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Dev Blog: Fleet Warp Changes - Coming in August Release

First post
Author
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#61 - 2015-06-24 18:59:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Winter Archipelago
CCP Larrikin wrote:

Winter Archipelago wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Along with all existing broadcastable items

Could you elaborate a bit on what you mean by this? Does this mean that, if we broadcast a location (such as a scanned target), the fleet can warp via the broadcast? Or will this be limited to the aforementioned locations that were already warpable?

Or am I missing the mark entirely?

You can't broadcast a probe result as a Warp-to now, so it won't be broadcastable after the changes.

Minchurra wrote:
1. Can I fleet warp my fleet to a fleet member as I can now, or does it require extra steps? (Right click watch list > Warp fleet to)
2. Can I fleet warp my fleet to a personal bookmark I made a couple years ago as I can now, or does it require extra steps? (Right click in space > Warp fleet to)
3. Can I fleet warp my fleet to a personal bookmark, or one belonging to somebody else once it has been broadcast?

1. You can fleet-warp to a fleet member as you can now.
2. You can not fleet-warp to a personal bookmark or probe result. Instead, you can broadcast that bookmark and fleet members can warp themselves. Or a fleet member can warp to the bookmark, then you can fleet-warp to the fleet member.
3. You can't fleet-warp to broadcast bookmarks.

It's still disproportionately harsher on small gangs than large, since we can't always spare the single person (which may be 10-50% of the fleet) as a dedicated prober / scout, and it's still bloody pointless to send the gimped prober ship (again, 10-50% of the fleet) in to be a suicide bookmark. I suppose it's better than it was, though. Now instead of a shotgun to the face, it's just a crowbar to the legs.
SilentAsTheGrave
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#62 - 2015-06-24 19:28:42 UTC
Mostlyharmlesss wrote:
Uh what. I don't understand what you mean with stopping bubbles and slippery petes - They're bubble immune. This change will make them harder to catch(?) and thus making everyone fly them. The only counter to slippery petes are combat probing and landing right ontop of them with scrams. Y'know, the very thing you just made harder.

You are right and wrong.

Yes, Slipper Petes are bubble immune and doing any kind of defensive bubbling or offensive is not helpful.

No, this change does not mean they are unstoppable. You are forgetting that because bombing runs will not be super easy for the casual like now. So that means proper snipping battleships and battle cruisers will be a major threat to Slipper Petes. Petes sport no tank while conventional snipping battleships and battle cruisers do.

Overall this change is very good. Smile
Dominous Nolen
Anomalous Existence
Spatial Instability
#63 - 2015-06-24 19:47:06 UTC
knobber Jobbler wrote:
You could just solve the bombing problem by making them decloak each other again under 2k and put the actual skill back in being a bomber FC and pilot. It would remedy so many of the issues you're trying to solve.


Oh please no... They brought this one to table 6 months+ ago and the decloak changes were to wide reaching outside of bombers. unless they put some way to see cloaked fleet members this would be utter chaos.

@dominousnolen

"Fly dangerously, Fly safe, Fly whatever, just keep Flying." - Lee Blackwood

Dermeisen
#64 - 2015-06-24 19:47:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Dermeisen
+1 a good compromise - you have effectively addressed: the worm-hole contingent and mission runners while excluding the bombers and fleet fights, your stated goal in fact. I hope you stick to a reasonable delay for newly created bookmarks, a few mins + should be ample.

"Not the Boreworms!"

P3ps1 Max
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2015-06-24 19:49:57 UTC
  • This means you cannot fleet-warp to the following: Bookmarks

  • we’ve done some magic on our code and now a wider range of objects will be broadcastable as a Warp-To: Bookmarks.

  • Question
    TigerXtrm
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #66 - 2015-06-24 19:51:02 UTC
    In before tears... oh. Aw Cry

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    Winter Archipelago
    Autumn Industrial Enterprises
    #67 - 2015-06-24 19:51:13 UTC
    Dermeisen wrote:
    +1 a good compromise - you have effective addressed all: the worm-hole contingent

    Like Hell it does. Get out of the NPC corp and try spending some time in a wormhole corp before making such an asinine statement.
    Dermeisen
    #68 - 2015-06-24 19:53:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Dermeisen
    SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
    Mostlyharmlesss wrote:
    Uh what. I don't understand what you mean with stopping bubbles and slippery petes - They're bubble immune. This change will make them harder to catch(?) and thus making everyone fly them. The only counter to slippery petes are combat probing and landing right ontop of them with scrams. Y'know, the very thing you just made harder.

    You are right and wrong.

    Yes, Slipper Petes are bubble immune and doing any kind of defensive bubbling or offensive is not helpful.

    No, this change does not mean they are unstoppable. You are forgetting that because bombing runs will not be super easy for the casual like now. So that means proper snipping battleships and battle cruisers will be a major threat to Slipper Petes. Petes sport no tank while conventional snipping battleships and battle cruisers do.

    Overall this change is very good. Smile


    This comment is really over due thanks!

    "O wonder!
    How many godly doctrines are there here!
    How beauteous they are!

    O brave new world,
    That has such doctrines in it"

    "Not the Boreworms!"

    Dermeisen
    #69 - 2015-06-24 20:01:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Dermeisen
    Winter Archipelago wrote:
    Dermeisen wrote:
    +1 a good compromise - you have effectively addressed all: the worm-hole contingent

    Like Hell it does. Get out of the NPC corp and try spending some time in a wormhole corp before making such an asinine statement.


    Honestly dude you're ad hominem aside I've been playing this game an order of magnitude longer than the age of this toon. That aside why exactly is my comment asinine?

    "Not the Boreworms!"

    Arrendis
    GoonWaffe
    Goonswarm Federation
    #70 - 2015-06-24 20:09:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
    SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
    Mostlyharmlesss wrote:
    Uh what. I don't understand what you mean with stopping bubbles and slippery petes - They're bubble immune. This change will make them harder to catch(?) and thus making everyone fly them. The only counter to slippery petes are combat probing and landing right ontop of them with scrams. Y'know, the very thing you just made harder.

    You are right and wrong.

    Yes, Slipper Petes are bubble immune and doing any kind of defensive bubbling or offensive is not helpful.

    No, this change does not mean they are unstoppable. You are forgetting that because bombing runs will not be super easy for the casual like now. So that means proper snipping battleships and battle cruisers will be a major threat to Slipper Petes. Petes sport no tank while conventional snipping battleships and battle cruisers do.

    Overall this change is very good. Smile


    Except, of course, that Petes lock battleships and ABCs much faster than Battleships and Attack Battlecruisers lock cruisers with no sig bloom. Lock, volley, warp off. Every time you warp off, the FC is repositioning his cloaky prober by warping off in a different direction, refreshing probes, warping back at 70. Fleet warp from similar direction to the cloaky @70-100, et voila! perfect warp-ins via fleet warp, Petes align, lock, volley, repeat.

    Edit to add: also, no, to do a real sniping battlecruiser (ie: an attack battlecruiser), they generally don't have the room for a tank. Too busy mounting tracking computers, sensor boosters, etc.
    Arrendis
    GoonWaffe
    Goonswarm Federation
    #71 - 2015-06-24 20:11:09 UTC
    Dermeisen wrote:

    This comment is really over due thanks!

    "O wonder!
    How many godly doctrines are there here!
    How beauteous they are!

    O brave new world,
    That has such doctrines in it"


    Except for the part where he's pretty much completely wrong.
    Dermeisen
    #72 - 2015-06-24 20:14:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Dermeisen
    Arrendis wrote:
    SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
    Mostlyharmlesss wrote:
    Uh what. I don't understand what you mean with stopping bubbles and slippery petes - They're bubble immune. This change will make them harder to catch(?) and thus making everyone fly them. The only counter to slippery petes are combat probing and landing right ontop of them with scrams. Y'know, the very thing you just made harder.

    You are right and wrong.

    Yes, Slipper Petes are bubble immune and doing any kind of defensive bubbling or offensive is not helpful.

    No, this change does not mean they are unstoppable. You are forgetting that because bombing runs will not be super easy for the casual like now. So that means proper snipping battleships and battle cruisers will be a major threat to Slipper Petes. Petes sport no tank while conventional snipping battleships and battle cruisers do.

    Overall this change is very good. Smile


    Except, of course, that Petes lock battleships and ABCs much faster than Battleships and Attack Battlecruisers lock cruisers with no sig bloom. Lock, volley, warp off. Every time you warp off, the FC is repositioning his cloaky prober by warping off in a different direction, refreshing probes, warping back at 70. Fleet warp from similar direction to the cloaky @70-100, et voila! perfect warp-ins via fleet warp, Petes align, lock, volley, repeat.

    Edit to add: also, no, to do a real sniping battlecruiser (ie: an attack battlecruiser), they generally don't have the room for a tank. Too busy mounting tracking computers, sensor boosters, etc.


    It's a grey area, and perhaps the balance needs a tweak, but doesn't it just bode well you old sourpuss :)

    "Not the Boreworms!"

    Vic Jefferson
    ElitistOps
    Snuffed Out
    #73 - 2015-06-24 20:18:07 UTC
    I don't see why you want to enable more kiting tactics in general here. Fleets in the same system should have a very hard time avoiding each other. Big battles are continuing to produce smaller and smaller body counts because all the kiting doctrines allow it to be so easy to either not engage, or disengage after the fact. It creates boring, one dimensional game play. People want to see big numbers on both sides, and have a fight worth remembering. The toxic range and speed meta is killing this at every level.

    Now obviously, no one really has man-mode brawls any more, especially at large scale...because bombs, and because a kiting fleet will decimate a brawling one, especially in the wake of these changes. Brawling is dead in this game period now really, or at the very least a few steps closer to it.

    You needed a bandaid to deal with bombing runs, and you prescribed instead a game changing frontal lobotomy which still skirts around actually solving bombers.

    Adding more tedium to an already tedious game, where you literally need to work to squeeze the fun out of it, is really only a way to keep masochists subscribed.

    Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

    Arrendis
    GoonWaffe
    Goonswarm Federation
    #74 - 2015-06-24 20:25:12 UTC
    Dermeisen wrote:
    It's a grey area, and perhaps the balance needs a tweak, but doesn't it just bode well you old sourpuss :)


    No, it doesn't. They've just done their pass on T3s, and that pass did nothing about Petes. Just like the Ishtar changes don't even slightly address the idea that you just have to leave your drones w/in 70km of the enemy fleet, and then you can fart off to 150km+, (in the other direction!) still table to target, still able to give those drones 220km away from you orders to shoot new targets, etc.

    The idea that this does anything about Petes - by making it harder to drop your tackle on top of them - is patently ridiculous. If anything, this magnifies the usefulness of Petes, and pretty solidly establishes them as the only snipers worth using.

    SilentAsTheGrave
    Pandemic Horde Inc.
    Pandemic Horde
    #75 - 2015-06-24 20:33:34 UTC
    Arrendis wrote:
    SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
    Mostlyharmlesss wrote:
    Uh what. I don't understand what you mean with stopping bubbles and slippery petes - They're bubble immune. This change will make them harder to catch(?) and thus making everyone fly them. The only counter to slippery petes are combat probing and landing right ontop of them with scrams. Y'know, the very thing you just made harder.

    You are right and wrong.

    Yes, Slipper Petes are bubble immune and doing any kind of defensive bubbling or offensive is not helpful.

    No, this change does not mean they are unstoppable. You are forgetting that because bombing runs will not be super easy for the casual like now. So that means proper snipping battleships and battle cruisers will be a major threat to Slipper Petes. Petes sport no tank while conventional snipping battleships and battle cruisers do.

    Overall this change is very good. Smile


    Except, of course, that Petes lock battleships and ABCs much faster than Battleships and Attack Battlecruisers lock cruisers with no sig bloom. Lock, volley, warp off. Every time you warp off, the FC is repositioning his cloaky prober by warping off in a different direction, refreshing probes, warping back at 70. Fleet warp from similar direction to the cloaky @70-100, et voila! perfect warp-ins via fleet warp, Petes align, lock, volley, repeat.

    Edit to add: also, no, to do a real sniping battlecruiser (ie: an attack battlecruiser), they generally don't have the room for a tank. Too busy mounting tracking computers, sensor boosters, etc.

    So instead of alpha'ing multiple ships before they had to reposition, they can only do one before having to warp. Sounds like they are a less effective doctrine after these changes.

    Petes have ZERO tank fit. None. Proper sniper battleships and battlecruisers have at least a damage control. I'll pull some real numbers of EFT tonight, but I suspect you will stab your head in the sand about that as well. Another thing is CCP has already stated that they are at the plate ready to unleash the nerd bat on Petes if they become out of control. Waiting to see if they will be a problem before needing them is a good call.
    Dermeisen
    #76 - 2015-06-24 20:34:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Dermeisen
    Arrendis wrote:
    Dermeisen wrote:
    It's a grey area, and perhaps the balance needs a tweak, but doesn't it just bode well you old sourpuss :)


    No, it doesn't. They've just done their pass on T3s, and that pass did nothing about Petes. Just like the Ishtar changes don't even slightly address the idea that you just have to leave your drones w/in 70km of the enemy fleet, and then you can fart off to 150km+, (in the other direction!) still table to target, still able to give those drones 220km away from you orders to shoot new targets, etc.

    The idea that this does anything about Petes - by making it harder to drop your tackle on top of them - is patently ridiculous. If anything, this magnifies the usefulness of Petes, and pretty solidly establishes them as the only snipers worth using.



    Oh, tish and pish I believe that we've been given a clear indication that these kind of tweaks may well be on the cards. If all this is not leading to viable battleship doctrine then I'll be as sorely disappointed as you appear to be.

    "Not the Boreworms!"

    Arrendis
    GoonWaffe
    Goonswarm Federation
    #77 - 2015-06-24 20:51:41 UTC
    SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
    So instead of alpha'ing multiple ships before they had to reposition, they can only do one before having to warp. Sounds like they are a less effective doctrine after these changes.

    Petes have ZERO tank fit. None. Proper sniper battleships and battlecruisers have at least a damage control. I'll pull some real numbers of EFT tonight, but I suspect you will stab your head in the sand about that as well. Another thing is CCP has already stated that they are at the plate ready to unleash the nerd bat on Petes if they become out of control. Waiting to see if they will be a problem before needing them is a good call.


    If you can't touch me, it doesn't matter how slowly I have to work - I'll still win.

    CCP's also been saying they had the nerf bat out for Ishtars for... a year now? Even this latest round of changes doesn't really hurt them much at all.
    Shilalasar
    Dead Sky Inc.
    #78 - 2015-06-24 21:05:38 UTC
    This is much better now and will not make wormhole and NPSI life horrible.
    Timed fleetwarps are still a concern though.
    But you should really tell the name of the programmer who made the broadcasting of bookmarks possible. He did something ithin a few days that was on the wishlist for years.
    Eli Stan
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #79 - 2015-06-24 21:07:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Stan
    Vic Jefferson wrote:
    I don't see why you want to enable more kiting tactics in general here. Fleets in the same system should have a very hard time avoiding each other. Big battles are continuing to produce smaller and smaller body counts because all the kiting doctrines allow it to be so easy to either not engage, or disengage after the fact. It creates boring, one dimensional game play. People want to see big numbers on both sides, and have a fight worth remembering. The toxic range and speed meta is killing this at every level.

    Now obviously, no one really has man-mode brawls any more, especially at large scale...because bombs, and because a kiting fleet will decimate a brawling one, especially in the wake of these changes. Brawling is dead in this game period now really, or at the very least a few steps closer to it.

    You needed a bandaid to deal with bombing runs, and you prescribed instead a game changing frontal lobotomy which still skirts around actually solving bombers.

    Adding more tedium to an already tedious game, where you literally need to work to squeeze the fun out of it, is really only a way to keep masochists subscribed.


    Basically, this. ^^ CAS is a brawling sort of NPSI, and we already have enough difficulty getting kiting gangs to engage. Encouraging kiting/sniping even more will simply mean fewer fights. We usually just wait for long-range gangs on the other side of a gate, but if they're smart they won't come into us and decloak within scram range. In which case, we simply go on about our business and ignore them as they have no ability to catch us either, and maybe we run into Clockwork Pineapple or similar brawlers and many explosions and much fun is had by all participants. Or if we do manage to be in a position to catch something, either via fleet warp to a scan probe result which is as often done by a line member as the FC, or some fleet member has a previous bookmark near the hostiles, the kiting gangs often bug out and we're left with only a single uneventful kill.

    On one hand we have game mechanics like weapon timers preventing gate jumping in order to force conflict, while on the other hand we have new game mechanics promoting conflicts from beyond 150 km promoting the ability to disengage... Seems a bit of cognitive dissonance there.

    Kiting gangs have the tools (speed, range) to execute their style of combat - don't take away punting from the toolbox of the brawling gang.

    (I guess it is a luxury for us that we can be a mobile combat force - we don't mind ignoring and bypassing a long-range fleet if we judge we can't get any kills from it. However if we were concerned about a static structure, like a TCU, I guess it'd be different - we'd have to engage regardless in which case, I suppose, kiting/sniping vs kiting/sniping it is. -shrug-)

    Edit - it did occur to me that we would see benefit from being able to broadcast bookmarks. Currently, if we don't have enough time to shuffle a pilot into a Command position, that pilot has to warp themselves to their bookmark and the rest of the fleet then warp themselves to that pilot. Now, everybody will be able to warp at the same time.
    Zappity
    Exit-Strategy
    Unchained Alliance
    #80 - 2015-06-24 21:15:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
    You have several design goals. Why does a single change have to achieve all of them? Why can't you make some changes to tick the bombers and kiting fleet goals and then a separate change to address participation?

    Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.