet warp system is key to, when are you going to address that issue?

Because it doesn't seem like you read all of the feedback in the last thread, i suggest training reading to level 1 and starting again


How about you work out a way to do it rather than rely upon CCP to do it for you? Herding cats should not be easy.
Cypherous
Liberty Rogues
Aprilon Dynasty
#132 - 2015-06-25 11:54:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Cypherous wrote:
CCP Logibro wrote:
In a continued effort to make sure that the skill of every member of your fleet counts towards the fight, we are making changes to fleet warp mechanics. We've already had a torrent of feedback, and today CCP Larrikin has a dev blog with more details on what is changing.


And STILL no fix for mixed fleets warp speed adjustment which the current fleet warp system is key to, when are you going to address that issue?

Because it doesn't seem like you read all of the feedback in the last thread, i suggest training reading to level 1 and starting again


How about you work out a way to do it rather than rely upon CCP to do it for you? Herding cats should not be easy.


Updated my post with a suggestion, you're welcome ;)
Jezza McWaffle
Outfit 418
Blue Loot Not Included
#133 - 2015-06-25 12:00:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jezza McWaffle
Just a few things I would like to add and I hope you guys read this :)

In terms of wormhole being able to broadcast a bookmark helps alot, however I would like to know what position within the fleet you require to do so, since it would help if anyone in fleet could broadcast a bookmark's location, that way alliances aren't penalized.

I know you haven't released how long it will take to broadcast a location after it is created but for the love of god keep it below 2 minutes please! And also is this time (whatever it will be) be from when the original bookmark is made or from the time you can see it under peoples and places, since the second is very varied.
Since in W-space every combat scenario involves warping to a bookmark or person for warpin, adding an additional time factor just means it will take scanning longer, movement longer, preparation longer and thus fights will become more tedious, and its not like w-space has a million and one fights happening in its overly empty space.

Increase bookmark propagation speed, its been said 1000 times and it will be repeated 1000 times, you are only making things more difficult in W-space without any advantage it might give us. I'm all for a challenge but an unnecessary challenge is just bad. If we need to get somewhere then we almost always need to get there fast!

Give us a way to control our warp speed, since if we want to bring capitals to a battle, say Triage for our logi. We will need to warp it before the rest of the fleet so it lands at the same time, rather than 1 minute behind the fleet, when our feet will be dead. While staggered warping is a viable tactic it will give rise to dictors simply cloaking in the warp direction, the triage will warp first, the moment after warp bubble goes up and sub cap fleet is dragged wherever you want it. To combat this it will mean always warping to a ping 300km above the hole or something, which is just tedious.

More edits:
When the jump changed for WH's was released it was a negative (i till think) idea, however we got higgs riggs so it became slightly easier to role, so we got at least something out of the change.

Whereas here we are losing fleet warp to, however we are gaining broadcast warp to so its not too bad
However we are also getting extra time before a bookmark can be broadcasted, without quicker propogation.

Example of it in action without ping spots:
Ok triage warp first
Triage in warp
Oh they bubbled
Crap
Fleet warp to planet 9 so we can warp back in again
Triage is on grid
We'll be 5 minutes
Bubble in alignment to planet 9
-.-

Wormholes worst badass | Checkout my Wormhole blog

Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#134 - 2015-06-25 12:28:17 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Block warfare should pay for the sins of block warfare, not small gangs.


Bloc. For the love of Dog, the word is bloc. 'Block' warfare would be combat between city blocks, or cement blocks, or children's blocks. Massive alliances of multiple belligerents or potential belligerents are blocs.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#135 - 2015-06-25 12:35:40 UTC
Cypherous wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Cypherous wrote:
CCP Logibro wrote:
In a continued effort to make sure that the skill of every member of your fleet counts towards the fight, we are making changes to fleet warp mechanics. We've already had a torrent of feedback, and today CCP Larrikin has a dev blog with more details on what is changing.


And STILL no fix for mixed fleets warp speed adjustment which the current fleet warp system is key to, when are you going to address that issue?

Because it doesn't seem like you read all of the feedback in the last thread, i suggest training reading to level 1 and starting again


How about you work out a way to do it rather than rely upon CCP to do it for you? Herding cats should not be easy.


Updated my post with a suggestion, you're welcome ;)


Or you could use your noggin and work out warptimes and guesstimate warp times. Frankly I would just fleet warp to a cov ops scout, I have no idea why you people are making this harder than it needs to be.
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#136 - 2015-06-25 12:40:35 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Or you could use your noggin and work out warptimes and guesstimate warp times. Frankly I would just fleet warp to a cov ops scout, I have no idea why you people are making this harder than it needs to be.


Dude. You're better than that. C'mon. Don't make the troll so obvious that you go with the 'use your noggin' nonsense I cut to shreds in the old thread. Just go straight to the 'duh, use a cloaky' and be cool.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#137 - 2015-06-25 12:50:31 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Or you could use your noggin and work out warptimes and guesstimate warp times. Frankly I would just fleet warp to a cov ops scout, I have no idea why you people are making this harder than it needs to be.


Dude. You're better than that. C'mon. Don't make the troll so obvious that you go with the 'use your noggin' nonsense I cut to shreds in the old thread. Just go straight to the 'duh, use a cloaky' and be cool.


Garpa will have a tool for this if it becomes a thingBlink
Intel Channel Broken
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2015-06-25 12:57:38 UTC
CCP:

Have you considered applying changes differently to the various levels?

Namely you can gimp Fleet and Wing warps along the lines of what you are proposing, but leave squad warps more intact.

This would increase fleet member interactivity and make squads like a mini fleet of their own.


0.02 isk

Captain Semper
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#139 - 2015-06-25 13:10:14 UTC
You do this for BOOST snipe fleets?! What the hell!
I didnt saw close bs for a ages! And you talikng about: "well, snipe not so popular"?! Do you even play yourgame?
3/4 of all doctrines ishtars! That shoots over 100km. Is it close? Or mb art-mach close?

Close armor formats is a RARE! Because they just cant fight against shields long-range. MJD not helping at all.

Yes, change is good. But be honest - this is not coz "nobody use snipe".
EVERYBODY use snipe (100+km).
NOBODY use close armor bs, because this is useless bricks that have no chanse vs shield fleets.
Boost this, we want bloodbath with close armor bs because its fun!
Cypherous
Liberty Rogues
Aprilon Dynasty
#140 - 2015-06-25 13:37:13 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Cypherous wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Cypherous wrote:
CCP Logibro wrote:
In a continued effort to make sure that the skill of every member of your fleet counts towards the fight, we are making changes to fleet warp mechanics. We've already had a torrent of feedback, and today CCP Larrikin has a dev blog with more details on what is changing.


And STILL no fix for mixed fleets warp speed adjustment which the current fleet warp system is key to, when are you going to address that issue?

Because it doesn't seem like you read all of the feedback in the last thread, i suggest training reading to level 1 and starting again


How about you work out a way to do it rather than rely upon CCP to do it for you? Herding cats should not be easy.


Updated my post with a suggestion, you're welcome ;)


Or you could use your noggin and work out warptimes and guesstimate warp times. Frankly I would just fleet warp to a cov ops scout, I have no idea why you people are making this harder than it needs to be.


Work out warptimes for a fleet that involves fast tackle and a carrier that doesn't involve you sititng on a gate waiting for ages for the carrier to be far enough away that the rest of the fleet doens't arrive a decade before it, because you'll be sitting there for a while if its a long warp and you might have to fight