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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

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Author
Iku Nergal
Unity of Suns
Warped Intentions
#1621 - 2014-08-27 15:05:57 UTC
Normally, I don't give feedback to particular changes, because it doesn't affect me personally. This is normally the case because I do my business in W-Space, and not K-Space where 99% of the changes have been made up to this point.

My current status & background

I am in a small corp and currently living in a C3/LS system. We selected this type of Wormhole because of the small-gang PVP we can get with our static connection whilst having the opportunity to easily get to K-Space if needed. I have lived in all class of WH's from C1-C4. no C5's or 6's. I have done Hi-Sec missions, incursions, NullSec Coalition warfare, and Low-Sec operations coupled with PvE/PvP content in all forms mentioned above. I have specifically chosen Wormhole content vs all others for multiple reasons including the dynamic PVP content, and the unique PvE experience WSpace offers.

I play EvE for about 4 hours a day, squeezing every minute I can get into this game.

Before, and after tthe WH spawn rate changes in the previous expansion

Before the change, we was able to login about every night, and have maybe one other Wormhole connection to us. We would simply roll our Orca's through it and close it. It would take roughly 15 minutes. Afterwards, we would run sites or mine.

After the change, we login and notice 4 wormholes connecting to us (almost every single night). We would spend an average of 1-1.5 hours closing wormholes/ensuring security to our Orca's whilst closing to run sites/mine for two hours, then go to bed. This was acceptable, as we would still D-Scan and watch for an extra Signature to alert us of a possible WH connecting to us.

We would average 150-300mil a day in income in our Wormhole depending on our activities, and split 5 ways doesn't amount to a whole lot.

Hyperion Expansion

Most changes to W-Space are fine, and are easy to adapt to, and would not change the content of what we are looking to get out of EvE, except for this particular change. This change, when paired with increasing the number of WSpace to WSpace WH's vastly, has a very negative impact on the type of Content we are looking to get.

This change means that we can no longer close unwanted WH's connecting to us. This could have been acceptable to us if we had to watch 1 extra wormhole while performing operations. However, when there are multiple WSpace to Wspace connections to us, the risk mitigation becomes far more difficult. We now need one set of cloaky eyes for every WH that connects to us for us to have some sort of security or early warning system.

Our corporation does not make enough ISK to risk fielding our avg 3bil isk fleet to earn income and enjoy the Content we are looking to get. Simply put: The potential risk is far too great vs the reward. We have been looking for days that can run Operations out of our wormhole when there are an acceptable amount of WH's connecting to us, but we haven't found any as of yet and as such, is impacting the content (and enjoyment of Wspace) that all of us in the Corp are looking for.

Hyperion Expansion Feedback

I believe most of this feedback is vastly negative because of the two changes coupled together. You have the Jump Mass distance, and the increased spawn rate of Wh-Wh connections. These changes together change the content of W-Space entirely as most corporations and/or alliances will not wish to Risk performing PvE operations in their respective wormholes because they cannot close the connections based on the Jump Mass change, and coupled with that there are so many WH's connecting to them.

The greatest impact of this change will be the small corporations (like us) that do not have the manpower or ability to throw up large fleets, or have the ISK to risk losing an Orca trying to close excess WH's needed to perform operations, or to help mitigate these changes. If we did, we would need a larger WH Class, which means more content we aren't looking particularly looking for. Also, the point of W-Space will be 90% PVP and 10% PvE, which is not what most people are looking to receive.

If you have no plans to change this feature at all, I would suggest reverting the vastly increased WH spawning in our systems so that the corporations are willing to adapt to just this change, and dealing with a Rogue wormhole 1-2 times a week vs 3-4 Rogue WH's every day.
Lamhoofd Hashur
HaffeLaffen
#1622 - 2014-08-27 15:06:24 UTC
By rereading the first three pages of this thread I was already able to acquire multiple posts to clarify why this change is a bad idea. Whether the other 80 are trolls or direct attack I don't want to discuss, however I do feel that we were first asked to give constructive feedback, an example was given that the post on page 1 by Traiori (post #5) was very useful. Can CCP therefore explain to me why we have to post this all over again, but this time more concise? Why was this not asked when the thread was started? And finally, why do say that such a constructive, still relatively elaborate post, is a good example of good feedback?

About the change itself, as I said I've seen multiple useful posts in only the first 3 pages of this thread. To make it easier why this change is bad I have put them in a pastebin for you: http://pastebin.com/0HKhbKYe . I am not arguing there are not more reason why it is bad, but the feedback already given should be valuable enough, especially when the community still thought the feedback was appreciated and would be used.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#1623 - 2014-08-27 15:17:05 UTC
Iku Nergal wrote:
After the change, we login and notice 4 wormholes connecting to us (almost every single night). We would spend an average of 1-1.5 hours closing wormholes/ensuring security to our Orca's whilst closing to run sites/mine for two hours, then go to bed.

Amazing how you can give daily averages and speak of "almost every single night" when exactly one (1) night has elapsed since the change.

.

Iku Nergal
Unity of Suns
Warped Intentions
#1624 - 2014-08-27 15:22:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Iku Nergal
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Iku Nergal wrote:
After the change, we login and notice 4 wormholes connecting to us (almost every single night). We would spend an average of 1-1.5 hours closing wormholes/ensuring security to our Orca's whilst closing to run sites/mine for two hours, then go to bed.

Amazing how you can give daily averages and speak of "almost every single night" when exactly one (1) night has elapsed since the change.


This change was implemented 1 expansion ago (one month ago), and as such, I can give an average of these results. The change involving the mass increase of LS-LS Wormholes also impacted the WH-WH connections we received inside our Wormhole.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1625 - 2014-08-27 15:25:47 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Iku Nergal wrote:
After the change, we login and notice 4 wormholes connecting to us (almost every single night). We would spend an average of 1-1.5 hours closing wormholes/ensuring security to our Orca's whilst closing to run sites/mine for two hours, then go to bed.

Amazing how you can give daily averages and speak of "almost every single night" when exactly one (1) night has elapsed since the change.

I too was confused at first but then I went completely balls to the wall apeshit crazy and finished reading his post.

I'm a rebel like that.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Naglerr
235MeV
Waterboard Comedy Tour
#1626 - 2014-08-27 15:29:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Naglerr
So I spent an hour messing around in excel with ship masses and max velocities and was able to come up with this equation:

Distance from Hole (meters) = (Mass(kg)^coeffA * Velocity(m/s)^coeffB ) / CoeffC + 2500 m + random(0-2000 m)

Using that equation and keeping the jump distance a constant 5 km you could tweak the coefficients to produce all sorts of fun gameplay dynamics while at the same time allowing players to exercise some level of control over their environment by simply ensuring their ship is at a low velocity. I haven't found the "perfect" mix of interesting and safe, but something like this seems interesting to me:

coeffA = 0.6 coeffB = 0.85 coeffC = 550

EDIT: the above values produced a result in KM, they have been updated to give the result in meters

Surely a dynamic yet predictable system such as this or similar could have/could still be implemented to change things up.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#1627 - 2014-08-27 15:32:18 UTC
Iku Nergal wrote:

This change was implemented 1 expansion ago (one month ago), and as such, I can give an average of these results. The change involving the mass increase of LS-LS Wormholes also impacted the WH-WH connections we received inside our Wormhole.

Hm okay, the patch notes do not show anything related to this prior to Hyperion, but since I was away from the game during that time, I'll take your word for it.

.

Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1628 - 2014-08-27 15:35:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Iku Nergal wrote:

This change was implemented 1 expansion ago (one month ago), and as such, I can give an average of these results. The change involving the mass increase of LS-LS Wormholes also impacted the WH-WH connections we received inside our Wormhole.

Hm okay, the patch notes do not show anything related to this prior to Hyperion, but since I was away from the game during that time, I'll take your word for it.

well to be fair it was iirc like a single line so easy enough to miss/forget. like 99% sure it was in crius.

edit: nope it was before that so way more than a month, though they only fixed the crazy k-space to c6 bs during crius

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Papa Django
Materials Harvesting Kombinat
#1629 - 2014-08-27 15:42:12 UTC
Iku Nergal wrote:
Also, the point of W-Space will be 90% PVP and 10% PvE, which is not what most people are looking to receive.


Agree to your post except this.

W-Space will be even more empty because most of the w-space targets are wh residents.

Less wh entities (of all size) means less pvp for everyone.
Ixianna Svartalfar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1630 - 2014-08-27 17:18:04 UTC
CCP Falcon, more than half this thread appears to be folks trying to give rational arguments about why or why not to implement this change. That is actually a reasonably large amount of potentially applicable commentary. All of that was before the changes were live on Tranquility, but after they were on Singularity.

The initial outrage was the result of changes being discovered after they were in the pipeline for implementation. When reasoned arguments were made in response to the Dev Blog post about everything (after the changes were already discovered) these changes were not directly responded to. Some changes about reducing the spawn distances did take place, however.

73 pages of this thread existed before the wormhole changes went live, and very little of that seems to have resulted in a response by CCP's representatives. Now the CSM member who is representing the players has responded, but much of that was limited before the changes went live (I suspect from a non-disclosure agreement). Now that people are responding to the changes on Tranquility you are trying to close this thread and ignore all the feedback and responses from the folks who saw what happened on the test server, gave opinions on that, and were largely ignored.

I did see someone mention "if this thread hits 80 pages" that something might happen. I suspect what happened is the players that composed most of the posts got fed up and left. That, or became so pissed off that they were ignored that a level of psychosis has been attained. Perhaps I am wrong here, but the folks who were trying to argue logically in the beginning are now just screaming and hurling insults. I suspect your company may need to rethink what communication is, and why it was your own actions that resulted in this behavior.

I just read 80 pages of suggestions, outrage, trolling, and hatred. Some of it was against CCP, some was just player infighting. (Game forums are known for this, of course, hence why I don't normally bother with them.) What is the point of a feedback thread where apparently no one reads or responds to it? Well, I guess I shouldn't say no one, I should say no one from the company who actually works on the game. Is there any incentive to respond to anything you ask us for feedback on after this?
Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1631 - 2014-08-27 17:31:12 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Rroff wrote:
Only as pointed out it largely doesn't address the issue(s) it was supposed to while having a largely negative aspect on day to day activities for the sake of mixing up the dynamic in some fringe cases. If the concerns of "safe" collapsing and frequency of collapsing are really such an issue there are much better ways to address that (technical considerations aside) while there are some potential ways this kind of mechanism could be used to mix up the meta a bit without impacting on the tedious day to day activities.

With no reasons officially given, I assume that the intent is to discourage collapsing in general. This assumption is supported by the fact that we got a huge amount of additional connections to compensate. My conclusion is that someone wants us to stop collapsing holes and this someone thinks that it is better to have a more persistent web of connected systems instead of the countless islands of isolation we have now. People are being forced to exert control over space instead of control over connections.

I happen to like this thinking. Most people here apparently don't. I think they will change their mind eventually, or be replaced by people who embrace the new environment. But I could be wrong. Or maybe there was no plan at all and Fozzie just hates us, who knows ^^

This is exactly what I think, but I know some of my corpies don't and others who are even more vocal.

"People are being forced to exert control over space instead of control over connections" is an erudite observation and speaks to what I believe is the intention of this change. People collapsing wormholes on a whim, for whatever reason be it rage-rolling for PvP or to stop people being able to PvP them (save for wandering holes) by critting or collapsing their static feels like it goes against the intended ethos of w-space.

Let's be honest with eachother, wandering holes were about the only random factor left in w-space. Everything else is known and in the case of serious players, mapped out to the nth degree. One shouldn't log in to w-space and be able to be blase about where one is, simply because the mechanics have become so well gamed. Holes are only open if the residents allow them to be, etc.
Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#1632 - 2014-08-27 17:42:03 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:

With no reasons officially given, I assume that the intent is to discourage collapsing in general. This assumption is supported by the fact that we got a huge amount of additional connections to compensate. My conclusion is that someone wants us to stop collapsing holes and this someone thinks that it is better to have a more persistent web of connected systems instead of the countless islands of isolation we have now. People are being forced to exert control over space instead of control over connections.


....Except that rolling connections and "moving" your w-space home makes w-space unique. Having a web of persistent connections means w-space is becoming more like k-space and less unique. Hell we even got people camping W-space/Highsec holes like they were stargates now. WTF is up with that.

If you want a web of static connections there's tons of different varieties of k-space. If you want to exert control over systems go to nullsec and join a sov holding alliance.

I appreciate that you like these changes but you'd probably enjoy eve better in k-space with your sentiments, rather than basically saying "yeah its great that w-space is becoming more like k-space".

The rest of the community basically favors w-space staying like w-space. i.e., let players control outgoing connections to other places in New Eden. Don't let the game dictate how your w-space home is connected to the rest of Eve.
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1633 - 2014-08-27 17:49:50 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Can we add random total mass to wormholes.
Now it is just to easy - each WH have known total mass until it close.
Can we put 20% random?

So double what the current variance is? Did you even know there even was a +/- 10% already in our calculations? Do you really think that will affect anything here?
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1634 - 2014-08-27 18:00:13 UTC
Valenthe de Celine wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Can we add random total mass to wormholes.
Now it is just to easy - each WH have known total mass until it close.
Can we put 20% random?

So double what the current variance is? Did you even know there even was a +/- 10% already in our calculations? Do you really think that will affect anything here?

Clearly she did not as previously pointed out,
-+ 10% is 20 percent, so she has already what she wanted Lol

Hopefully we can actually get Some one who actually has responsibility to make a decision read this forum thread and see what the effect on the community of this "delightful" change has been.

He may not be well pleased with the result.

Probably not what he expected.

Message to the decision Maker in question within CCP.

All the solutions to the self created problem are clearly explained within. Feedback has been clearly provided as requested.

If you need more information Please speak to the WH CSM. He may clarify any points.

I believe we have complied with the meaning of Feedback response as defined in the majority of dictionaries?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#1635 - 2014-08-27 18:18:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Maduin Shi
Durzel wrote:
Terrorfrodo wrote:

With no reasons officially given, I assume that the intent is to discourage collapsing in general. This assumption is supported by the fact that we got a huge amount of additional connections to compensate. My conclusion is that someone wants us to stop collapsing holes and this someone thinks that it is better to have a more persistent web of connected systems instead of the countless islands of isolation we have now. People are being forced to exert control over space instead of control over connections.


This is exactly what I think, but I know some of my corpies don't and others who are even more vocal.

"People are being forced to exert control over space instead of control over connections" is an erudite observation and speaks to what I believe is the intention of this change. People collapsing wormholes on a whim, for whatever reason be it rage-rolling for PvP or to stop people being able to PvP them (save for wandering holes) by critting or collapsing their static feels like it goes against the intended ethos of w-space.

Let's be honest with eachother, wandering holes were about the only random factor left in w-space. Everything else is known and in the case of serious players, mapped out to the nth degree. One shouldn't log in to w-space and be able to be blase about where one is, simply because the mechanics have become so well gamed. Holes are only open if the residents allow them to be, etc.


Correct that the mechanics are well understood. But I think it is arrogant to say "rolling on a whim" goes against some "ethos of w-space". Rolling holes is basic to w-space culture. There are times when w-space dwellers have complained of being rolled out of a possible fight. No system is ever perfect. But the old system was very, very well done.

There was only one serious flaw to my mind, and that was the ability to cut off your w-space home from the rest of New Eden by collapsing all the connecting wormholes. That has always been a borderline exploit to me. I still would like to see something done about it, but the spawn/distance thing and all the random holes taken together are not the answer. It removes player control over how their w-space home is connected to New Eden. Small groups cannot any longer control the risk profile of their w-space system. It just takes too long, its too tedious and too risky. Even with a large group its still a pain in the ass to do even basic things to exert control over your w-space environment now. But small groups just completely got the shaft with Hyperion.

Player control over w-space environments is so basic to w-space that its assumed and even forgotten. CCP appears to have forgotten. Perhaps we've assumed, and then ended up surprised to see CCP had forgotten.
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1636 - 2014-08-27 18:18:28 UTC
Durzel wrote:
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Rroff wrote:
Only as pointed out it largely doesn't address the issue(s) it was supposed to while having a largely negative aspect on day to day activities for the sake of mixing up the dynamic in some fringe cases. If the concerns of "safe" collapsing and frequency of collapsing are really such an issue there are much better ways to address that (technical considerations aside) while there are some potential ways this kind of mechanism could be used to mix up the meta a bit without impacting on the tedious day to day activities.

With no reasons officially given, I assume that the intent is to discourage collapsing in general. This assumption is supported by the fact that we got a huge amount of additional connections to compensate. My conclusion is that someone wants us to stop collapsing holes and this someone thinks that it is better to have a more persistent web of connected systems instead of the countless islands of isolation we have now. People are being forced to exert control over space instead of control over connections.

I happen to like this thinking. Most people here apparently don't. I think they will change their mind eventually, or be replaced by people who embrace the new environment. But I could be wrong. Or maybe there was no plan at all and Fozzie just hates us, who knows ^^

This is exactly what I think, but I know some of my corpies don't and others who are even more vocal.

"People are being forced to exert control over space instead of control over connections" is an erudite observation and speaks to what I believe is the intention of this change. People collapsing wormholes on a whim, for whatever reason be it rage-rolling for PvP or to stop people being able to PvP them (save for wandering holes) by critting or collapsing their static feels like it goes against the intended ethos of w-space.

Let's be honest with eachother, wandering holes were about the only random factor left in w-space. Everything else is known and in the case of serious players, mapped out to the nth degree. One shouldn't log in to w-space and be able to be blase about where one is, simply because the mechanics have become so well gamed. Holes are only open if the residents allow them to be, etc.

Holes used to be open only if they were permitted to remain in existence. In a C5 we always slammed every way out closed before we rolled the static. Once the static was rolled, the system was deemed as safe as it could be, and then we either engaged in PVE activities or started scouting the new static for targets. Regardless of what the corp intention was for the day, PVE or PVP, the first action was always to secure our space. Without that control the small 10 man corp couldn't maintain enough control and fight without huge risk for our little 8b ISK fleet.

Instances where this wasn't done always resulted in significant losses and overwhelming odds that could not be overcome. The reason for this? If we logged in after other entities already scanned and mapped all the holes, our intel was outdated and our efforts to move were simply and easily observed by cloaked scouts. At that point our fleet would be at the mercy of the enemy entities, and slaughters were occur. Closing those holes either forces the fight on our terms, forces the scouts to flee, or results in a faster, less coordinated fight for our enemies. It also prevents enemy backup from arriving from unexpected directions. Again, the times we did not adhere to this, things went very badly.

As to the new changes, last night went something like this:
"Did they just change something? We have 7 wormholes open." After scouting them, the scouts report activity in 2 of them that endangers anyone trying to roll under the new mechanics. Some members reship, follow a chain into lowsec, and go looking for small gang PVP. Rest of the corp (PVE and industry guys) logged out, bored, to go play something else.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1637 - 2014-08-27 18:25:43 UTC
Valenthe de Celine wrote:

As to the new changes, last night went something like this:
"Did they just change something? We have 7 wormholes open." After scouting them, the scouts report activity in 2 of them that endangers anyone trying to roll under the new mechanics. Some members reship, follow a chain into lowsec, and go looking for small gang PVP. Rest of the corp (PVE and industry guys) logged out, bored, to go play something else.


Seen something a long the lines of "waiting for wh to collapse, gonna go play #insert name of another game#" a few times in chat today - only once from corp - which later lead to a situation where PVP didn't happen due to *frig hole* (neither fleet could have jumped to the other) . So far these changes look like a right mess.
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1638 - 2014-08-27 18:53:51 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Valenthe de Celine wrote:

As to the new changes, last night went something like this:
"Did they just change something? We have 7 wormholes open." After scouting them, the scouts report activity in 2 of them that endangers anyone trying to roll under the new mechanics. Some members reship, follow a chain into lowsec, and go looking for small gang PVP. Rest of the corp (PVE and industry guys) logged out, bored, to go play something else.


Seen something a long the lines of "waiting for wh to collapse, gonna go play #insert name of another game#" a few times in chat today - only once from corp - which later lead to a situation where PVP didn't happen due to *frig hole* (neither fleet could have jumped to the other) . So far these changes look like a right mess.

Yeah, if things don't calm down and stabilize I suspect WH space will empty out completely. I am waiting to see what happens, but at least I know it will be easy to leave W-space now, what with all these open holes to take our caps ou... oh, wait, half those are frigate-only.
Galmas
13.
Enigma Project
#1639 - 2014-08-27 19:20:10 UTC
omg... i tad less of these frigate wormholes nobody will every really use would be nice.... i am at 4 in this single system here and there are about 20 sigs left to scan... please... what kind of rubbish is that.
Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights
#1640 - 2014-08-27 19:40:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Aureus Ahishatsu
Valenthe de Celine wrote:

Instances where this wasn't done always resulted in significant losses and overwhelming odds that could not be overcome. The reason for this? If we logged in after other entities already scanned and mapped all the holes, our intel was outdated and our efforts to move were simply and easily observed by cloaked scouts. At that point our fleet would be at the mercy of the enemy entities, and slaughters were occur. Closing those holes either forces the fight on our terms, forces the scouts to flee, or results in a faster, less coordinated fight for our enemies. It also prevents enemy backup from arriving from unexpected directions. Again, the times we did not adhere to this, things went very badly.

As to the new changes, last night went something like this:
"Did they just change something? We have 7 wormholes open." After scouting them, the scouts report activity in 2 of them that endangers anyone trying to roll under the new mechanics. Some members reship, follow a chain into lowsec, and go looking for small gang PVP. Rest of the corp (PVE and industry guys) logged out, bored, to go play something else.


I would like to second all of this. The idea that corps are going to risk multiple billions of isk trying to run any sort of PVE with a grand central station of wormholes open is ludicrous. The whole "risk vs. reward" thing is so heavily favored in the risk department it's not even an argument.

Here is how our corp events went last night.
Our scouts reported 5 wormholes 1 to a completely empty c5 one was our static ,1 to nullsec to (goonspace), one to lowsec and one to a c3. Since the c5 was completely empty of towers and scouted we decided to try the new mechanics first on that one. the orca took 20 seconds to get back and jump through. the dread took 50 seconds...... a minute sitting uncloaked in enemy space with a dread is a lifetime. After the streassful hole closer that took 3 times as long as normal we decided we had no way of rolling either the low sec or the null sec. A dread jump would be a guarantee death in either of those systems as it would only take a bat phone and a cyno to catch. Short of 30 battleship jumps which nobody was about to do we literally have no way of closing the WH now.. This all coupled with the increase in WH's in general so now we have wh's respawning at almost the rate we could even close them. End result: everyone cursed CCP starting thinking of ways to get out of the WH and logged off.

I fail to see how any of these changes generated any content considering you just killed an entire game play mechanic for the majority of the people who utilize it.