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EVE has a problem with its reputation. What can or should be done?

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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#301 - 2014-07-16 23:04:11 UTC
I swear the people who always cry about how bad the players in EVE are are the same people who modify the rules when they play Monopoly because it is too competitive (or cruel) for them. (I have "played" with such people, it's no fun!!)

I really don't want to see EVE getting castrated just so that this people who can't compete with other people for fun can join in on a game that is clearly not made for them. There are tons of games for them where they can have their pointless non-competitive solo grind.

Evil RatKid
RoAnnon
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#302 - 2014-07-16 23:25:32 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
It's not a problem. EvE's reputation is a celebration of what the game is.

Nothing to fix at all.


As I was reading through the replies, this was the thought hanging in the back of my mind.

EVE's reputation is based on the actions and attitudes of its players. EVE doesn't have a problem with it, though some people that may not enjoy the game might. If CCP were to try to change that reputation through marketing or PR campaigns, they'd be lying to prospective new customers.

It is what it is. Play or don't.

So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter.

Broadcast4Reps

Eve Vegas 2015 Pub Crawl Group 9

Houston EVE Meet
45thtiger 0109
Pan-Intergalatic Business Community
#303 - 2014-07-16 23:29:32 UTC
Myxx wrote:
I'm saying what I'm going to say with the intent on perhaps piggybacking on the recent discussions on how awful the NPE is, because there is another problem related to getting new blood in the game, that threatens to hurt the game before people even try it. I am not going to propose ideas on how to fix it, or claim it needs to be fixed. That is for others to decide. I am simply a messenger.

EVE's reputation has a problem with gamers outside of EVE.

This has been known, I think for some time between many EVE players. Its been mentioned and is something that I think a fair number of us encounter when we talk about EVE to other gamers.

I was playing another MMO last night, that will go unnamed, but I saw talk about EVE and another game in a chat channel I was in, that had somewhere around 200~ other people in it.

This is the quote that got my attention:

Quote:
EVE is a terrible game. I've heard horror stories about it, the pretty much legalized griefing that goes on in the game and ****. Guild officers robbing entire guilds blind, forceful takeovers of guilds and draining them. ******* over new players in general. Its just **** I've heard, I've never played the game though. I probably never will, why would anyone want to experience that?


For many of us, that might seem a bit... tame. For many people that play this game, that's a normal sunday in game.

But, it does speak to the problem itself. Read it again, particularly the last part. "I've never played the game though. I probably never will, why would anyone want to experience that?"

But, this isn't new, nor a new problem.

Comments in an article about that problem back in march/april that got someone banned rather publicly for harrassment are worth reading. Article in question, read the comments: http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/03/25/heres-some-of-the-cyberbullying-that-happens-in-eve-online/

Quote:
Eve, a great place for jerks to congregate and pretend they're good at something, when in reality the only thing they're good it is being douche bags, and having way too much time to play a video game.


From a former player:
Quote:
Sociopaths like E1 will always find victims because weak ones are numerous in our world.

Abusing them is never ok, even if they are willing to be abused.



CCP had to answer faster on this matter and they did not. My EVE accounts have been cancelled and I will never set foot in this universe (and I don't want to call it a game, I have too much respect for them) again. I am quite ashamed to have been blind for so long.



Enjoy your s***box. (the *** were put there by me, not by some profanity filter).


From a steam review:


i also grew to mistrust the company CCP and the community of this game, although im sure there were lots of decent human beings amongst them. the biggest problem i had with the community happened when i first started playing. the leader of one of the most prominent corporate alliances had shown up to a livestream drunk and called out a player by his real name and asked his followers to grief this poor, totally innocent guy. the leader said during the livestream that he wanted the player to actually commit suicide irl, and the big bad leader was marshalling his ingame forces to "make it so".

this despicable behaviour was reprimanded with a slap on the wrist, a mere 30 day suspension from their little ingame council, and as far as i know, nothing more was done.

there seemed to be a lingering resentment towards players who choose to pve or mine or whatever, and i read more than a few forum posts that were more like essays on how the elitist players are right in how they grief players who choose to mine, likening them to worse than mindless drones that deserve to die over and over. it felt like i was reading the manifesto of a sociopath, rather than a reasoned sensible opinion.


Quote:
This isn't a game. This is a chatroom for the sociopathic basement-dwellers who use mindgames to screw over the other nutjobs


The point is... EVE has a reputation problem that gets people to never consider trying it to begin with. This is not good for the game. What should be done about it, if anything?[/quote]


<------------ * Brings out the popcorn for good thread reading Big smileLolP

**You Have to take the good with the bad and the bad with the good.

Welcome to EvE OnLiNe**
Jeremy Fischer1
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#304 - 2014-07-17 01:42:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeremy Fischer1
Madam Lash wrote:
Jeremy Fischer1 wrote:
I don't see EVE having a negative reputation at all.... I actually hadn't really heard anything about it before I got in the game and tried it. The community is great, the game rewarding.... those people are just errr ehmmm "sissys" who are used to more conventional games. You want to see a game that had a real bad reputation and for good reason? Age of conan. I loved that game, and it was challenging, but the community was awful. If you ever heard bad things about that game and played it, you could say to yourself yeah, that's pretty much true. People complaining about griefing are people who play the little kid games, the sugar coated watered down no brain waves required games. And I truly don't care if they play EVE or not. EVE attracts a certain type of person, and I like that about the game.


A little off topic but okay...

AoC was a terrible game and comparing EVE to that horrible buggy thing is just wrong - so very, very, very, wrong... Griefing was rife in that game max or near max level toons hanging outside of Tortuga and 'hurr durring' their way to easy kills against newbs. The horrible imbalance between classes the game breaking bugs that were never fixed and the community that exploited and didn't bother to report exploits like the AH bug... I could go on and on but I've tried to block out all memory of that game - even its 'photo-realistic' boobies which always made the inn errm interesting Shocked

The difference between that (and any other MMO of its ilk) is that a new character in EVE has a chance against a similarly shipped (frigates vs frigates or whatever) opponent who might be years older than they are it doesn't come down to levels in the traditional sense but rather the way people fly and fit out. Do people like to shoot at ridiculously outclassed players in EVE? Sure they do. Do people complain about it? You bet they do. This isn't a game that attracts any more or any less 'noble' players than any other what it does attract are people who are willing to learn the system, that like the challenge of finding that one 'perfect' fit. Instant gratification isn't EVE's strong point and nor should it be.

What I personally think the problem with newer players is the 'solo' attitude they bring in from other games and you know maybe EVE's reputation has preceded itself in that regard because new players are so scared of losing their ISK they trust no-one. Most of us here would have people they fly with regularly that they'd trust not to shoot them (too much!) but unless you play with outside friends or family we all started off with the same attitude and had to make corp mates along the way, at some point a new player realises that the issue isn't with the game or the people in it but the way they themselves play it.

My comparison was in reputation alone, not in quality. Which is justified because people are complaining about EVE's reputation as being bad. When it isn't, the only negative I heard about this game before trying it is, it's hard to play. Oh noes, EVE has a negative reputation! The griefing that takes place in this game is nothing in comparison. And no, a low SP player vs a high SP player isn't going to be a even fight. THe higher SP player will win everytime against a new character. That's why there's a rule to not shoot new characters in starting zones. EVen though you see douchebags in Couster every day doing just that. Trying to bait people with cans or duel invites.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#305 - 2014-07-17 03:04:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Jeremy Fischer1 wrote:
And no, a low SP player vs a high SP player isn't going to be a even fight.


See, this is why I left Of Sound Mind's space, because you guys actually believe this, amongst other things that just make me grimace with their utter ridiculousness. Meanwhile, I'm a 2012 and was able to kill a 2006 with more than twice my SP in a Gnosis vs Gnosis fight, and mine only had meta 4 guns, AND I had to tank his friend in a Tengu as well as him. He died just before I cynoed in a small blob to deal with the ***** in the Tengu.

SP is only a factor in an 'even' fight, even for the newest players. One of my rookies, not too long ago, with less than 2 mil SP, went out in a Fed Navy Comet and solo'd a Rifter flown by an '08, and not a shitfit Rifter either.

I see this "SP wins fights" crap claim all the time, and then I consistently see it proven wrong. Maybe if you're not seeing that, then you're doing something wrong.

And before you say, "but brand new players that haven't learned anything will get stomped with low SP", yes, yes they will. That's because they haven't learned anything yet. Brand new players buying a high-SP toon off the bazaar will also get stomped for the same reason.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Arkady Romanov
Whole Squid
#306 - 2014-07-17 03:21:21 UTC
SP and isk are largely irrelevant. Let's not forget the fable of the fool who lost not one, but two 44 billion Isk Ravens:

http://themittani.com/features/alod-go-back-wow

Whole Squid: Get Inked.
Wiros PotHead
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#307 - 2014-07-17 10:31:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Wiros PotHead
I've been playing only for five months, but it´s precisely its "roughness / complexity" what keeps me login.

I have tried other MMOs but I felt corseted: "do not do this, you can not kill that, etc ..." as someone said before:

EVE is as it is, take it or leave it.

“This is war. You never want to fight fair. You want to sneak up behind your enemy and club him over the head.”

– Kara Thrace aka "Starbuck"  
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#308 - 2014-07-17 12:03:17 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
In Eve We have both a game and a social experiment, we see Raw human nature in all it's forms.

I believe that any attempt to change human nature in EvE is doomed to failure, and not only that, will make the game less enjoyable to play.


Starting with new players, and conditioning them as you wish.

If you want people to fight, you make the mechanic to get people out to fight, quickly and cheaply, and make it possible to get back out there IMMEDIATELY, after losses.

If you want people to be careful and cautious, you make the Time cost of losses high to make them avoid losses.

If you want people to grief, you make the work the victim has to recover from as high a time cost as possible.

If you want to reduce Griefing you make the time cost and therefore loss as low as possible so the victim says meh asshat, and moves on in minutes.

New players will learn these lessons early then, and that effects your future larger customer base.

Not by changing Human Nature or enforcing rules.

But by taking account of human nature, and acting accordingly to attain your goals.



All These points relate to the new player experience and conditioning the new player base, more experienced players will also benefit, even though none of these apply directly to them, as the developing players after this is done, will not be so malformed in attitude. Current players have either overcome the faulty current conditioning or are beyond help! ( or left, and they are no longer current players, so are lost to us)

CCP employed an economist to good effect.

It is time they employed a behavioural Psychologist.
They are making the most basic errors and this is the result.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Hiply Rustic
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#309 - 2014-07-17 12:46:32 UTC
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:


The argument that we need to attract and retain people that this game isn't meant for is ridiculous. "But CCP iz bizness, needz teh subs": yes, they are a business, but no they do not need more customers if it means alienating most of those they already have. It's the equivalent of saying that Ferrari should switch to making minivans and subcompacts, because they would move more units.


You mean like Porsche building SUVs and sedans? Blink

Ralph King-Griffin wrote: "Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied." EvE: Only the strong-willied need apply.
Hiply Rustic
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#310 - 2014-07-17 12:49:37 UTC
Hiply Rustic wrote:
[quote=Gallowmere Rorschach]

The argument that we need to attract and retain people that this game isn't meant for is ridiculous. "But CCP iz bizness, needz teh subs": yes, they are a business, but no they do not need more customers if it means alienating most of those they already have. It's the equivalent of saying that Ferrari should switch to making minivans and subcompacts, because they would move more units.


You mean like Porsche building SUVs and sedans? Blink

I agree with you though, changing the core game's rulesets in an attempt to create the Azeroth Galaxy Online would be ruinous. It should not happen. Period. Full stop. The vast majority of those players wound't survive the trial period in EvE...and shouldn't.

That doesn't mean that the NPE can't be significantly improved; it can.

Ralph King-Griffin wrote: "Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied." EvE: Only the strong-willied need apply.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#311 - 2014-07-17 12:49:56 UTC
Hiply Rustic wrote:
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:


The argument that we need to attract and retain people that this game isn't meant for is ridiculous. "But CCP iz bizness, needz teh subs": yes, they are a business, but no they do not need more customers if it means alienating most of those they already have. It's the equivalent of saying that Ferrari should switch to making minivans and subcompacts, because they would move more units.


You mean like Porsche building SUVs and sedans? Blink


If it's at the expense of their high-performance models, then yes. Also, they're not making sedans, they're making grand touring saloons. There is a difference, but it's irrelevant to this discussion.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Hiply Rustic
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#312 - 2014-07-17 12:58:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Hiply Rustic
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Hiply Rustic wrote:
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:


The argument that we need to attract and retain people that this game isn't meant for is ridiculous. "But CCP iz bizness, needz teh subs": yes, they are a business, but no they do not need more customers if it means alienating most of those they already have. It's the equivalent of saying that Ferrari should switch to making minivans and subcompacts, because they would move more units.


You mean like Porsche building SUVs and sedans? Blink


If it's at the expense of their high-performance models, then yes. Also, they're not making sedans, they're making grand touring saloons. There is a difference, but it's irrelevant to this discussion.


Remiel, it was a fully tongue-in-cheek comment. On the irrelevant sub-topic though; it's a compromised departure from the rest of the line and calling it a saloon as you do, or a sedan as Edmunds, Car and Driver, and Motor Trend do, doesn't change the fact that it was done purely to sell cars. A tactic I'm opposed to as a former 911 owner.

Just as I'm opposed to the thought of softening the core rulesets in an attempt to make EvE popular with the Azeroth Refuge crowd (steering this back toward the topic).

Ralph King-Griffin wrote: "Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied." EvE: Only the strong-willied need apply.
Arkady Romanov
Whole Squid
#313 - 2014-07-17 13:03:17 UTC
edit: wrong thread.

Whole Squid: Get Inked.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#314 - 2014-07-17 13:04:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Hiply Rustic wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Hiply Rustic wrote:
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:


The argument that we need to attract and retain people that this game isn't meant for is ridiculous. "But CCP iz bizness, needz teh subs": yes, they are a business, but no they do not need more customers if it means alienating most of those they already have. It's the equivalent of saying that Ferrari should switch to making minivans and subcompacts, because they would move more units.


You mean like Porsche building SUVs and sedans? Blink


If it's at the expense of their high-performance models, then yes. Also, they're not making sedans, they're making grand touring saloons. There is a difference, but it's irrelevant to this discussion.


Remiel, it was a fully tongue-in-cheek comment. On the irrelevant sub-topic though; it's a compromised departure from the rest of the line and calling it a saloon as you do, or a sedan as Edmunds, Car and Driver, and Motor Trend do, doesn't change the fact that it was done purely to sell cars. A tactic I'm opposed to as a former 911 owner.

Just as I'm opposed to the thought of softening the core rulesets in an attempt to make EvE popular with the Azeroth Refuge crowd (steering this back toward the topic).


I've done a lot of motorsport in my days. Last year, I had the opportunity to test a few of Porsche's latest models on a local track, including the Panamera and the RS3. I'll be honest... I preferred the Panamera, performance wise. That's not to say the RS3 isn't brilliant, and it definitely beats the Pan hands down going sideways, but the Panamera was a much smoother drive, even at high speeds and when it came to handling, it was INCREDIBLE. It actually took me quite by surprise, too. For something that weighs almost as much as a 300C it sure didn't drive like one.

Anyway, I'm not that experienced in Porshes, I'm mostly a Nissan guy, did a lot of drift and a few car shows. See, to me, something like a Bluebird is a sedan. The Panamera, that's a saloon.

I think some people are against change because they're traditionalists, but some people are against change just for the sake of change. In Porsche's case, neither applies, because they still make the 911, and it gets better each time they make a new one. The analogy still doesn't work because Porsche is expanding their market without sacrificing their flagship.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Ra' zutao
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#315 - 2014-07-17 13:18:57 UTC
The type of people that are complaining about EVE's current state and it being to hard to survive are the same scum that took WoW from being a very challenging, strategic fun game to play to dumbed down face roll city just so they could get their jollies off.

I hope Eve doesn't cave like Blizzard did and bend their knee to the impotent
Sky' Darkstar
Magnetar Dynamics
#316 - 2014-07-17 13:21:13 UTC
If you think EVE has a problem with its reputation, maybe EVE isn't for you.

-Sky'
Orin Solette
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#317 - 2014-07-17 14:05:18 UTC
Eve would just end up like every other game if CCP caves and I promise you I'd be the first to leave. And I barely even PVP at all.
Telekon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#318 - 2014-07-17 14:31:01 UTC
Arkady Romanov wrote:
SP and isk are largely irrelevant. Let's not forget the fable of the fool who lost not one, but two 44 billion Isk Ravens:

http://themittani.com/features/alod-go-back-wow


After reading that, I'd say that EVE's reputation isn't notorious enough. New players should be aware that avoiding scams is part of EVE's gameplay.
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
#319 - 2014-07-17 14:39:01 UTC  |  Edited by: BoBoZoBo
A good plan of action requires good data.
You have none. Intertube nerd-rage comments do not count.

Primary Test Subject • SmackTalker Elite
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#320 - 2014-07-17 15:02:42 UTC
Myxx wrote:
IThis is the quote that got my attention:

Quote:
EVE is a terrible game. I've heard horror stories about it, the pretty much legalized griefing that goes on in the game and ****. Guild officers robbing entire guilds blind, forceful takeovers of guilds and draining them. ******* over new players in general. Its just **** I've heard, I've never played the game though. I probably never will, why would anyone want to experience that?


For many of us, that might seem a bit... tame. For many people that play this game, that's a normal sunday in game.


Keeping crybaby morons like that out of the game isn't a problem. It's quality control.