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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

First post First post First post
Author
corbexx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1641 - 2014-08-27 20:17:51 UTC
Aureus Ahishatsu wrote:
Valenthe de Celine wrote:

Instances where this wasn't done always resulted in significant losses and overwhelming odds that could not be overcome. The reason for this? If we logged in after other entities already scanned and mapped all the holes, our intel was outdated and our efforts to move were simply and easily observed by cloaked scouts. At that point our fleet would be at the mercy of the enemy entities, and slaughters were occur. Closing those holes either forces the fight on our terms, forces the scouts to flee, or results in a faster, less coordinated fight for our enemies. It also prevents enemy backup from arriving from unexpected directions. Again, the times we did not adhere to this, things went very badly.

As to the new changes, last night went something like this:
"Did they just change something? We have 7 wormholes open." After scouting them, the scouts report activity in 2 of them that endangers anyone trying to roll under the new mechanics. Some members reship, follow a chain into lowsec, and go looking for small gang PVP. Rest of the corp (PVE and industry guys) logged out, bored, to go play something else.


I would like to second all of this. The idea that corps are going to risk multiple billions of isk trying to run any sort of PVE with a grand central station of wormholes open is ludicrous. The whole "risk vs. reward" thing is so heavily favored in the risk department it's not even an argument.

Here is how our corp events went last night.
Our scouts reported 5 wormholes 1 to a completely empty c5 one was our static ,1 to nullsec to (goonspace), one to lowsec and one to a c3. Since the c5 was completely empty of towers and scouted we decided to give the try mechanics first on that one. the orca took 20 seconds to get back and jump through. the dread took 50 seconds...... a minute sitting uncloaked in enemy space with a dread is a lifetime. After the streassful hole closer that took 3 times as long as normal we decided we had no way of rolling either the low sec or the null sec. A dread jump would be a guarantee death in either of those systems as it would only take a bat phone and a cyno to catch. Short of 30 battleship jumps which nobody was about to do we literally have no way of closing the WH now.. This all coupled with the increase in WH's in general so now we have wh's respawning at almost the rate we could even close them. End result: everyone cursed CCP starting thinking of ways to get out of the WH and logged off.

I fail to see how any of these changes generated any content considering you just killed an entire game play mechanic for the majority of the people who utilize it.


this is it people are happy with a acceptable about of risk but this is way past what people find acceptable so just wont risk it at all.
Egg McMuff
#1642 - 2014-08-27 20:32:32 UTC
Wormhole's are now a mess, cheers CCP
Tivika
Deadspace Knights
#1643 - 2014-08-27 20:39:03 UTC
This patch So far has been such a let down. As a Wormhole dweller it is seriously going to kill any enjoyment I had for this game.

Points:
- The Mass / distance change is going to make PVE in a WH a thing of the past.
a. Nobody is going to Risk a Billion isk Capital ship closing a C5/C6 k162 anymore its too ridiculous
b. Not every corp can do 20 BS jumps through every k162 it is too time consuming
c. This has made every k162 to null a turkey shoot. If I was a Null Sec group I would Actively look for C5/C6 whs leading to the Big WH corps and sit a cloaked interdictor with cyno on it and wait for the free targets. If they use a Dread you can re-enforce till the cows come home, the c5/c6 guys used half the mass jumping through one-way and can't cap support anymore.

- already seen 3 WH corps leave C5 space and that's just personally through our C2 This is BAD! less active space is Horrible for Site spawning. If no one lives in the WH or PVE's the site the sites will collect in Dead systems and C5/C6 "large" corps are going to run out of home sites to Cap escalate. No sites no isk

And for BOB's Sake you Null sec people that DON'T understand WH life here is the Equivalent breakdown of what the Devs just did to WHs.


- No LOCAL chat at ALL
- Add 3-4 stargates connections to ALL nullsec systems
- No Cynos force all Caps to use stargates
- No Ratting all rats and belts removed
- No Pirate upgrades anymore all removed / live or die by the random ded /plex sites

If the Devs did all that to Null sec this Patch would you null Sec peeps be saying Adapt or GTFO?
Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1644 - 2014-08-27 20:56:42 UTC
corbexx wrote:

this is it people are happy with a acceptable about of risk but this is way past what people find acceptable so just wont risk it at all.


Just a few general comments none of which is particularly a reaction to anything you've said. I think the dichotomy between farmer and pvper is overdone. Everyone farms somewhere, sometime and in some way, or they buy plex and outsource the farming to someone else. W-space offers one opportunity to farm where you also find PVP - if this relationship starts breaking you end up with no reason to live in lots of w-space - if this is a side effect of trying to screw over farmers, then it is the wrong fix for the problem such as it is.

At some stage some of those smaller corps (especially in the lower end holes) are going to look at risk/reward, say screw that and go off and run incursions on alts or chain forsaken hubs in null and make isk some other way in order to fund PVP whether that be in w-space or elsewhere.


Syndiaan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1645 - 2014-08-27 21:07:07 UTC
Tivika wrote:
This patch So far has been such a let down. As a Wormhole dweller it is seriously going to kill any enjoyment I had for this game.

Points:
- The Mass / distance change is going to make PVE in a WH a thing of the past.
a. Nobody is going to Risk a Billion isk Capital ship closing a C5/C6 k162 anymore its too ridiculous
b. Not every corp can do 20 BS jumps through every k162 it is too time consuming
c. This has made every k162 to null a turkey shoot. If I was a Null Sec group I would Actively look for C5/C6 whs leading to the Big WH corps and sit a cloaked interdictor with cyno on it and wait for the free targets. If they use a Dread you can re-enforce till the cows come home, the c5/c6 guys used half the mass jumping through one-way and can't cap support anymore.

- already seen 3 WH corps leave C5 space and that's just personally through our C2 This is BAD! less active space is Horrible for Site spawning. If no one lives in the WH or PVE's the site the sites will collect in Dead systems and C5/C6 "large" corps are going to run out of home sites to Cap escalate. No sites no isk

And for BOB's Sake you Null sec people that DON'T understand WH life here is the Equivalent breakdown of what the Devs just did to WHs.


- No LOCAL chat at ALL
- Add 3-4 stargates connections to ALL nullsec systems
- No Cynos force all Caps to use stargates
- No Ratting all rats and belts removed
- No Pirate upgrades anymore all removed / live or die by the random ded /plex sites

If the Devs did all that to Null sec this Patch would you null Sec peeps be saying Adapt or GTFO?


I saw one corp moving out as well. I probably would find some more moving out but we cant roll our static because we are connected to another big corp we dont have the numbers to fight and each of us knows whoever tries to roll it is going to get their rolling ships blobbbed. So we are just orbiting our pos's for the rest of the day.
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1646 - 2014-08-27 21:08:34 UTC
Interesting side note... as W-space is depopulating, T3 values are going to spike due to a lack of materials and manufacturers. Save your T3s, fly dirt cheap T2s instead until this mess gets sorted. Who knows, they may turn into rarities after a while.

Necharo Rackham wrote:
corbexx wrote:

this is it people are happy with a acceptable about of risk but this is way past what people find acceptable so just wont risk it at all.

Just a few general comments none of which is particularly a reaction to anything you've said. I think the dichotomy between farmer and pvper is overdone. Everyone farms somewhere, sometime and in some way, or they buy plex and outsource the farming to someone else. W-space offers one opportunity to farm where you also find PVP - if this relationship starts breaking you end up with no reason to live in lots of w-space - if this is a side effect of trying to screw over farmers, then it is the wrong fix for the problem such as it is.

At some stage some of those smaller corps (especially in the lower end holes) are going to look at risk/reward, say screw that and go off and run incursions on alts or chain forsaken hubs in null and make isk some other way in order to fund PVP whether that be in w-space or elsewhere.


Many of those smaller corps have already made the decision to leave. Some of them may be gone permanently, from W-space and the game. Losing the last frontier of space we could stake a claim in can call our own means losing our game. I am not okay with being forced to rent from some Null holding corp, paying my effort to pay their SOV bill.

W-space was not great, but it worked. It was working better than any other area of the game. Now it doesn't. I hope someone is taking note of that. If changes don't roll back before my subs run out, I think I may be done with EVE for good. Betrayal factor feels a little too high.

I once regarded EVE as the best example of a game that works through interaction with it's players. Guess you showed me a thing or three.
Tivika
Deadspace Knights
#1647 - 2014-08-27 21:13:35 UTC
Necharo Rackham wrote:
corbexx wrote:

this is it people are happy with a acceptable about of risk but this is way past what people find acceptable so just wont risk it at all.


Just a few general comments none of which is particularly a reaction to anything you've said. I think the dichotomy between farmer and pvper is overdone. Everyone farms somewhere, sometime and in some way, or they buy plex and outsource the farming to someone else. W-space offers one opportunity to farm where you also find PVP - if this relationship starts breaking you end up with no reason to live in lots of w-space - if this is a side effect of trying to screw over farmers, then it is the wrong fix for the problem such as it is.

At some stage some of those smaller corps (especially in the lower end holes) are going to look at risk/reward, say screw that and go off and run incursions on alts or chain forsaken hubs in null and make isk some other way in order to fund PVP whether that be in w-space or elsewhere.





A-Men brother, Everyone living in WH space Pvp's weather they want to or not. But even the Pure PVP eve player has to get his isk from somewhere, PVP does not provide the internet space ships.
VeronicaKell
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1648 - 2014-08-27 21:15:38 UTC
Well. This **** sucks. Can Confirm.
VeronicaKell
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1649 - 2014-08-27 21:16:35 UTC
We are all sitting here in a Mexican stand off with TLC because neither side will roll and neither side trusts the other's numbers enough to ensure a blob doesn't happen.
Luft Reich
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1650 - 2014-08-27 21:24:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Luft Reich
Dearest CCP,

I have been watching the forums and reading peoples responses and your reaction to this fiasco since day one. Before I get into the details about what I can think could be done, since apparently you would enjoy some constructive feedback because you claim there has been none, which is dim whited and entirely untrue, I would like to tell you a bit about my self to show I have some experience in the topic, something you have not.

I have been a member of WH space for about two years, I started when I only had a few million skill points and have lived here ever since that point. I've been through a number of corps experiencing small gang and large fleet wormhole combat. In real life I have a Doctorate in Social Psychology, the study of groups of people, their reactions to topics, etc etc. I am also a businessman, who worked very closely with my fellow businessmen to found what is now a Multi-Million dollar law firm. Thus I feel I have some experience in trying to help solve this fiasco you have dug yourself into.

First I would like to address you CCP on your behavior on these forums that were built on the foundation of encouraging player feedback in this player driven game, something your CEO and the entire CCP Team prides itself on. But, every time CCP Fozzie or even worse, CCP Falcon, a community manager, posts in this thread it shows myself and every other player the exact opposite of what CCP prides itself on, a player driven game where CCP listens to it's players. You request we post in another feedback thread as if this thread is not good enough, or the thread that pre-dated this one is not sufficient enough to satisfy you. CCP is a business, your actions reflect how the public look upon you, and if an outsider would open up the Wormhole sub-thread and look at how CCP was responding to the thread, would he or she be satisfied and think to himself, "Man, those CCP Dev's, they really do work for the players". Of course they wouldn't, and you must remember this.

CCP, you ask us to be professional on the forums. Some of us of course break these rules, using bad language, racist remarks, of course that is unacceptable, but players getting angry at CCP and calling members of CCP out for the lack of feedback is completely understandable. Locking, banning, closing, removing posts critiquing the actions by CCP only shows weakness in the eyes of the players as you clearly can not handle feedback, much like a child.

"I might be a horrible troll on the forums sometimes" -CCP Falcon

That is CCP Falcon saying he is a troll, the community manager saying he is a troll. One must remember this is a business, and saying you are a troll....what do you think that makes us as players think of you as, or how we view you? Not a professional look.

Moving on from the lack of good presentation to the public audience in the forums, lets delve into what we can do ingame, we being CCP. Again, CCP Falcon states that he and many others play the game. I find this believable, but definitely not in any active wormhole space groups. The changes that hit Tranquility in Hyperion is concrete evidence of this. CCP, I understand what you are trying to do, I really do. CCP Fozzie has said it before, I know you guys had good intentions to create more content with the mass change and the frigate wormholes, but when your customers say No! you have to throw away that idea (or critique it to make customers happy) because in the end we are the customers and the customers should always come first.

So I have talked alot, but where is the solution? Remove it, completely. You should not feel obligated to fill the void of a bad idea with another feature. You are thinking to yourself right now, "We spent long hours designing this" well I'll work for days to prepare a report for lawyers on the best strategy to win a case, if they say no, I first try to convince them that my proposal will work, but if they still don't agree I have to rewrite my proposal because that's what they are paying to me to do.

One last thing before I end this painful report. I want numbers, stats, graphs of all sorts on how this change has affected wormhole space. If you CCP have the audacity to ignore the players for this long, atleast show us where you are coming from with the fanfare of "This change is for the better". Because as of right now, that fanfare of great change has yet to show itself. I want to see real results, hard numbers on everything you planned to affect with this change. If you projected Frigate kills to go up, I want to see a graph on it. Expected PvE activity to go down? Want to see numbers on it. Things like this CCP help ensure that we as customers are not in the dark as you at CCP develop these new features. At this moment, you at CCP have alot of talk, I keep hearing about this fanfare of greatness, but it's more like a musical illiterate person telling me about a great band that I have never heard of before. So give us some numbers, good or bad, we should at least be entitled to that.

I expect this to be struck down, I welcome this as it only reinforces that CCP is worried.

Have a great day!
-Luft

ISD Cyberdyne liked your forum post

VeronicaKell
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1651 - 2014-08-27 21:33:02 UTC
Luft Reich wrote:
Dearest CCP,

I have been watching the forums and reading peoples responses and your reaction to this fiasco since day one. Before I get into the details about what I can think could be done, since apparently you would enjoy some constructive feedback because you claim there has been none, which is dim whited and entirely untrue, I would like to tell you a bit about my self to show I have some experience in the topic, something you have not.

I have been a member of WH space for about two years, I started when I only had a few million skill points and have lived here ever since that point. I've been through a number of corps experiencing small gang and large fleet wormhole combat. In real life I have a Doctorate in Social Psychology, the study of groups of people, their reactions to topics, etc etc. I am also a businessman, who worked very closely with my fellow businessmen to found what is now a Multi-Million dollar law firm. Thus I feel I have some experience in trying to help solve this fiasco you have dug yourself into.

First I would like to address you CCP on your behavior on these forums that were built on the foundation of encouraging player feedback in this player driven game, something your CEO and the entire CCP Team prides itself on. But, every time CCP Fozzie or even worse, CCP Falcon, a community manager, posts in this thread it shows myself and every other player the exact opposite of what CCP prides itself on, a player driven game where CCP listens to it's players. You request we post in another feedback thread as if this thread is not good enough, or the thread that pre-dated this one is not sufficient enough to satisfy you. CCP is a business, your actions reflect how the public look upon you, and if an outsider would open up the Wormhole sub-thread and look at how CCP was responding to the thread, would he or she be satisfied and think to himself, "Man, those CCP Dev's, they really do work for the players". Of course they wouldn't, and you must remember this.

CCP, you ask us to be professional on the forums. Some of us of course break these rules, using bad language, racist remarks, of course that is unacceptable, but players getting angry at CCP and calling members of CCP out for the lack of feedback is completely understandable. Locking, banning, closing, removing posts critiquing the actions by CCP only shows weakness in the eyes of the players as you clearly can not handle feedback, much like a child.

"I might be a horrible troll on the forums sometimes" -CCP Falcon

That is CCP Falcon saying he is a troll, the community manager saying he is a troll. One must remember this is a business, and saying you are a troll....what do you think that makes us as players think of you as, or how we view you? Not a professional look.

Moving on from the lack of good presentation to the public audience in the forums, lets delve into what we can do ingame, we being CCP. Again, CCP Falcon states that he and many others play the game. I find this believable, but definitely not in any active wormhole space groups. The changes that hit Tranquility in Hyperion is concrete evidence of this. CCP, I understand what you are trying to do, I really do. CCP Fozzie has said it before, I know you guys had good intentions to create more content with the mass change and the frigate wormholes, but when your customers say No! you have to throw away that idea (or critique it to make customers happy) because in the end we are the customers and the customers should always come first.

So I have talked alot, but where is the solution? Remove it, completely. You should not feel obligated to fill the void of a bad idea with another feature. You are thinking to yourself right now, "We spent long hours designing this" well I'll work for days to prepare a report for lawyers on the best strategy to win a case, if they say no, I first try to convince them that my proposal will work, but if they still don't agree I have to rewrite my proposal because that's what they are paying to me to do.

One last thing before I end this painful report. I want numbers, stats, graphs of all sorts on how this change has affected wormhole space. If you CCP have the audacity to ignore the players for this long, atleast show us where you are coming from with the fanfare of "This change is for the better". Because as of right now, that fanfare of great change has yet to show itself. I want to see real results, hard numbers on everything you planned to affect with this change. If you projected Frigate kills to go up, I want to see a graph on it. Expected PvE activity to go down? Want to see numbers on it. Things like this CCP help ensure that we has customers are not in the dark as you at CCP develop these new features. At this moment, you at CCP have alot of talk, I keep hearing about this fanfare of greatness, but it's more like a musical illiterate person telling me about a great band that I have never heard of before. So give us some numbers, good or bad, we should at least be entitled to that.

I expect this to be struck down, I welcome this as it only reinforces that CCP is worried.

Have a great day!
-Luft



What this guy said.
Slicr
#1652 - 2014-08-27 21:41:38 UTC
Durzel wrote:
People will deal with this like they've dealt with everything else. People who quit will be replaced by others more accepting of the change.

The whole "sensor overlay will kill PvP' thing was supposed to be the killing blow for wormholes, and - guess what - it wasn't. Nor will this be.

Granted it affects people's established ways of playing the game, and negatively affects some more than others, but that's what wormholes are about - the unknown. The fact fixed statics, and rage-rolling, etc was ever possible is to be honest a failure on the part of CCP in not designing a system that was robust enough to keep things random. There's very little random about W-space now, which is why (previously at least) people critted or collapsed holes solo with alts just so they could bear with near total safety.

People who wouldn't fight if they saw you are unchanged by this new behaviour, so any argument about lost fights is imo misplaced. Previously if you rolled into someone and they don't want to fight you they would either POS up or log off (no change) or collapse you out - again in relative safety. Now they can't do that, so they either give up bearing for the day if you roll into them - or they fight. Some of them might just risk it, especially if they think you've gone away....

People being able to roll womholes every 60 seconds or so with just themselves and an alt or two while the rest of the corp twiddles their thumbs because they can't even contribute anything of value was always broken. And as for "small corps/one man bands in high class wormholes", why are they entitled to live there without needing to commit anything?

edit: Also - people talking about "rolling on my own" with capitals completely po-faced? If you talked about rolling around in caps in null with no support and why it should be risk free you'd be laughed off the forums, but because it's w-space it should be allowed?


Well written - thanks for posting this

I believe in being Pro-Active as Opposed to Reactive. Reactive tends to be more costly in time and money.

Egg McMuff
#1653 - 2014-08-27 21:47:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Egg McMuff
So what's next for wormhole space??? it is like a swiss fecking cheese... more holes than golf course in each system.

I can't believe you have done this to wormhole space but hey on a positive note you should have more people paying for plex rather than using isk (cus we wont be running sites half as much) Big clap for this magnificent patch now you can all stand up at the next meeting and turn around and pat each other on the back....
Vorick Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1654 - 2014-08-27 22:25:23 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Quote:
Over the years I have seen some players drawn some unfortunate and incorrect conclusions from this story. The belief that CCP is angry about this unintended behavior or that we are trying to somehow eject players from wormhole space to bring it more in line with the original pre-release vision. This belief couldn’t be further from the truth and betrays a regrettable misunderstanding about how CCP approaches ‘unintended’ player behavior in EVE.

-CCP Fozzie

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/into-the-known-unknowns/?_ga=1.86357528.1232967168.1369607985

Fact: Wormhole space is depopulating. Most corps now consider it too risky to live in WH space. No one is willing to roll holes anymore, people are being forced out of WHs.


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
Blood Spine
Infinity Engine
Battle Brothers Legiones Astartes
#1655 - 2014-08-27 22:34:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Blood Spine
Right just a mid sized corporations view on the Wormhole changes.

We live in a C5 today it has been Swiss cheese all day which is nice for PvP reasons so no problems yet......
Site running time has rolled around again hurray! now its time to collapse all these wormholes two Nulls two C4s a C3 and a C2 so Completely forgetting about the Jump Mass changes I grab my orca and go to work.

Land at 0 jump through whats this? I laned 12K off the hole took forever to slow boat back by the time i got within jump range I thought bugger this **** i'm gonna go get a BS so

1st actual point Orcas are now pretty useless as a T2 hauler can hold nearly as much and is safe to use also orcas will no longer be used for hole rolling as the time it takes to make two jumps negates the time saving of using the orca. (Yes i know they can mining boost but that's all there good for now)

So we GRIND down the rest of the wormholes and then whats this again?

MORE sodding wormholes which takes us even longer to roll and this is even before the boring 2-3 hours site running needed to afford PEW.

Then after all hole are gone we cant be bothered to GRIND even more so we all LOGGED OFF.

Basicly I would like to give CCP a bloody great sodding clap for buggering wormholes beyond belief

Also no me and my corp wont be moving out of wormhole space as we are going to stay here out of shear SPITE for CCP obviously making wormhole impossible to live in, something which I'm starting to think they did on purpose as all of the feedback from wormholes on this issue has been bloody well ignored.
Sirinda
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
#1656 - 2014-08-27 23:19:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Sirinda
These changes make me glad my corp was forced to evac a couple of months back due to inactivity and RL obligations.

The smaller wspace entities will probably give up and the larger ones will put up with it until their patience has been worn thin by them.

Considering wspace has never really been densely populated, this change isn't a step in the wrong direction, it's a rocket assisted takeoff and subsequent crash landing in it.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1657 - 2014-08-27 23:23:52 UTC
The acrobatics closing wormholes tonight were hilarious, but very very wrong, a naglfar should not be able to do that.

Doesn't unduly affect us other than its going to get old and boring very very fast but I can see a lot of smaller entities definitely moving out due to this.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1658 - 2014-08-27 23:25:06 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
We truly need a way for CCP to withdraw these changes, whilst retaining some degree of face and self respect.

Enough has been said regarding our opinions of the people involved, and persisting with that will not allow a graceful withdrawal, it would be just encouraging them to leave things and keep their head down, so as they are not more exposed.

What has happened cannot be undone, regarding the relationship damage. But it can be reduced.
Currently, with every hour it is increasing.

However accepting that the changes have releases an absolute storm of unforeseen consequences, it is essential that this is dealt with before the damage to wormhole space and it's residents, becomes permanent.

Once people are gone and abandoned their pos and self destructed the ships it is impossible or to difficult to move out, they will never return.
It's not exactly like people are queuing to move in is it?

If CCP admit that things have turned out unexpectedly, and roll things back. Fast, then they will gain a modicum of respect back.

I hope that everyone understands that even well meaning behaviour and the best thought out plans, can be a mistake sometimes, we are all human, and all fallible.

None of us is without fault in this world.

If they are courageous enough to admit that things have not worked as planned, and roll things back, then we should have the decency to appreciate that, and help them get things right next time, we have an excellent CSM rep, and experienced and knowledgeable players to help if they ask AND listen with an open mind.

Hopefully they will act courageously.
Hopefully soon.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

VeronicaKell
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1659 - 2014-08-27 23:50:57 UTC
VeronicaKell wrote:
We are all sitting here in a Mexican stand off with TLC because neither side will roll and neither side trusts the other's numbers enough to ensure a blob doesn't happen.


....and I died.
Rei Moon
Perkone
Caldari State
#1660 - 2014-08-28 00:11:12 UTC
Buds you should know better. If we can't live in wspace anymore (since we won't be able to fund our nasty pvp habits)
Who will come to live where we used to?
Who is being benefited by see-see-pee?

Down the pole podcast "Annhhh"