These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Fleet Warp Changes - Coming in August Release

First post
Author
Zappity
Exit-Strategy
Unchained Alliance
#81 - 2015-06-24 21:23:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
1. What about catching OGB?
2. How does this address the problem brought up in the wormhole soundcloud about the tight timing of catching PvE fleets? The same is true for my hunting style in null.

In both examples you need to get either a fleet or fast tackle onto a probe result very quickly. I understand this is not desirable for large fleets but why is this a problem for small fleets in these scenarios?

What about CPU requirement of Expanded Probe launchers?

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Dermeisen
#82 - 2015-06-24 21:37:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Dermeisen
This reminds me of that old chestnut: hard cases make for bad law - which is to say that laying down a new framework for the health of this game necessarily requires we look beyond the exception case to the broader issues. Slippery petes are over powered but fozzisov is going to change everything. I sill think it would have been better to have retained squad warp and to disallow automating warp for cloaked ships, but this will do.

"Not the Boreworms!"

Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#83 - 2015-06-24 21:47:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Masao Kurata
FearlessLittleToaster wrote:
To fix this problem I suggest a second change to go along with the fleetwarp nerf. Make Covops able to run a prop mod while cloaked, but make their decloak radius expand by the same percentage (or even more) as their speed is boosted. This would enable FCs to use scouts to get ahead of fleets that didn't change direction occasionally, make wrecks and debris on the battlefield meaningful, and generally make somebody who really understood how to fly their ship in space worth their weight in gold. Instead of "align to thing ---> call targets ---> see hostiles coming, laugh, punch warp" FCs would have to be constantly asking themselves "is anyone sneaking up on me right now?"


Wow, that sounds like an incredibly cool role bonus, best gameplay suggestion I've heard all year, although I think to keep it simple it should be a fixed radius when using afterburners and another fixed radius when using microwarpdrives. Perhaps 5000m for afterburners, 15000m for MWD.

EDIT: Ah, but to maintain the status quo on mwd/cloak tactics, this probably shouldn't apply to a cycle started during the cloak fade time or a cycle started before cloaking. On the other hand maybe breaking that for covops would be an acceptable tradeoff.
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#84 - 2015-06-24 22:01:56 UTC
After the addition of bookmark broadcasts this is... probably not game breaking to deploy any more, although it's still concerning, especially since it is not really possible to get into the same warp bubble reliably by any means but a fleet warp. That said I'm actually pretty interested in the potential of bookmark broadcasts independently of the fleet warp change. Can we also broadcast align to a bookmark? If not, please add that.
Naglerr
235MeV
Waterboard Comedy Tour
#85 - 2015-06-24 22:14:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Naglerr
Quote:
As announced: Fleet Commanders, Wing Commanders and Squad Commanders will only be able to fleet-warp to public objects and other fleet members. This means you cannot fleet-warp to the following:

Probe Results
Bookmarks
Mission locations
After feedback and discussion, we’ve done some magic on our code and now a wider range of objects will be broadcastable as a Warp-To:

Mission locations
Bookmarks (newly created bookmarks will have a delay before being broadcastable)
Fleet members
Along with all existing broadcastable items


Quote:
The delay is unrelated to corporate bookmark propagation delay. We'll tell everyone the delay between creating a bookmark and broadcasting it soon! =)


First, legitimate thank you to CCP for considering any change to their plans at all as a result of player feedback. I'm a bit surprised.

Unfortunately this still does not make the proposed changes acceptable for me. You still can't warp to probe results(squad style or broadcast) and you still can't warp to bookmarks without waiting for whatever duration delay they are talking about adding on top of propagation time. Any delay more than the current system makes landing a target much more of an unlikely proposition.

I'd be willing to adapt to the new style of play, but there is one thing that bothers me: CCP has now openly stated that they want to specifically nerf/remove the style of EVE play that I use. I fly in a very small gang with many sets of probes and we land on targets with usually single digit seconds to spare. This change will reduce and remove fights that I am currently getting when it goes live. CCP is intentionally driving this game to be one that makes initiating a fight with tackle landed on the enemy fleet much harder. Without tackle kills will simply not happen as often unless you are in a sniper fleet or something. I guess I'll take this not so subtle hint from CCP that EVE is no longer the game for me.

If/when these changes are reverted/canceled then I'll probably be back. Until then I suppose I'll go do something useful with my new-found free time.
Leeluvv
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#86 - 2015-06-24 22:15:43 UTC
In war you manoeuvre into battle as a formation, not as individuals. Once the fight has begun, tactical manoeuvring becomes important, but not at the expense of the formation's mission. I haven't got a clue what CCP are trying to achieve with these changes, but I'm looking forward to defensive fleets picking off the hostiles as they land, because the opposing force is no longer capable of manoeuvring as a formation.
Zappity
Exit-Strategy
Unchained Alliance
#87 - 2015-06-24 22:18:14 UTC
Naglerr wrote:
CCP has now openly stated that they want to specifically nerf/remove the style of EVE play that I use. I fly in a very small gang with many sets of probes and we land on targets with usually single digit seconds to spare. This change will reduce and remove fights that I am currently getting after the change.

Pretty much sums it up for me. It is frustrating. Leave my gameplay alone.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Naglerr
235MeV
Waterboard Comedy Tour
#88 - 2015-06-24 22:19:36 UTC
I'm not sure why a new thread was created, but the previous related discussion on this topic can be found here(original fleet warp thread): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=429367
KanmanDS
235MeV
Waterboard Comedy Tour
#89 - 2015-06-24 22:28:59 UTC  |  Edited by: KanmanDS
The changes are still completely game breaking for my style of gameplay (which is very engaging for my small gang of pilots, not F1 jockeys). The changes you are making will only make it harder to get in to fights while having no impact on a ship/fleet's ability to get out of a fight. This will decrease the amount of ship explosions in the game.

The reason that fleet meta evolved to 'close range only' is that fights against ships that aren't tackled is a complete waste of time. They can simply warp off when things aren't going their way. Lame. This change encourages fights where ships simply warp away before blowing up.

You are creating a system where ships that do not wish to fight will be very easily capable of evading combat situations, virtually eliminating piracy in the game. If they just go to tacs over gates all the time, it will be impossible to get the fleet to them before they warp again. If they go to safe spots to evade gate camps, it will be impossible for the prober to get tackle ships to the probe results before it warps again.

I have been conducting extensive piracy in HED-GP for about a year. I can assure you that the windows of opportunity to be in the right place at the right time to achieve tackle before it MWDs away or warps off is 3-8 seconds are extremely narrow, and that's with fast-locking, fast-warping frigates. We miss tackle on about 60% of the ships we warp to (entering warp to the bubble they will be stopped in while the target itself is also in warp). That's how narrow the time margin is. We have to predict where they are warping and meet them there. We can't wait to see where they go. Introducing delays of any kind to the fleet mobility ends piracy.

Too much chasing, kiting, sniping, and running around. Not enough Pew Pew.

As for using probers as tackle, I will not be using 3 billion isk worth of Virtue implanted, faction-fit scanner ship with barely 1,000 ehp to tackle a T3 'unscannable' booster for a killmail of maybe 300-700 million. The risk isn't worth the reward.

As stated in my previous comment on the other thread, I will be allowing all of my accounts to lapse, because this change takes away the play-style that I enjoy about this game.
Nanar DeNanardon
Babylon Knights
#90 - 2015-06-24 23:15:49 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:

Minchurra wrote:
1. Can I fleet warp my fleet to a fleet member as I can now, or does it require extra steps? (Right click watch list > Warp fleet to)
2. Can I fleet warp my fleet to a personal bookmark I made a couple years ago as I can now, or does it require extra steps? (Right click in space > Warp fleet to)
3. Can I fleet warp my fleet to a personal bookmark, or one belonging to somebody else once it has been broadcast?

1. You can fleet-warp to a fleet member as you can now.
2. You can not fleet-warp to a personal bookmark or probe result. Instead, you can broadcast that bookmark and fleet members can warp themselves. Or a fleet member can warp to the bookmark, then you can fleet-warp to the fleet member.
3. You can't fleet-warp to broadcast bookmarks.


This is still really annoying for multi-accounts mining fleet as it still deny to warp to a bookmark closed to the belt (200-300km) to warp to a choosen asteroid.
And no, experimented null sec miners don't warp directly into belt.
Flaming Butterfly
Violence is the Answer
Wormhole Society
#91 - 2015-06-24 23:43:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Flaming Butterfly
Another change due to an OP setup that doesn't actually change the OP setup... Great Job -battin a 1000! Jump Range was fine, jumping 5x in a row without delay wasn't fine... Meh.

Set Tengu magnetic Infusion Basin 20% optimal per level to 10%.
Heavier stacking penalty for ECCM so strength is not such that you get immunity with impunity.


You have not solved the ISHTARD issue despite changes to the Ishtard and Sentries

Add "Sentry Hardpoints" so Rattlesnake, Domi, Geddon, Prophecy, Phoon don't have to be sitting ducks but can move taking their sentries with them but now have to think of them as turrets with tracking and eat a little cap to keep them hovering over the shields. Take 30 seconds to recall. Could be good. Neuting/Cap-Out and sentries would detach and sit, but still be controllable.

We're figuring out how use Drifter tech to broadcast our brainwaves to shut down station services -how tough to figure out how to get sentries to do what their guns do?

Other snipers just got their jobs back so EVE isn't just "Capitals and Tengus and Ishtars, OnLine!"... say it like "Lions and Tigers and Bears, O My!"
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2015-06-24 23:43:38 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
To quote The Big Lebowski, "You're killing your father, Larry."

Sorry, Larrikin. You are still off the mark. We have tried to tell you any number of things to make Eve a better, more engaging game. 90+ pages of feedback (although admittedly about 43 pages of that was Baltec trolling).

The challenge in Eve needs to come from the opposing players, not making it harder and more tedious to do basic things in game.

Listen to Reagalan, Arrendis, Alexis Nightwish, Altrue, etc. These people actually know a thing or two about playing Eve in the current environment. They are not blinded by contempt for the average Eve player.

We all would love to see changes that make Eve more exciting - less tedious. Changes that make Eve more fun to play - less of a chore. Your changes are not achieving that goal.

It takes a very big man to admit that he is wrong. No one will think less of you if you come up with a better solution than this halfhearted concession, which does not even come close to addressing the heart of the matter.

As I said before, you want to increase participation... What is the difference between fleet warping the fleet to a scout and fleet warping the fleet to a bookmark? How is that anything other than a tedious, nonsensical role? I've already mastered the art of sitting cloaked 200km off a gate to act as a bookmark.

How is your goal better than making fleets a maximum of fifty players? And or just making it so you can only squad warp. Each of those changes requires many more highly engaged players than your proposal. The former drastically changes the makeup and composition of every large fleet - in a positive direction. It automatically makes Logistics less powerful in large fleets, without huge nerfs to them as a ship class.

How do your changes make sniper doctrines, apart from Slippery Petes, more viable?

How is making each fleet operation take longer to move from Point A to Point B make the game more engaging? I already have to budget 3-4 hours for a single strategic operation, which may or may not result in a fight. That doesn't count the time I spent preparing as an FC.

To paraphrase Altrue, "make the game more fun to play." Not more time-consuming. Not more tedious.



This man hits the nail on the head and sends it to the core of .. Caldari Prime.

You know it's going to be the FC's alt who is the warp-to prober - making him more tired, and the fleet members, more bored.

You know this will increase travel time even more after the Phoebe hack - do you really want to take away that much time from active gameplay and make it less enjoyable for people on limited time budgets?

And you know it will make Petes and OGBs even more uncatchable.

CCP, if you want to increase fleet engagement, please consider allowing broadcast of probe results. Has all the upside of what you want to do, and none of the downsides of your proposed plan.
Montgomery Black
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2015-06-24 23:47:33 UTC
If you could broadcast a probe result as a warp to that will help the WH community alot.

Currently we we use fleet warps to

- Catch site runners at signatures.
Eg combat probe, then fleet/squad warp a sabre on top of the result. Without fleetwarp or a warpto broadcast the site runners will escape 90% of the time if they are actively dscaning. Because by the time u land ur cov-ops on grid at the site and then get a sabre to warp to it, the site runners have seen the probes or the new wh sig you came from and are gone.

We just need the ability to get a sabre or other ship with some reasonable tackle ability on grid quickly. This is not about getting the blob there its just about getting the intial tackle.

WH Merc Services in AU TZ. Citadel defense / offense. More details see forum post - Link

Moraguth
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#94 - 2015-06-25 00:20:40 UTC
My idea is probably absolutely horrible, especially because it is complex compared to what you've decided already.

Determine the types of warping that can be done by the person's position in the fleet along these lines:

Fleet Commander: Can only initiate a fleet warp to permanent celestials, stargates, stations, etc
Wing Commanders: Can do FC warps and to pilots in the fleet (maybe even short term celestials like anoms?)
Squad Commanders: Can do WC warps and to bookmarks, other spots on grid (maybe even probe results?)

Something along these lines make it so that you have to have engaged, active, and competent (possibly FCs in training?) in the various leadership positions throughout the fleet if you want to have the full range of fleet warp options open to you. Push the more tactical capabilities further down the chain of command; leave the more strategic capabilities at the top.

I got a Feature Added!

Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn".  It is "uh-bad-in" dictionary.com/abaddon

2Impact
Angelus.Mortis
Goonswarm Federation
#95 - 2015-06-25 00:56:59 UTC  |  Edited by: 2Impact
Nanar DeNanardon wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:

Minchurra wrote:
1. Can I fleet warp my fleet to a fleet member as I can now, or does it require extra steps? (Right click watch list > Warp fleet to)
2. Can I fleet warp my fleet to a personal bookmark I made a couple years ago as I can now, or does it require extra steps? (Right click in space > Warp fleet to)
3. Can I fleet warp my fleet to a personal bookmark, or one belonging to somebody else once it has been broadcast?

1. You can fleet-warp to a fleet member as you can now.
2. You can not fleet-warp to a personal bookmark or probe result. Instead, you can broadcast that bookmark and fleet members can warp themselves. Or a fleet member can warp to the bookmark, then you can fleet-warp to the fleet member.
3. You can't fleet-warp to broadcast bookmarks.


This is still really annoying for multi-accounts mining fleet as it still deny to warp to a bookmark closed to the belt (200-300km) to warp to a choosen asteroid.

And no, experimented null sec miners don't warp directly into belt.


I'd like to point out that for operating mining operations in null sec, the
Quote:
neuts-in-system-get-out-of-here
strategy usually consists on FLEET WARPING everyone EXACTLY to a POS bookmark, or a fast-dock to station bookmark

Seriously, do you want miners to become even more defenseless? their only option to avoid harm is to get safe as soon as possible, granted that their ability to substain a fight is NONE. I'd gladly substain a small gang fight with my mining ships if ONLY they were capable of it, but they're mere sitting ducks pecking at roids, preys. Like gazelles, they're only chance of survival is warping off. You're going to literally kill thousands of accounts if a mining fleet, be it made of a multiboxer or multi-players, won't be able to get the hell out of harm way as fast as they can now. Do you really want a single real player having to sit in an Orca all the time (we're talking about hours) of a mining op just because fleet warp won't warp that ship to safety anymore? Do you realize he could only do that because this change will kill multiboxing?
Do you realize consequences of this change from the perspective of non-pvpers?
Do you realize that most non-pvpers are non-pvpers because the ship doesn't allow pvp?
Do you think Eve is all about pvp? You should know best that the backbone of everything is made of minerals wich, like it or dislike it, come from rocks mined from miners, and no one does that because it's fun.
Maybe because it's relaxing, but mostly because it's profitable, like ratting.
Putting this change to work means seriously endangering the backbone of all eve economy.
Because let's be serious, you don't buld SC, T and C, and thousands of the rest with fleets of 2-4 ventures....
Jenshae Chiroptera
#96 - 2015-06-25 01:05:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
The compromising proposed changes also suck.
2Impact wrote:
Seriously, do you want miners to become even more defenseless? ....
Yes they do.
EVE is heavily weighted in the predator / attacker's favour.
They keep pushing changes to make it easier but it doesn't matter. They can't code greater intelligence for them.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Miner Hottie
No Vacancies
Wardec Mechanics
#97 - 2015-06-25 01:07:04 UTC
Greygal wrote:
While it is nice that we are finally getting the ability to broadcast stuff we didn't previously have, and this mitigates SOME of the damage these fleet warp changes will do to a huge variety of operations, play styles, and fleets, these changes are still far too drastic, cause much damage, and simply DO NOT ACHIEVE THE STATED GOALS.

The inability to fleet warp to a bookmark does NOT provide ANY additional or new tactical choices or interesting game play options. It destroys many, though.

Broadcast to bookmark is USELESS to an NPSI or other mixed fleet. EDIT: In post below, Larrikin clarified that anyone in fleet will be able to warp to a broadcasted bookmark, regardless of affiliation. I quote the relevant bits of his post below:

CCP Larrikin wrote:

Yes you can "just broadcast the location of the bookmark even if other fleet members don't have it in their bookmark list".

Any member of the fleet will be able to warp to the broadcast, regardless of corporate or alliance membership.

2. You can not fleet-warp to a personal bookmark or probe result. Instead, you can broadcast that bookmark and fleet members can warp themselves. Or a fleet member can warp to the bookmark, then you can fleet-warp to the fleet member.



These changes DO NOT increase fleet member agency or participation or whatever feel-good term you want to use.

These changes simply put EVEN MORE work onto already overworked skirmishers and scouts.

These changes do NOTHING to stop bombing camps, in fact, these changes will encourage even more cloaky sabre bubble camps, more catch and drag bubbles on gates, and even more gate camping, because once everyone in their little gang has the bookmarks, they can be just as effective at bombing as if the FC warped them all.

I'm stunned by the thought that this will somehow bring life back to kiting fleets - are you kidding me? Kiting fleets are EVERYWHERE, they are flavor of the month!

I'm just... ugh... I'm holding back rage and disappointment and an actual fear that the one thing I love to do more than anything else in Eve, which is run NewBro new player roams, is going to be just too much to continue running them. Myself and all of the Redemption Road community will do our best, of course, to adapt, but you are making an already challenging and heavy workload job much more challenging and much more work.

Please, I beg of you, keep fleet warp to bookmark, and instead, make it so there is a penalty for fleet warping, such as fleet lands scattered over a 15-20km range. This actually would provide amazing tactical options and interesting game play choices, while achieving numerous of the stated goals.


Greygal for CSM.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.

Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#98 - 2015-06-25 01:08:05 UTC
2Impact wrote:
I'd like to point out that for operating mining operations in null sec, the
Quote:
neuts-in-system-get-out-of-here
strategy usually consists on FLEET WARPING everyone EXACTLY to a POS bookmark, or a fast-dock to station bookmark

Seriously, do you want miners to become even more defenseless? their only option to avoid harm is to get safe as soon as possible, granted that their ability to substain a fight is NONE. I'd gladly substain a small gang fight with my mining ships if ONLY they were capable of it, but they're mere sitting ducks pecking at roids, preys. Like gazelles, they're only chance of survival is warping off. You're going to literally kill thousands of accounts if a mining fleet, be it made of a multiboxer or multi-players, won't be able to get the hell out of harm way as fast as they can now. Do you really want a single real player having to sit in an Orca all the time (we're talking about hours) of a mining op just because fleet warp won't warp that ship to safety anymore? Do you realize he could only do that because this change will kill multiboxing?
Do you realize consequences of this change from the perspective of non-pvpers?
Do you realize that most non-pvpers are non-pvpers because the ship doesn't allow pvp?
Do you think Eve is all about pvp? You should know best that the backbone of everything is made of minerals wich, like it or dislike it, come from rocks mined from miners, and no one does that because it's fun.
Maybe because it's relaxing, but mostly because it's profitable, like ratting.
Putting this change to work means seriously endangering the backbone of all eve economy.
Because let's be serious, you don't buld SC, T and C, and thousands of the rest with fleets of 2-4 ventures....


I dunno, when my alt-corp mines, we sit a rorqual in one of our pos's in fleet - you can fleet warp to the rorqual.
2Impact
Angelus.Mortis
Goonswarm Federation
#99 - 2015-06-25 01:10:59 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
2Impact wrote:
I'd like to point out that for operating mining operations in null sec, the
Quote:
neuts-in-system-get-out-of-here
strategy usually consists on FLEET WARPING everyone EXACTLY to a POS bookmark, or a fast-dock to station bookmark

Seriously, do you want miners to become even more defenseless? their only option to avoid harm is to get safe as soon as possible, granted that their ability to substain a fight is NONE. I'd gladly substain a small gang fight with my mining ships if ONLY they were capable of it, but they're mere sitting ducks pecking at roids, preys. Like gazelles, they're only chance of survival is warping off. You're going to literally kill thousands of accounts if a mining fleet, be it made of a multiboxer or multi-players, won't be able to get the hell out of harm way as fast as they can now. Do you really want a single real player having to sit in an Orca all the time (we're talking about hours) of a mining op just because fleet warp won't warp that ship to safety anymore? Do you realize he could only do that because this change will kill multiboxing?
Do you realize consequences of this change from the perspective of non-pvpers?
Do you realize that most non-pvpers are non-pvpers because the ship doesn't allow pvp?
Do you think Eve is all about pvp? You should know best that the backbone of everything is made of minerals wich, like it or dislike it, come from rocks mined from miners, and no one does that because it's fun.
Maybe because it's relaxing, but mostly because it's profitable, like ratting.
Putting this change to work means seriously endangering the backbone of all eve economy.
Because let's be serious, you don't buld SC, T and C, and thousands of the rest with fleets of 2-4 ventures....


I dunno, when my alt-corp mines, we sit a rorqual in one of our pos's in fleet - you can fleet warp to the rorqual.


seriously? because.... everyone has that, right?
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#100 - 2015-06-25 01:14:17 UTC
2Impact wrote:

seriously? because.... everyone has that, right?


the orca you're citing could be doing the exact same thing: sitting in the pos where the fleet can be warped to him. Sure, he can't tractor in the jetcans that way, but he can still give boosts and provide safety that way.