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EVE has a problem with its reputation. What can or should be done?

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Christina Project
Screaming Head in a Box.
#361 - 2014-07-18 11:34:33 UTC
Can we not use this thread to make a list of people we need to put pressure on
so they keep whining and raging on the forums until they quit?

That would be healthy for the game!

[i]"Don't look into another human's bowl to see how much he has ... ... look into his bowl to see if he has enough !" - Sol[/i]
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#362 - 2014-07-18 12:41:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Shizuken wrote:
and there should be no legal war fighting in highsec, at all.


This suggestion is enough for me to say no to everything you wrote, because I know where your ideas come from.

First of all, I've already explained why more players doesn't necessarily equate to a better game. More players of the right kind on the other hand is a different matter.

You are not the right kind. Anyone that suggests protection from aggression in any area of New Eden is the very wrong kind, and has already lost EVE by virtue of not being able to protect themselves.

Not only is this the most sickening suggestion I've seen made about EVE ever, it is by far one of the stupidest. Get wardecced? That's fine, just go to highsec.

If this is what you want, you are quite simply playing the wrong game, because EVE will never be this pathetic trash that you're suggesting. Your ideas are bad and you should feel bad.

Players who want easymode and safety and protection etc, they are not the intended audience of this game, and them not playing it is what's best for the health of the game, not changing the game to suit them. You want an easymode version of EVE? Go make your own.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Nathaniel Raynaud
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#363 - 2014-07-18 12:51:03 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:

This suggestion is enough for me to say no to everything you wrote, because I know where your ideas come from.

First of all, I've already explained why more players doesn't necessarily equate to a better game. More players of the right kind on the other hand is a different matter.

You are not the right kind. Anyone that suggests protection from aggression in any area of New Eden is the very wrong kind, and has already lost EVE by virtue of not being able to protect themselves.

Not only is this the most sickening suggestion I've seen made about EVE ever, it is by far one of the stupidest. Get wardecced? That's fine, just go to highsec.

If this is what you want, you are quite simply playing the wrong game, because EVE will never be this pathetic trash that you're suggesting. Your ideas are bad and you should feel bad.

Players who want easymode and safety and protection etc, they are not the intended audience of this game, and them not playing it is what's best for the health of the game, not changing the game to suit them. You want an easymode version of EVE? Go make your own.

when i started reading this my first thoughts were "well this guy seems to be overreacting a tiny bit" but as i read on i started to get really into it and by the end i felt jubilant and re-invigorated
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#364 - 2014-07-18 14:36:42 UTC
I didn't read this thread. But the only problem with EvE's Rep is that the vast majority of players are still safe zone zombies that get surprised when PvP weather patterns give them a rainy day.

So in other words, not enough people think this game is for the hardest of core.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#365 - 2014-07-18 15:15:52 UTC
I was thinking about Eve's reputation after noticing something at work - Eve is old.

The younger generation (middle 20's) all seem to wrap their gaming around their cell phone, or smart phone, whatever they're called today. Either the game is a fast reflexive sort or similar to Eve in a sense, players explore, expand, gather, build armies, combine forces, destroy each other and keep going until there is one winner. Then the game resets and players start again with different conditions and whatnot. But not Eve - from an outsider looking in, this game is slow and stagnant.
Snakes-On-A-Plane
#366 - 2014-07-18 15:40:41 UTC
Val'Dore wrote:
I didn't read this thread. But the only problem with EvE's Rep is that the vast majority of players are still safe zone zombies that get surprised when PvP weather patterns give them a rainy day.

So in other words, not enough people think this game is for the hardest of core.

HS Ganking is not really PVP though, at least not in the sense that it includes the connotations we normally associate with PVP.
It's sort of equivocating.
I mean it's technically player vs player. But it is dissimilar from what most people consider pvp in a number of ways:


  • It has no significant expectation of risk, or unforeseen consequences.
  • It doesn't require a great deal of skill.
  • It's almost completely safe from the intrusion of other players.
  • It's just a numbers game. You can work out everything you need to be successful as a HS ganker on a spreadsheet.


That really makes it more akin to mining.
You can even view sec status as being a permit price, or tax. It's equally predictable.
I just don't see why it should be considered 'sacred' or immune to discussions of balance.

Just My Opinion.
Velarra
#367 - 2014-07-18 15:50:05 UTC
Guttripper wrote:
I was thinking about Eve's reputation after noticing something at work - Eve is old.

The younger generation (middle 20's) all seem to wrap their gaming around their cell phone, or smart phone, whatever they're called today. Either the game is a fast reflexive sort or similar to Eve in a sense, players explore, expand, gather, build armies, combine forces, destroy each other and keep going until there is one winner. Then the game resets and players start again with different conditions and whatnot. But not Eve - from an outsider looking in, this game is slow and stagnant.


A bit like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetarion from ages past?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#368 - 2014-07-18 16:14:59 UTC
Snakes-On-A-Plane wrote:
Val'Dore wrote:
I didn't read this thread. But the only problem with EvE's Rep is that the vast majority of players are still safe zone zombies that get surprised when PvP weather patterns give them a rainy day.

So in other words, not enough people think this game is for the hardest of core.

HS Ganking is not really PVP though, at least not in the sense that it includes the connotations we normally associate with PVP.
It's sort of equivocating.
I mean it's technically player vs player. But it is dissimilar from what most people consider pvp in a number of ways:


  • It has no significant expectation of risk, or unforeseen consequences.
  • It doesn't require a great deal of skill.
  • It's almost completely safe from the intrusion of other players.
  • It's just a numbers game. You can work out everything you need to be successful as a HS ganker on a spreadsheet.


That really makes it more akin to mining.
You can even view sec status as being a permit price, or tax. It's equally predictable.
I just don't see why it should be considered 'sacred' or immune to discussions of balance.

Just My Opinion.


Your opinion is wrong for the simple fact that gankers are people and the people they gank are also people.

It doesnt matter if haulers make it easy to gank them, its still pvp.
Snakes-On-A-Plane
#369 - 2014-07-18 16:19:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Snakes-On-A-Plane
baltec1 wrote:


Your opinion is wrong for the simple fact that gankers are people and the people they gank are also people.

It doesnt matter if haulers make it easy to gank them, its still pvp.

Thanks for the response.
*shrug*
Just read the first three sentences again, I guess.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#370 - 2014-07-18 16:24:29 UTC
Snakes-On-A-Plane wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Your opinion is wrong for the simple fact that gankers are people and the people they gank are also people.

It doesnt matter if haulers make it easy to gank them, its still pvp.

Thanks for the response.
*shrug*
Just read the first three sentences again, I guess.


I read it all.

The reason why people stamp down on calls to nerf ganking is because it has been nerfed at least twice every year for the last decade. The people that scream for nerfs will not be happy untill it is removed from the game entirely. Any more nerfs to it would effectivly remove high sec piracy as a profession.
ChironV
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#371 - 2014-07-18 16:33:07 UTC
Problem most game developers, including CCP, have is they see the game from a perspective of co-operation and good natured playing. This mostly comes from the fact that as they test it they are familiar with and possibly friends with the other developers. This blindsides them to the actuality of complete anonymity and the d-bag quotient. When people know one another they are polite, due to potential real life consequences.
Take a normal person, give them complete anonymity and an open sandbox game format, and you wind up with some people's inner d-bag having an outlet.
Given that the game has this reputation, it has, over the years, attracted players who are d-bag's, sociopaths and borderline psychopaths. They may be totally stand up people when you meet them in real life but deep in their minds they have that inner d-bag and Eve lets them free it for a time before they have to reign it in to behave in polite society. So in reality they are d-bags pretending to be polite folks.
However the bulk of the players are normal folk who, hop on, pew pew, mine or whatnot and log off. Its only the last 10% who spin elaborate scams, taking pleasure from being able to make other players miserable. Unfortunately the internet community is full of people who like to complain and or tout their latest scam victims so as a result Eve has developed the perception that it is a game full of d-bags.
It is unlikely that CCP will change the game. So the onus is on us as the players to be positive about the game. We should also judge our own actions and make sure we are not behaving like a sociopath sadist due to the anonymity factor.
Since this game is anonymous the ONLY person we have to answer to is ourselves. If you are holding a pod for ransom, are you doing it for the money or are you doing it because you get a thrill taunting and listening to some guy beg for his pod.

In short we need more news of huge battles and less news of scammers and Fan Fests where a potentially suicidal person is trolled and taunted by other players or another fan fest where a sculpture dedicated to the players is defaced by said players.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#372 - 2014-07-18 16:54:28 UTC
ChironV wrote:
Problem most game developers, including CCP, have is they see the game from a perspective of co-operation and good natured playing. This mostly comes from the fact that as they test it they are familiar with and possibly friends with the other developers. This blindsides them to the actuality of complete anonymity and the d-bag quotient. When people know one another they are polite, due to potential real life consequences.
Take a normal person, give them complete anonymity and an open sandbox game format, and you wind up with some people's inner d-bag having an outlet.
Given that the game has this reputation, it has, over the years, attracted players who are d-bag's, sociopaths and borderline psychopaths. They may be totally stand up people when you meet them in real life but deep in their minds they have that inner d-bag and Eve lets them free it for a time before they have to reign it in to behave in polite society. So in reality they are d-bags pretending to be polite folks.
However the bulk of the players are normal folk who, hop on, pew pew, mine or whatnot and log off. Its only the last 10% who spin elaborate scams, taking pleasure from being able to make other players miserable. Unfortunately the internet community is full of people who like to complain and or tout their latest scam victims so as a result Eve has developed the perception that it is a game full of d-bags.
It is unlikely that CCP will change the game. So the onus is on us as the players to be positive about the game. We should also judge our own actions and make sure we are not behaving like a sociopath sadist due to the anonymity factor.
Since this game is anonymous the ONLY person we have to answer to is ourselves. If you are holding a pod for ransom, are you doing it for the money or are you doing it because you get a thrill taunting and listening to some guy beg for his pod.

In short we need more news of huge battles and less news of scammers and Fan Fests where a potentially suicidal person is trolled and taunted by other players or another fan fest where a sculpture dedicated to the players is defaced by said players.


Being a pirate in a game that advertises you can be a pirate does not make you a d-bag, sociopath or a psycopath.
Snakes-On-A-Plane
#373 - 2014-07-18 17:01:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Snakes-On-A-Plane
baltec1 wrote:
The reason why people stamp down on calls to nerf ganking is because it has been nerfed at least twice every year for the last decade. The people that scream for nerfs will not be happy untill it is removed from the game entirely. Any more nerfs to it would effectivly remove high sec piracy as a profession.


I don't think it's that black and white. I do believe that HS ganking has it's place in Eve. I do not believe it should be immune from balance discussions. Hypothetically, it could become too easy in the current meta, and it could conceivably become too hard.

The game is constantly shifting. What was OK for the game yesterday, isn't necessarily OK today. PVP activities that actually involve risk are not immune to rebalance, or discussions of rebalance. I don't see why HS ganking should be.

Again, just my opinion.

baltec1 wrote:
Being a pirate in a game that advertises you can be a pirate does not make you a d-bag, sociopath or a psycopath

I agree with that BTW. For what it's worth.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#374 - 2014-07-18 17:05:38 UTC
Snakes-On-A-Plane wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The reason why people stamp down on calls to nerf ganking is because it has been nerfed at least twice every year for the last decade. The people that scream for nerfs will not be happy untill it is removed from the game entirely. Any more nerfs to it would effectivly remove high sec piracy as a profession.


I don't think it's that black and white. I do believe that HS ganking has it's place in Eve. I do not believe it should be immune from balance discussions. Hypothetically, it could become too easy in the current meta, and it could conceivably become too hard.

The game is constantly shifting. What was OK for the game yesterday, isn't necessarily OK today. PVP activities that actually involve risk are not immune to rebalance, or discussions of rebalance. I don't see why HS ganking should be.

Again, just my opinion.

baltec1 wrote:
Being a pirate in a game that advertises you can be a pirate does not make you a d-bag, sociopath or a psycopath

I agree with that BTW. For what it's worth.


Ganking is only as easy as the victim makes it.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#375 - 2014-07-18 17:18:55 UTC
Shizuken wrote:
More subs equals more revenue. More revenue equals more devs. More devs equals more rebalancing, ships, features etc.


Close, but not quite. More revenue means more devs to work on the next world of darkness or dust. There's also a point at which too many devs working on the game wouldn't help anyway, though every time I read the CSM minutes it seems they need more artists as that's frequently cited as a bottleneck.

Snakes-On-A-Plane wrote:
HS Ganking is not really PVP though, at least not in the sense that it includes the connotations we normally associate with PVP.


Ganking isn't associated with player versus player? I guess we must just target NPCs, except isn't that called mission running? :P

baltec1 wrote:
Ganking is only as easy as the victim volunteer makes it.


Fixed your post.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Snakes-On-A-Plane
#376 - 2014-07-18 17:20:57 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Ganking is only as easy as the victim makes it.

That's only partially true.
Ganking is at least partially as easy as CCP makes it.

Here's is a partial list of things that have made ganking easier since I started playing:
Tech II guns
Tech II skills
DPS Rigs
Overheating
The introduction of Destroyers and attack BCs
Tags
The prices of meta and tech II weaponry have dropped markedly over the years.
I'm sure there's more I'm not thinking about.

There's a number of things that have made ganking more difficult too.
To begin with, you can't tank concorde any longer :p
Not to mention the latest nerfs.

Does it balance out?
Well, now we're not talking about the target only, we're talking about dev decisions, and we're talking about balance.

I guess where I'm coming from is that using 'pvp' or 'hostile universe' as a universal justification for immunity from balance discussions is sort of disingenuous. Not even 'TRUE' pvp is immune to balance discussions.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#377 - 2014-07-18 17:22:27 UTC
Snakes-On-A-Plane wrote:
[
Here's is a partial list of things that have made ganking easier since I started playing:
Tech II guns
Tech II skills
DPS Rigs
Overheating
The introduction of Destroyers and attack BCs
Tags
The prices of meta and tech II weaponry have dropped markedly over the years.
I'm sure there's more I'm not thinking about.


None of these things help me at all if you're already warping out when my gank ship lands on grid with you.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Christina Project
Screaming Head in a Box.
#378 - 2014-07-18 17:30:54 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Snakes-On-A-Plane wrote:
[
Here's is a partial list of things that have made ganking easier since I started playing:
Tech II guns
Tech II skills
DPS Rigs
Overheating
The introduction of Destroyers and attack BCs
Tags
The prices of meta and tech II weaponry have dropped markedly over the years.
I'm sure there's more I'm not thinking about.


None of these things help me at all if you're already warping out when my gank ship lands on grid with you.

Do you see that his points are mostly bull anyway?

Most of these things are generic, affecting PvE as well.

Only "tags" can be counted as deliberately made because of ganking.

[i]"Don't look into another human's bowl to see how much he has ... ... look into his bowl to see if he has enough !" - Sol[/i]
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#379 - 2014-07-18 17:38:09 UTC
Snakes-On-A-Plane wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Ganking is only as easy as the victim makes it.

That's only partially true.
Ganking is at least partially as easy as CCP makes it.

Here's is a partial list of things that have made ganking easier since I started playing:
Tech II guns
Tech II skills
DPS Rigs
Overheating
The introduction of Destroyers and attack BCs
Tags
The prices of meta and tech II weaponry have dropped markedly over the years.
I'm sure there's more I'm not thinking about.

There's a number of things that have made ganking more difficult too.
To begin with, you can't tank concorde any longer :p
Not to mention the latest nerfs.

Does it balance out?
Well, now we're not talking about the target only, we're talking about dev decisions, and we're talking about balance.

I guess where I'm coming from is that using 'pvp' or 'hostile universe' as a universal justification for immunity from balance discussions is sort of disingenuous. Not even 'TRUE' pvp is immune to balance discussions.


Well I guess Tech II tank mods and rigs, which have had their prcies drop markedly over the years don't exist.
Snakes-On-A-Plane
#380 - 2014-07-18 17:39:22 UTC
admiral root wrote:

None of these things help me at all if you're already warping out when my gank ship lands on grid with you.

I don't really have a horse in this race. I'm just calling it as I see it.

Escaping isn't the issue. It's not like we're talking about Null or J-space here, we're talking about HS. If you're having difficulty catching carebears in HS, you're doing something severely wrong.