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[Future Release] Removing Wh systems from the map/kills EVE API

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Angsty Teenager
Broski North
#121 - 2014-05-06 18:42:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Angsty Teenager
CCP FoxFour wrote:
This discussion was originally started here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4556962#post4556962

That was a bit of a mistake on my part, I should have made a new thread for it. Sorry about that.

Before we continue this discussion a few words from me.

We do really care about the health of this game and we rely on you guys to give us feedback on changes we are looking at making. That is why both this forum post and the one linked above were made. To get feedback. You will notice that at no point have I given a specific release date because I really want to make sure we get the required feedback and act accordingly.

The gist of the change is that we would like to remove information about NPC kills for wormhole systems in the API.

The reason we're proposing this change: This is data that is available via the API but not in the client in any way. That goes directly against the design of the API and a core rule of it. We are aware that it has been like this for a while but need to make sure we are continuing to iterate on things, even old things, and bring them in line with expectations.

That is the core reason for this change, there are some other smaller ones but that is the big one. We are of course open to discussing how this information should be available in the client and how we reconcile that available knowledge with the goal that wormhole space should be mysterious and unknown. If this brought into the client we would of course be willing to bring it back to the API as well. This is the same reason why we also removed the jump data from the API for WH systems some time ago.

So, lets continue this discussion here and see where this goes. :) Love you all and no matter how mad you might be at me I do appreciate all your feedback! :D


Ugh the forums ate my post.

Look CCP FoxFour. I don't see the issue. The argument you are making is that "it's not in the client so we don't want it at all". Why can't you just add it to the client?

This change is a bad change. Wormhole's don't have enough activity to remove the NPC kills data, which is, if anything, data that tells whether or not people in a wormhole are active currently. Unlike k-space, it's not possible to easily gather intel without committing a character to the wormhole in question. You will likely have to stay for a full day and you won't be able to go out your wormhole entrance since it will have collapsed by the time you have complete data on who lives there and when they play (If they even play at all). Then you have to scan your way back out through a new chain and come back in to your main hole, or find a way to get in theirs.

I hope you also realize the only thing this change does is basically keep WH farmers more safe. Tell me why this is a good thing? Do you think that a guy multiboxing 5 characters should be able to make 3 bil/hour in complete safety? Having done it myself, I think it's hilariously broken. It's so broken because it's virtually impossible to be caught. Right now you can get caught by a login trap, which is mostly based on seeing whether somebody is active using NPC kills, OR you can get rolled into by a gank fleet.

Having rolled many wormholes myself, I can tell you that the chance of rolling into somebody running sites is very low, and even if you do, they have a good chance of getting out since you have to spend 2-3 minutes warping your dreads into positions, scanning them, getting a bubble up, etc...

However, your change leaves the latter as basically the only viable option for killing farmers. Are you trying to tell me that you think rolling a wormhole for hours on end is what CCP believes in as a vision for what w-space should be? Or are you trying to say that you think farmers shouldn't be ganked.

You may argue that now anybody looking to kill farmers will have to leave a scout alt in the system to scout it, but frankly this is not reasonable as there are MANY MANY wormholes with active POS's, but inactive residents, so in most cases, a scout alt will simply be a waste of time. Even with the NPC kills right now, and my placement of scout alts in historically active systems, some of them are completely useless because the people in those wormholes just decided to be inactive.

This change is a bad change, you will be seeing a flood of farmers in w-space with no viable method of catching most of them.
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#122 - 2014-05-06 18:43:47 UTC
Since people are claiming this change is only not liked by the large WH-corps I am going to post here as a solo or very small group wh-hunter.
PvP via ragerolling got pretty much shut down by the instant discovery scanner and was the biggest boost to Wh ratting since T2 siege. For many pvpers that was a big push towards leaving J-space.
Taking the jumps/h from the API was actually a nice boost for PvP, since farmers couldn´t check anymore via dotlan if they had connecting WHs.

If you now take away the kills from the API you make solohunting (well, almost all hunting) practically impossible. Right now 30 seconds on google will give anyone a possibility for timezones when someone might be active in a system. If it is a good timeframe for my playtime I can use it, otherwise this information does nothing. Without it the only way to find activity would be to sit 24/7 in a system and write down when someone is playing. Yeah, that sounds like fun gameplay.
More likely this will be the last nail to the coffin of actual hunting and sneaking up on people in this game. What is way more fun than sitting on a gate for an hour and F1 everything coming through.

Also this change makes it benefitial to not recruit new players. For example a useful corpdescription like "we are a recruiting EU-TZ corp" gives you the same information as a quick look at activity in system in the last 48h. Taking the info away from the API will lead to most corps also removing any other trace of their active timeframe.

While I get the thought behind this change of ingame<>API information it really shouldn´t be fixed by taking it away, but by making it available ingame.
I´m pretty certain noone has a problem with only getting delayed for a few hours data.


Querns wrote:
To be clear here, I'm not necessarily arguing against the ability for wormhole dwellers to more efficiently collect intelligence data about their surroundings. I am, however, against this data being collected over the whole of wormhole space, automatically, at extremely low cost. Any changes that aid the ability for hunter/killers in wormhole space to gather information MUST be constrained to only work on the systems that they can physically reach, or otherwise must have some sort of human component that limits their effectiveness in such a matter. Providing perfect information about all of wormhole space is clearly broken and simply incentivizes rolling holes until ham comes out.


That is actually not really a point since I cannot do anything with intel about a system I have no access to. I need it to be in my chain since I cannot portal my ships in there via a magical cyno or a static 100% reliable gate.
John Caldr
Inner Hell
#123 - 2014-05-06 18:44:56 UTC
Thor66777 wrote:

Didn't realize Quantum Explosion represented all of wormhole space pvp'ers.


You did not care to read the threads I presume, this one and first one. There are plenty of alliance representatives saying same things.


Thor66777 wrote:


Quote:
- you can farm 80billions in few days with just few hours per day and only 2 people. now we can stop it, after change - we would not be able to)


You can still do that, but you actually have to work and scout for that NPC information rather than just getting it from a out of game source instantly. This is wormhole space the unknown is what we are about. So adapt or die.


Farming means killing NPCs, in case you dont know it yet. It was about how much isks carebears can make. Safely, after this change.
Nbonga
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#124 - 2014-05-06 18:45:30 UTC
Great news, that's all Cool
Masaru Sora
Doomheim
#125 - 2014-05-06 18:46:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Masaru Sora
Well if you remove those information, I think a lot of WH PvP Corps will be pretty pissed, for the right reasons.

I for my part will probably quit the game if you introduce this change.
You keep making WH space more and more preferable for carebears.
You made promises of POS Changes and Personal Ship Maintenance Arrays as a substitute measure til they arrive and you keep delaying it. There are serious issues you could address and instead you think about such crap?

When will you understand that WH-Space is a completely different game style from Null-Sec and that Null-Sec isn't the Endgame/content for everybody?
You keep destroying your sand box game style, a concept which I really liked about Eve. And you keep pushing everything towards Nullsec.
I've lived in Nullsec for some time and I prefer WH space. It's different! It's not better, not worse. Just different. So stop ruining it!

If your explanation for the removal lies in the missing ingame content: ADD A DECENT INGAME WH MAP!

Seriously, by this reason you should completely remove the NPC/Kills from ALL SPACE, not just WH space.
I don't know anybody who uses your shi.tty ingame map. I know you can avoid systems with recent kills, but that's about it. The ingame map is so chaotic that it is mostly unuseable.
Almost everybody I know relies on Dotlan anyways, even more so in Nullsec and Lowsec.

What a shi.tty excuse for yet another nullsec buff. Good thing that WH corps are represented "fairly" in the CSM.
First you ruined exploration for me (and several people I know), with Odyssey, now that? Thanks for nothing. Guess I won't be renewing my subscription for a while, just to be safe.

The most important aspects have already been mentioned. It's hard enough already to find content in W-Space. Less make it even less. Great Idea, CCP.
War Fairy
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#126 - 2014-05-06 18:48:29 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:


Would you continue to preemptively remove it from the API due to the fact that you dislike its presentation in an out-of-game tool, owed solely to the failure on CCP's part to provide an in-game one?


This is incorrect. CCP did not fail to provide an in-game one. They chose not to by design.

To explain a different way. The exposure via API is the mistake. The client not showing it is correct.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#127 - 2014-05-06 18:49:47 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Max Kolonko wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:


The gist of the change is that we would like to remove information about NPC kills for wormhole systems in the API.


Just to be clear, this is only for NPC kills and not ship/pod kills?


Well we would remove that but you can just go and get it from zKill or something and be about 96% accurate anyways.

Not true. I frequently see ship/pod losses on staticmapper that don't show up on zKillboard.
John Caldr
Inner Hell
#128 - 2014-05-06 18:50:14 UTC
MS10NVY wrote:

Tell me how hard it is to kill PVE caps usually multiboxed? Judging by your own killboards bloody easy aint it?


Strange thing, its easy only accoring to our killboard, and BU one. May be you just miss the "skill" and "hard work to get results" parts?
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
#129 - 2014-05-06 18:50:26 UTC
I think a good follow up to this would be we don't appear in k-space local if we enter it via a wormhole. The unknown is where it's at

No trolling please

Napoleon Aldent
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2014-05-06 18:52:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Napoleon Aldent
Andski wrote:
Napoleon Aldent wrote:
Confirming that intel gathering by putting a bot with local open in a Twitch feed is more involved than looking at Dotlan.


Even if this did happen on a regular basis (it doesn't) it requires somebody to actually set up in the system being monitored.


Please... I did my time in CFC leadership. During ops in regions around Venal, FCs wanted 23/7 Twitch coverage of the 6NJ and K3J undocks with local visible so they could monitor BL and 401k activity. Whether you are doing it during peacetime right now or not, doesn't matter. You do it and you abuse it just like every other game mechanic in Eve. The real question here is, why are you and the other Goon posters so vested in a change which doesn't effect you at all. What is your motive for being here. Certainly you don't have any compassion or concern for those living in wormholes - especially the farmers who stand to benefit. So what's your angle?

Our angle is that we care about objective game balance, regardless of who it benefits or hurts.  -Goonswarm 2014

Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#131 - 2014-05-06 18:53:03 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:

In the case of this information however, design has SPECIFICALLY said we do NOT want it in the client. We feel it takes away from what wormholes are designed to be, a place of unknowns.

Again the crux of this change is that the information is in no way available in the client. This is not an API that makes getting this information easier or without travel, this just does NOT exist in the client.

I will be bringing up the idea of this information being made available in the client with the rest of the design department, but those I have talked to throughout the day have agreed it should not be. That being said not everyone is in today.


And as I said, if the "place of unknowns" part was really true, I would be OK with removing the API. The issue is that in fact it is very, very known exactly how to kill Sleepers, which is what is creating the current farming problem.

All I am asking for is you to fix both problems at the same time. Make farming harder and then you can make it harder to find farmers.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Cheekything
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2014-05-06 18:54:02 UTC
Honesty straight up removing it would just be a bad idea since people will complain that it will make farmers hard to catch and will make the general experience stale so unless you can make some sort of deployable that can do it for you it might not be worth the drama of removing it.

Delay is the ideal solution as everyone wins.

However I ask that you would go one step further in your api changes to enrich the player experience (and slightly off topic) to just ask that they delay all Player and NPC based information by 1 day using a snapshot (downtime to downtime)

As you said yourself CCP FoxFour, we can easily get player based kills from zKill etc which I think is again a better idea as it involves players using combined knowledge to achieve, however jumps per hour, npc kills per hour and ship kill per hour stats being so easy to interpret is I believe hindering the scouting experience by making it boring.

It far to easy to look at this information and see where people are "carebearing" actively in the current moment rather than a snapshot of the day. This means players are less likely to try and learn the habits of their targets but look at dotlan or the in game map and go "oh someone is ratting there". Players should be forced to scout and gain recon on their targets, try and get a idea of their habits from experience not "oh this guy rats in this system from 08:00-11:00 because the dotlan graph tells me this" or "I can tell that 10 people are ratting in this system from the amount of NPC kills in the last 3 hours".

This may sound like a personal gripe and it is, when I started playing Eve there was no dotlan or any other tools, people didn't bother to check the map every hour to see what the chagnes where (well no one would do it for every system in game at the same time) and the scouting experience was really fun which is now something that is now lost and maybe should take a comeback with the new ceptor changes.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#133 - 2014-05-06 18:55:10 UTC
Two step wrote:

And as I said, if the "place of unknowns" part was really true, I would be OK with removing the API. The issue is that in fact it is very, very known exactly how to kill Sleepers, which is what is creating the current farming problem.

All I am asking for is you to fix both problems at the same time. Make farming harder and then you can make it harder to find farmers.

People doing PvE in wormholes is a problem? I'd like to hear why.

NOTE: The dilution of your ability to make money in a wormhole because others are doing it is a very poor reason.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#134 - 2014-05-06 18:56:06 UTC
Napoleon Aldent wrote:
Andski wrote:
Napoleon Aldent wrote:
Confirming that intel gathering by putting a bot with local open in a Twitch feed is more involved than looking at Dotlan.


Even if this did happen on a regular basis (it doesn't) it requires somebody to actually set up in the system being monitored.


Please... I did my time in CFC leadership. During ops in regions around Venal, FCs wanted 23/7 Twitch coverage of the 6NJ and K3J undocks with local visible so they could monitor BL and 401k activity. Whether you are doing it during peacetime right now or not, doesn't matter. You do it and you abuse it just like every other game mechanic in Eve. The real question here is, why are you and the other Goon posters so vested in a change which doesn't effect you at all. What is your motive for being here. Certainly you don't have any compassion or concern for those living in wormholes - especially the farmers who stand to benefit. So what's your angle?

Our angle is that we care about objective game balance, regardless of who it benefits or hurts.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Tetsuo Tsukaya
Perkone
Caldari State
#135 - 2014-05-06 18:57:54 UTC
Nooonnnnnoooo notme wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
One of the biggest things we expect this to impact is log off traps. Most people I have talked to before posting this idea agreed that this data was most valuable for finding people to log off trap. People also agreed it was marginally helpful in finding live fights, but not very helpful in that way and most agreed they could easily find a way to adapt.

whoever gave you this opinion is very accurate. trust them in the future.


For sure they definitely weren't people from a null carebear alliance who want to make it impossible to did out what holes they have caps logged off in for farming purposes. It definitely wouldn't be in their best interest to make sure that a tool that would attract scouts to watch their hole is removed from the game so they can go on farming in peace with no connection to any other wormhole entities.

GGWP CCP
RudinV
The Dozen
3200.
#136 - 2014-05-06 18:58:05 UTC  |  Edited by: RudinV
buy plexes right now, cash all ur assets and buy. if CCP will keep this idea of wspace carebear`s paradise plex will go far above 1b, and nanoribs below 1m.
but funny thing is that carebears will suffer anywayTwisted
Btw am i only one around here who think that goonies wh eviction is connected with this 5 years old mistake fixing?
MS10NVY
eXceed Inc.
Plucky Adventurers
#137 - 2014-05-06 18:59:49 UTC
John Caldr wrote:
MS10NVY wrote:

Tell me how hard it is to kill PVE caps usually multiboxed? Judging by your own killboards bloody easy aint it?


Strange thing, its easy only accoring to our killboard, and BU one. May be you just miss the "skill" and "hard work to get results" parts?


We've done it too a few times... When we've done it tho we chose to involve more ppl not less with more alts... it's just a different aproach really and we don't do "just" that.

I think the consensus in NOHO is that we enjoy fights where the enemy can actually put up a fight or actually beat us. Not RNK style 95% chance to win from the start of the fight engagements :)

I admire your stamina tho don't get me wrong it takes dedication to do as much rolling as you do we tend to be a bit more lazy, but saying it takes skill and doing ONLY that... still seems dull to me, but to each his own :)
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#138 - 2014-05-06 19:01:54 UTC
Napoleon Aldent wrote:
Andski wrote:
Napoleon Aldent wrote:
Confirming that intel gathering by putting a bot with local open in a Twitch feed is more involved than looking at Dotlan.


Even if this did happen on a regular basis (it doesn't) it requires somebody to actually set up in the system being monitored.


Please... I did my time in CFC leadership. During ops in regions around Venal, FCs wanted 23/7 Twitch coverage of the 6NJ and K3J undocks with local visible so they could monitor BL and 401k activity. Whether you are doing it during peacetime right now or not, doesn't matter. You do it and you abuse it just like every other game mechanic in Eve. The real question here is, why are you and the other Goon posters so vested in a change which doesn't effect you at all. What is your motive for being here. Certainly you don't have any compassion or concern for those living in wormholes - especially the farmers who stand to benefit. So what's your angle?


Did you just seriously compare API automation with putting physical characters in systems and doing actual scouting?

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Cosmic Scanner
Ehefkae
#139 - 2014-05-06 19:02:07 UTC
John Caldr wrote:
MS10NVY wrote:

Tell me how hard it is to kill PVE caps usually multiboxed? Judging by your own killboards bloody easy aint it?


Strange thing, its easy only accoring to our killboard, and BU one. May be you just miss the "skill" and "hard work to get results" parts?


Maybe we don't want to just rely on npc kill stats and multiple capital alts to get all our w-space kills Blink

Cosmic Scanner / muu lufragga

Nooonnnnnoooo notme
Doomheim
#140 - 2014-05-06 19:02:40 UTC
these guys run sites at 22:00ish

nah that's an hour later than i'd like, roll it.

...comrade