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Has suicide ganking become a problem? Empty freighters being ganked.

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Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#401 - 2014-06-18 14:34:52 UTC
Kalon Horan wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


This event actually was ganking at keyboard characters with empty freighters .... theres the problem......


And what stops those ppl from doing the same thing the gankers do: working as a team to defend themselves?

In a word? The so-called roleplaying that a lot of people like to berate.

The pseudo-Biblical style of the code as it's written, the doctrine ships (though hisec leaves very few options), the paltry 10 million permits (people randomly dump 10 million into strangers's accounts in Jita Local), the idea that EVE's own economy is at stake, an "us against the world" philosophy a ganker develops from all the vitriol about suicide ganking (look at this thread).. all of these are strangely unifying.

That, and nothing brings people together like killing together.




Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
#402 - 2014-06-18 14:36:26 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:

So, the only thing stopping you from shooting a non-outlaw ganker is the sec status hit? Honestly, it really isn't that big a deal. See above, I took my +5 alt out, blew up a random miner, and went to 4.8. Nowhere near the -5.0 "criminal" status. As long as you don't pop pods, you can blow up lots and lots of non-outlaw gankers before you even hit -2.0.

Think of it like vigilante justice if that helps. Sure, according to the law, Batman is a Bad Guy, and should go to prison....

And yeah, if they're already blinky, blast away. Free target.


The issue is more than the security status hit. Not all of us have +5 sec status. This is an issue of the design and context of the problem. Not a black and white answer.

Give people more tools in HS to take on people that act like criminals BEFORE they gank. Stop waiting for them start the action and stop them in the 3 seconds before its done and the pop their victim. Allow people more ways to get them earlier.

This is why I use the analogy of the FBI and most wanted list in a normal public place with police around...
Kalon Horan
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#403 - 2014-06-18 14:38:27 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Kalon Horan wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


This event actually was ganking at keyboard characters with empty freighters .... theres the problem......


And what stops those ppl from doing the same thing the gankers do: working as a team to defend themselves?

In a word? The so-called roleplaying that a lot of people like to berate.

The pseudo-Biblical style of the code as it's written, the doctrine ships (though hisec leaves very few options), the paltry 10 million permits (people randomly dump 10 million into strangers's accounts in Jita Local), the idea that EVE's own economy is at stake, an "us against the world" philosophy a ganker develops from all the vitriol about suicide ganking (look at this thread).. all of these are strangely unifying.

That, and nothing brings people together like killing together.






And yet the people who claim that they keep the economy going are unable to team up to kill the "threat" they see in the suicide gankers.
Chil
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#404 - 2014-06-18 14:38:49 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:


Scouts aren't TOO difficult to ID. Look for a guy a couple jumps away from the action, sitting on a gate for no real reason.

You can be even more sure if you see em cloak/decloak as freighters warp in.


Ah, so look for the NPC corp player who looks like CODE should have ganked them but haven't?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#405 - 2014-06-18 14:41:29 UTC
Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:

So, the only thing stopping you from shooting a non-outlaw ganker is the sec status hit? Honestly, it really isn't that big a deal. See above, I took my +5 alt out, blew up a random miner, and went to 4.8. Nowhere near the -5.0 "criminal" status. As long as you don't pop pods, you can blow up lots and lots of non-outlaw gankers before you even hit -2.0.

Think of it like vigilante justice if that helps. Sure, according to the law, Batman is a Bad Guy, and should go to prison....

And yeah, if they're already blinky, blast away. Free target.


The issue is more than the security status hit. Not all of us have +5 sec status. This is an issue of the design and context of the problem. Not a black and white answer.

Give people more tools in HS to take on people that act like criminals BEFORE they gank. Stop waiting for them start the action and stop them in the 3 seconds before its done and the pop their victim. Allow people more ways to get them earlier.

This is why I use the analogy of the FBI and most wanted list in a normal public place with police around...


You have the tools, you just refuse the use them.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#406 - 2014-06-18 14:41:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:

So, the only thing stopping you from shooting a non-outlaw ganker is the sec status hit? Honestly, it really isn't that big a deal. See above, I took my +5 alt out, blew up a random miner, and went to 4.8. Nowhere near the -5.0 "criminal" status. As long as you don't pop pods, you can blow up lots and lots of non-outlaw gankers before you even hit -2.0.

Think of it like vigilante justice if that helps. Sure, according to the law, Batman is a Bad Guy, and should go to prison....

And yeah, if they're already blinky, blast away. Free target.


The issue is more than the security status hit. Not all of us have +5 sec status. This is an issue of the design and context of the problem. Not a black and white answer.

Give people more tools in HS to take on people that act like criminals BEFORE they gank. Stop waiting for them start the action and stop them in the 3 seconds before its done and the pop their victim. Allow people more ways to get them earlier.

This is why I use the analogy of the FBI and most wanted list in a normal public place with police around...


Easy one.
Double or triple Concord response time.
That would give people plenty of time to shoot at gankers before they are popped by godlike NPCs.

More tools to engage players BEFORE they are flagged with a GCC?
Wow, I'd love to have that tool. I'd put it to really good use.

"Yeah, that Miner, he was totally going to go GCC - I totally had to grease him!"
Lady Areola Fappington
#407 - 2014-06-18 14:43:04 UTC
Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:

The issue is more than the security status hit. Not all of us have +5 sec status. This is an issue of the design and context of the problem. Not a black and white answer.

Give people more tools in HS to take on people that act like criminals BEFORE they gank. Stop waiting for them start the action and stop them in the 3 seconds before its done and the pop their victim. Allow people more ways to get them earlier.

This is why I use the analogy of the FBI and most wanted list in a normal public place with police around...



As I said, the sec status hit is tiny. I'm not sure if CCP has changed it since I last looked, but...it's ~2.0%. Small. Podding is what hammers your sec status.

You could very easily take a mission running alt, go preemptively gank the rare non-flashy gankers, then go back to running missions and grind that sec status right back up.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Lady Areola Fappington
#408 - 2014-06-18 14:44:54 UTC
Chil wrote:


Ah, so look for the NPC corp player who looks like CODE should have ganked them but haven't?



Sounds about right, yeah! If you see a guy just parked on a gate (double points if it's a scanning ship), just...sitting there, and it's a popular pipe for freighters to use, you can almost be sure he's a scout scanning for a gank team up ahead.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#409 - 2014-06-18 14:46:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:


Scouts aren't TOO difficult to ID. Look for a guy a couple jumps away from the action, sitting on a gate for no real reason.

You can be even more sure if you see em cloak/decloak as freighters warp in.
Adding to this, in the case of freighter gankers the scout is normally the guy in a frigate that yellowboxes you and scans your cargo/fit a couple of jumps before you get to a choke point, some may use passive targeters which isn't so obvious but many don't.

Situational awareness is important, unfortunately for some it actually requires paying attention to the game they're supposedly playing.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
#410 - 2014-06-18 14:52:56 UTC
Kalon Horan wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:



For what purpose, by the time they warp in the target is already history? And concord are already destroying the gankers One cannot target the scouts haulers etc etc that make it possible as a mechanic.

So how does that inconvinience the gankers in any way?


As stated before... little me alone prevented quite a few suicide kills yesterday by shooting the gankers b4 they can blow up their target.

What stops other people to do the same? I can tell you what stops them... they can not fatten their wallet by doing it.



Did you take a security hit for shooting the ganker before they attacked the victim?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#411 - 2014-06-18 14:59:53 UTC
Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:
Kalon Horan wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:



For what purpose, by the time they warp in the target is already history? And concord are already destroying the gankers One cannot target the scouts haulers etc etc that make it possible as a mechanic.

So how does that inconvinience the gankers in any way?


As stated before... little me alone prevented quite a few suicide kills yesterday by shooting the gankers b4 they can blow up their target.

What stops other people to do the same? I can tell you what stops them... they can not fatten their wallet by doing it.



Did you take a security hit for shooting the ganker before they attacked the victim?


Given that most are -10 I would say unlikely.

However, nothing is stopping you from ganking a ganker.
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#412 - 2014-06-18 15:00:17 UTC
How about the dev's fly freighters for a month. Then we will see if they actually understand.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#413 - 2014-06-18 15:00:44 UTC
Chil wrote:
How would one go about ID'ing the ganker support vessels (scouts) without adding to the "event"? Would think it's about as easy as finding (for example) your missioning alt?


its just not required.

You can convoy freighters, which will literally force the gankers hand, (in a perfect world where all freighter pilots agree to convoy, they'd all fly at the same time)

Then gankers would need to deal with these 10 freighters AND their escort right now, and expect no more freighters for 6 hours after that, and then you also make the gankers GCC a painful thing, and it also economizes on escorts per freighter. Can be less escorts than freighters, and engagement rules are really favourable for escorts, and any concentration of escorts will make bumping freighters harder, and escorts are insured.

ie I'd not like to try bump a freighter away with 5 hurricanes colliding with me. It pretty much won't work, and I can't call on -10s to come help, because 5 hurricanes will unload on any -10s the moment they arrive.

Redfrog is an obvious vehicle for being organized enough to institute convoy if required. Really doesn't stop the game if solo operators are uneconomic through losses or needing too many escorts per freighter.

There is one absolutely certainty in any war on freighters, the freighters dictate the time and location of the fighting. The gankers have to wait.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#414 - 2014-06-18 15:02:32 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:
How about the dev's fly freighters for a month. Then we will see if they actually understand.


Given that out of millions of trips made by freighters every month only a few dosen die I would say they will have a rather univentful time.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#415 - 2014-06-18 15:03:21 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:
How about the dev's fly freighters for a month. Then we will see if they actually understand.


Put plex in freighter, autopilot, run internal office betting sweeps on whether this one will get through by itself.

These are CCP devs we are talking about!
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#416 - 2014-06-18 15:04:51 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:
How about the dev's fly freighters for a month. Then we will see if they actually understand.
I would hope that Devs aren't silly enough to be autopiloting their freighters through known choke points or other systems that show on the map as a big red blob because of the amount of people exploding there Roll

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#417 - 2014-06-18 15:07:02 UTC
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
KIller Wabbit wrote:
How about the dev's fly freighters for a month. Then we will see if they actually understand.
I would hope that Devs aren't silly enough to be autopiloting their freighters through known choke points or other systems that show on the map as a big red blob because of the amount of people exploding there Roll


I just want them to actually fly it like players do. AP, hand flying it, whatever. But for a month, and for runs of at least 15 jumps. Back and forth to trade hubs would be just fine. They don't have a clue of what they have been screwing with.
DJentropy Ovaert
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#418 - 2014-06-18 15:11:22 UTC  |  Edited by: DJentropy Ovaert
KIller Wabbit wrote:
How about the dev's fly freighters for a month. Then we will see if they actually understand.


How much you want to bet that as a Dev they will actually be at the keyboard and working with a advanced scout and perhaps even a webbing friend to help keep them safe?

I'd bet that as a Dev who understands the social nature of Eve Online, the chance is very high.

Insist on flying hulls worth nearly 1.5 billion *and* often add tons of juicy loot on top, set that auto and go on the trip totally alone without even paying attention to anything around you, without bothering to check the map to make sure your route does not take you right through a freaking war zone ..... the player in questions gets what he deserves and hopefully will learn to not make the same mistake again.

Most of the tears that I see seem to come from freighters assuming that fitting triple bulkheads = a free pass to disregard sanity, go totally AFK, and just assume that a hour or two later they will arrive at their destination alive and turn a profit.

EVE already gives us some great ways to make money while AFK, it's called PI and Market Trading. If a players plan for making cash involves being in space and AFK - it is nothing but my pleasure to help educate them on the folly of their ways.

(Edit: Corrected a simple grammar error)
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#419 - 2014-06-18 15:14:56 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
KIller Wabbit wrote:
How about the dev's fly freighters for a month. Then we will see if they actually understand.
I would hope that Devs aren't silly enough to be autopiloting their freighters through known choke points or other systems that show on the map as a big red blob because of the amount of people exploding there Roll


I just want them to actually fly it like players do. AP, hand flying it, whatever. But for a month, and for runs of at least 15 jumps. Back and forth to trade hubs would be just fine. They don't have a clue of what they have been screwing with.
Devs tend to be seasoned Eve players who understand the nature of the game, why would they play Eve in way that goes against everything they know?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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#420 - 2014-06-18 15:18:02 UTC
DJentropy Ovaert wrote:
KIller Wabbit wrote:
How about the dev's fly freighters for a month. Then we will see if they actually understand.

Most of the tears that I see seem to come from freighters assuming that fitting triple bulkheads = a free pass to disregard sanity, go totally AFK, and just assume that a hour or two later they will arrive at their destination alive and turn a profit.


I'm not entirely sure, but I think he meant to address exactly this (bolded and underlined). Many of the victim posts in this (and many other threads) are simply based on the fact that a tedious, time consuming and ultimately boring "chore" of a hauling is made dangerous and even more hated activity because of the many suicide gankers, while on the other hand fun is involved in ganking. Read the "victim" posts in this light, you'll be amazed of the results Smile