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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

First post First post First post
Author
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
#1661 - 2014-08-28 00:12:06 UTC
Who's gonna provide for the T3 production?
Who's gonna farm all the blue loot?

Down the pole podcast "Annhhh"

Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1662 - 2014-08-28 00:13:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
^^ Given these changes shift the balance towards power blocs that I'm guessing is pretty much what will happen and where the t3 production will come from - welcome to nullsec 2.0.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#1663 - 2014-08-28 00:31:02 UTC
Was this a change that was always going to go through no matter what feedback was received?

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

krazyskillz
If we die it's lag
#1664 - 2014-08-28 02:42:45 UTC
After I updated my game I realized I'm living in Null sec with no local.
Kirasten
Perkone
Caldari State
#1665 - 2014-08-28 04:01:24 UTC
corbexx wrote:
Aureus Ahishatsu wrote:
Valenthe de Celine wrote:

Instances where this wasn't done always resulted in significant losses and overwhelming odds that could not be overcome. The reason for this? If we logged in after other entities already scanned and mapped all the holes, our intel was outdated and our efforts to move were simply and easily observed by cloaked scouts. At that point our fleet would be at the mercy of the enemy entities, and slaughters were occur. Closing those holes either forces the fight on our terms, forces the scouts to flee, or results in a faster, less coordinated fight for our enemies. It also prevents enemy backup from arriving from unexpected directions. Again, the times we did not adhere to this, things went very badly.

As to the new changes, last night went something like this:
"Did they just change something? We have 7 wormholes open." After scouting them, the scouts report activity in 2 of them that endangers anyone trying to roll under the new mechanics. Some members reship, follow a chain into lowsec, and go looking for small gang PVP. Rest of the corp (PVE and industry guys) logged out, bored, to go play something else.


I would like to second all of this. The idea that corps are going to risk multiple billions of isk trying to run any sort of PVE with a grand central station of wormholes open is ludicrous. The whole "risk vs. reward" thing is so heavily favored in the risk department it's not even an argument.

Here is how our corp events went last night.
Our scouts reported 5 wormholes 1 to a completely empty c5 one was our static ,1 to nullsec to (goonspace), one to lowsec and one to a c3. Since the c5 was completely empty of towers and scouted we decided to give the try mechanics first on that one. the orca took 20 seconds to get back and jump through. the dread took 50 seconds...... a minute sitting uncloaked in enemy space with a dread is a lifetime. After the streassful hole closer that took 3 times as long as normal we decided we had no way of rolling either the low sec or the null sec. A dread jump would be a guarantee death in either of those systems as it would only take a bat phone and a cyno to catch. Short of 30 battleship jumps which nobody was about to do we literally have no way of closing the WH now.. This all coupled with the increase in WH's in general so now we have wh's respawning at almost the rate we could even close them. End result: everyone cursed CCP starting thinking of ways to get out of the WH and logged off.

I fail to see how any of these changes generated any content considering you just killed an entire game play mechanic for the majority of the people who utilize it.


this is it people are happy with a acceptable about of risk but this is way past what people find acceptable so just wont risk it at all.


I just want to say that you inherited this job at a very difficult time, and many of us feel for you.
Keep your head up.
Syndiaan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1666 - 2014-08-28 04:13:09 UTC
krazyskillz wrote:
After I updated my game I realized I'm living in Null sec with no local.


dont forget, no cynos.
Gunner GzR
Anomalous Existence
Spatial Instability
#1667 - 2014-08-28 04:33:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Gunner GzR
I find it very disappointing That ccp Refused to listen to a entire community within there game and just basically said f you guys were doing it anyway..

They said they wanted feed back and when it was not the Feed back they wanted they just ignored us.

They will not give us the content we are looking for and are making changes to things that did not need changed and will reduce content in w space.

Very sad in my view as a lot of us long term pilots are getting very discouraged with the game.

We scan for hours and find nothing.. we Have chains that are 30-50 wormholes deep and we find nothing. If We do find a wh with a tower there's normally no one logged in or if they are there afk pos spinning.

So ccp has reduced w space content and yet they Buff the one thing that drove most explores From wh space back to hs... to run Incursions..
Why did incursions need a buff. They are at fault for Driving up The Prices on Most market Stuff and Plex (don't get me started on that subject) And reducing Pilots going into wh space to Kill sleepers for isk.

This is just a bad play ccp very bad. All this was is Change for the sake of Change.. Not well thought through nor did you Listen to Your one experts in the fields of Wormholes..The pilots that live there.

W space Pilots are not your Normal Null/LS Pilots..They are very Smart and Creative. We know when we are being ignored and placated by ccp Fozzie. I just Wanted to Shout at him to STFU and stop paying us lip service. It was obvious he did not want to answer real Questions and Was distracted by what ever else he was doing..

Fix this or you will slowly lose more subscription and accounts over the next year or so and further reduce your profits and player base.. Its a domino effect. The more pilots your lose in w space will cause a chain reaction of more w space pilots leaving due to no one left to hunt and fight with..

Change For the Sake of Change is bad Listen to you community CCP We are what make you Money. Remove Local From 0.0 and Low Space Please

Syndiaan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1668 - 2014-08-28 04:37:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Syndiaan
Gunner GzR wrote:
I find it very disappointing That ccp Refused to listen to a entire community within there game and just basically said f you guys were doing it anyway..

They said they wanted feed back and when it was not the Feed back they wanted they just ignored us.

They will not give us the content we are looking for and are making changes to things that did not need changed and will reduce content in w space.

Very sad in my view as a lot of us long term pilots are getting very discouraged with the game.

We scan for hours and find nothing.. we Have chains that are 30-50 wormholes deep and we find nothing. If We do find a wh with a tower there's normally no one logged in or if they are there afk pos spinning.

So ccp has reduced w space content and yet they Buff the one thing that drove most explores From wh space back to hs... to run Incursions..
Why did incursions need a buff. They are at fault for Driving up The Prices on Most market Stuff and Plex (don't get me started on that subject) And reducing Pilots going into wh space to Kill sleepers for isk.

This is just a bad play ccp very bad. All this was is Change for the sake of Change.. Not well thought through nor did you Listen to Your one experts in the fields of Wormholes..The pilots that live there.

W space Pilots are not your Normal Null/LS Pilots..They are very Smart and Creative. We know when we are being ignored and placated by ccp Fozzie. I just Wanted to Shout at him to STFU and stop paying us lip service. It was obvious he did not want to answer real Questions and Was distracted by what ever else he was doing..

Fix this or you will slowly lose more subscription and account over the next year or so and further reduce your profits and player base.. Its a domino effect. The more pilots your lose in w space will cause a chain reaction of more w space pilots leaving due to no one left to hunt and fight with..



Personally I will give them until Archeage releases to either put in modules that significantly reduce this jump distance or they completely scrub the change. Doesn't happen by then I will move on.

Just my 2 isk....
Rahelis
Doomheim
#1669 - 2014-08-28 06:15:27 UTC
Ppl went to WHs to have "their own space".

Ppl even wrote that many time.

That is nothing than a carebears wet dream - farm as you like, control access to "your" space and fly caps any time without danger.
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
Chao3 Alliance
#1670 - 2014-08-28 06:22:08 UTC
Seraph Essael wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Thanks very much for a solid, reasonable and concise response without using veiled personal attacks or trolling.

I'll pass this on directly to development. Smile


Falcon, something else that was brought up at the Wormhole townhall that got kind of pushed to one side. It was recieved somewhat well by the community.

Wormhole mass changes should remain implemented But the mas / spawn should be inverted. Light, fast ships spawn further. Heavier, slower ships spawn closer.

Currently the wormhole fight meta is heavier, armour ships on the hole. Inverting the spawn / mass distance could introduce a new playstyle of faster, kiting ships on wormholes as well as the heavy armour meta. It would also tie in with the new speedy, missile hole changes.

Inversion of the new mass rule is just a gimmick put out there by those that still want to collapse easily.
The whole point of the mass change is to make collapsing more dangerous, and it only does so when the ships with higher mass don't get to jump back immediately.

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project

Hatshepsut IV
Un.Reasonable
#1671 - 2014-08-28 06:36:59 UTC
Saisin wrote:
...The whole point of the mass change is to make collapsing more dangerous, and it only does so when the ships with higher mass don't get to jump back immediately.


Except all the change really does is make it more tedious.

All's that's really dangerous to is CCP's bottom-line as bored people don't stick around long

Public Channel | Un.Welcome

Syndiaan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1672 - 2014-08-28 06:47:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Syndiaan
Hatshepsut IV wrote:
Saisin wrote:
...The whole point of the mass change is to make collapsing more dangerous, and it only does so when the ships with higher mass don't get to jump back immediately.


Except all the change really does is make it more tedious.

All's that's really dangerous to is CCP's bottom-line as bored people don't stick around long


It DOES make it more dangerous, the problem is when two major wormhole corps roll into each other and have uneven fleet comps to make a fun battle, what happens next? Everyone just sits there with their thumbs up their ass and waits for the other group to try and roll so they can just blob them.

So what happens? Nothing.... We all just sit around in a pos or log off and play some other game until the wormhole despawns.

Thanks for the new awesome WH content CCP!
calaretu
Honestly We didnt know
#1673 - 2014-08-28 07:32:41 UTC
Syndiaan wrote:
Hatshepsut IV wrote:
Saisin wrote:
...The whole point of the mass change is to make collapsing more dangerous, and it only does so when the ships with higher mass don't get to jump back immediately.


Except all the change really does is make it more tedious.

All's that's really dangerous to is CCP's bottom-line as bored people don't stick around long


It DOES make it more dangerous, the problem is when two major wormhole corps roll into each other and have uneven fleet comps to make a fun battle, what happens next? Everyone just sits there with their thumbs up their ass and waits for the other group to try and roll so they can just blob them.

So what happens? Nothing.... We all just sit around in a pos or log off and play some other game until the wormhole despawns.

Thanks for the new awesome WH content CCP!



If they are not on wormhole, why not take in a cloaky hauler and anchor drag bubbles? And then when they come to remove them jump sniping nados with mjd. Snipe jump back home and mjd away. Or something else that may actually work. You are acting like its pre-hyperion when you know its not. No pity from me in this matter. Both you and tlc have better pilots than acting like a standoff is the only alternative.
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
Chao3 Alliance
#1674 - 2014-08-28 07:45:57 UTC
calaretu wrote:


If they are not on wormhole, why not take in a cloaky hauler and anchor drag bubbles? And then when they come to remove them jump sniping nados with mjd. Snipe jump back home and mjd away. Or something else that may actually work. You are acting like its pre-hyperion when you know its not. No pity from me in this matter. Both you and tlc have better pilots than acting like a standoff is the only alternative.

Exactly... and even a standoff still allows to farm in the wh while closely watching the neighbor... it is not like the only option is to log off...

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project

Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1675 - 2014-08-28 08:39:26 UTC
Syndiaan wrote:
Hatshepsut IV wrote:
Saisin wrote:
...The whole point of the mass change is to make collapsing more dangerous, and it only does so when the ships with higher mass don't get to jump back immediately.


Except all the change really does is make it more tedious.

All's that's really dangerous to is CCP's bottom-line as bored people don't stick around long


It DOES make it more dangerous, the problem is when two major wormhole corps roll into each other and have uneven fleet comps to make a fun battle, what happens next? Everyone just sits there with their thumbs up their ass and waits for the other group to try and roll so they can just blob them.

So what happens? Nothing.... We all just sit around in a pos or log off and play some other game until the wormhole despawns.

Thanks for the new awesome WH content CCP!

The problem with your argument imo is that whilst I agree you can have a stalemate, in either case it's the aversion to risk that is the problem rather than the mechanics. If you won't engage because of ~the blob waiting to pounce~ then what difference does it make if you can jump in and be in jump range on the other side, besides the fact it means you can disengage at will?

Ultimately you either have subcaps to support your caps in order for them to be able to roll, or you don't. If you presuppose that in any encounter with a major wormhole corp that there's a hidden blob somewhere waiting to pounce then chances are you weren't going to fight anyway. Why would you? These mechanics don't change whether the blob exists or not. Likewise, the other party might think you have a blob waiting too.

Also your argument about two opposing sides sat either side of a wormhole is basically exactly the same predicament that fights in k-space already deal with. The side that is set up on the gate has the advantage of establishing their position, and the other guys who jump in end up in random locations on the other side, potentially out of rep range, etc.

Wormholes are obviously somewhat different in mechanics because of the mass element, and polarisation, but wormholes also have no aggression timers so anyone in range of it can deaggress at any time if they're about to die. The idea that you should be able to jump in a capital solo and - barring another cloaked capital on the other side - be able to jump back whenever you feel like at no risk is out of whack with the rest of Eve where making choices have repercussions - be they aggression timers, or being too far out to escape immediately.
Kirasten
Perkone
Caldari State
#1676 - 2014-08-28 08:50:51 UTC
Durzel wrote:
Syndiaan wrote:
Hatshepsut IV wrote:
Saisin wrote:
...The whole point of the mass change is to make collapsing more dangerous, and it only does so when the ships with higher mass don't get to jump back immediately.


Except all the change really does is make it more tedious.

All's that's really dangerous to is CCP's bottom-line as bored people don't stick around long


It DOES make it more dangerous, the problem is when two major wormhole corps roll into each other and have uneven fleet comps to make a fun battle, what happens next? Everyone just sits there with their thumbs up their ass and waits for the other group to try and roll so they can just blob them.

So what happens? Nothing.... We all just sit around in a pos or log off and play some other game until the wormhole despawns.

Thanks for the new awesome WH content CCP!

The problem with your argument imo is that whilst I agree you can have a stalemate, in either case it's the aversion to risk that is the problem rather than the mechanics. If you won't engage because of ~the blob waiting to pounce~ then what difference does it make if you can jump in and be in jump range on the other side, besides the fact it means you can disengage at will?

Ultimately you either have subcaps to support your caps in order for them to be able to roll, or you don't. If you presuppose that in any encounter with a major wormhole corp that there's a hidden blob somewhere waiting to pounce then chances are you weren't going to fight anyway. Why would you? These mechanics don't change whether the blob exists or not. Likewise, the other party might think you have a blob waiting too.

Also your argument about two opposing sides sat either side of a wormhole is basically exactly the same predicament that fights in k-space already deal with. The side that is set up on the gate has the advantage of establishing their position, and the other guys who jump in end up in random locations on the other side, potentially out of rep range, etc.

Wormholes are obviously somewhat different in mechanics because of the mass element, and polarisation, but wormholes also have no aggression timers so anyone in range of it can deaggress at any time if they're about to die. The idea that you should be able to jump in a capital solo and - barring another cloaked capital on the other side - be able to jump back whenever you feel like at no risk is out of whack with the rest of Eve where making choices have repercussions - be they aggression timers, or being too far out to escape immediately.


Mass is still the issue. Even jumping one cap into the hole under the old mechanics was dangerous. Several corps made a habit of jumping a cap through before you knew they were there and cloaking it. Then as soon as your cap jumped through, they would jump back to trap you on their side. Between the spawn ranges and the fact that a wormhole doesn't populate until something jumps through it, jumping a cap into a hole with active people means your cap is as good as lost.

Deliberately flushing billions down the drain is not courage. Choosing not to flush it down the drain is not cowardice.
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
#1677 - 2014-08-28 09:40:59 UTC
all the theory crafting in the world isnt going to magically force people to stay or move into into whs if its just plain not worth it. the numbers will speak for themselves.

besides, the graphs ccp gave us showed that c6 space far outstripped the other classes of wormholes combined in regards to npc kills. wouldnt it make far more sense to just focus on cap escalations if whspace was *actually* causing an econimic problem?

nullsec so far outstrips wh space in isk generation its hilarious. the isk in any one hole is finite at any one point and its impossible to cap escalate farm your static because you can only get one dread in before you lose the ability to bring them back.

the isk in an upgraded nullsec system is infinate and instantly accessible. no setup time, safe local, blue donut, etc etc etc.

but no please go on on how whs are the problem.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Gosti Kahanid
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1678 - 2014-08-28 10:06:19 UTC
I live with a small WH-Corp living in a C5. At the moment we have 10 Pilots logged in max.

For the last few days we experimented how to close C6 and 0.0-WHs with less risk as possible. To close those, we use a Dread, an Orca and a Battleship. Both Dread and Orca are now fitted with 3-4 Overdrives and a 100MN MWD.
It´s important that the Dread jumps first so he doesn´t spawn more than 15km away from the WH. With its MWD on it flies about 400m/s so he reaches jumprange in about 30 seconds. Orca, as a smaller/lighter Ship is even faster.

So after adapting a little bit we can still close a WH in about 30 Seconds. I really don´t see the big problem here. Ok, if someone was already lurking at a WH then you have a problem with your Dread 10km away from jumprange, but this was already a risk before the change. The only difference now ist that the Dread will be trapped on the other side, but this is the Risk when living in a WH...
Nox52
Pterygopalatine
#1679 - 2014-08-28 10:12:44 UTC
Gosti Kahanid wrote:
I live with a small WH-Corp living in a C5. At the moment we have 10 Pilots logged in max.

For the last few days we experimented how to close C6 and 0.0-WHs with less risk as possible. To close those, we use a Dread, an Orca and a Battleship. Both Dread and Orca are now fitted with 3-4 Overdrives and a 100MN MWD.
It´s important that the Dread jumps first so he doesn´t spawn more than 15km away from the WH. With its MWD on it flies about 400m/s so he reaches jumprange in about 30 seconds. Orca, as a smaller/lighter Ship is even faster.

So after adapting a little bit we can still close a WH in about 30 Seconds. I really don´t see the big problem here. Ok, if someone was already lurking at a WH then you have a problem with your Dread 10km away from jumprange, but this was already a risk before the change. The only difference now ist that the Dread will be trapped on the other side, but this is the Risk when living in a WH...



Am I the only one who thinks of dreads with overdrives and MWDs and it just doesn't feel right on the inside?


(other than the fack that dreads with overdrives will die pretty fast....)
Enthropic
Perkone
Caldari State
#1680 - 2014-08-28 10:41:12 UTC
Gosti Kahanid wrote:
I live with a small WH-Corp living in a C5. At the moment we have 10 Pilots logged in max.

For the last few days we experimented how to close C6 and 0.0-WHs with less risk as possible. To close those, we use a Dread, an Orca and a Battleship. Both Dread and Orca are now fitted with 3-4 Overdrives and a 100MN MWD.
It´s important that the Dread jumps first so he doesn´t spawn more than 15km away from the WH. With its MWD on it flies about 400m/s so he reaches jumprange in about 30 seconds. Orca, as a smaller/lighter Ship is even faster.

So after adapting a little bit we can still close a WH in about 30 Seconds. I really don´t see the big problem here. Ok, if someone was already lurking at a WH then you have a problem with your Dread 10km away from jumprange, but this was already a risk before the change. The only difference now ist that the Dread will be trapped on the other side, but this is the Risk when living in a WH...


true, one can adapt. Ask yourself however, what is the benefit of the change then really? All it does is making it more time consuming and annoying.

Its not you get a fight out of it in case you get caught pants down with your nano-nag slowboating back to the wh...
would be a fast and easy, yet for you painful gank with a hefty (and retardedly stupid looking) lossmail on your side.

gf?

no.