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[Future Release] Removing Wh systems from the map/kills EVE API

First post First post
Author
Dagda Morr
Gladiators of Rage
The Initiative.
#141 - 2014-05-06 19:03:29 UTC
Isn't the entire point of wormhole space supposed to balance the incredible riches with the danger off the unknown? Players have been smart enough to dig beneath the bonnet of eve and get access to information that ccp clearly feel is at odds with that element of the unknown - seems logical to me that they would want to patch this out. Surely wormholers chose this element of not knowing what was at the end of their static long before the mapping software was developed? It's not like anything has been removed that people were ok without.

Also - if you can't find pvp its not that wormholes have bad mechanics, it's that players are risk adverse.
John Caldr
Inner Hell
#142 - 2014-05-06 19:04:46 UTC
MS10NVY wrote:

I admire your stamina tho don't get me wrong it takes dedication to do as much rolling as you do we tend to be a bit more lazy, but saying it takes skill and doing ONLY that... still seems dull to me, but to each his own :)


We cant find decent targets to engage in our timezone despite an intensive rolling/scouting. WHs are almost dead during this time. So we just explore all the options for PVP to get kills ) And yes, to get results on constant basis it requires a bit of skill )
Angsty Teenager
Broski North
#143 - 2014-05-06 19:04:50 UTC
RudinV wrote:
buy plexes right now, cash all ur assets and buy. if CCP will keep this idea of wspace carebear`s paradise plex will go far above 1b, and nanoribs below 1m.
but funny thing is that carebears will suffer anywayTwisted
Btw am i only one around here who think that goonies wh eviction is connected with this 5 years old mistake fixing?


This.

My god, anybody thinks this is a good change is one of the following. Please check which applies to you.

-A farmer who doesn't care about w-space except for it's isk potential
-Somebody who is jealous of people doing logoff traps, but isn't doing it for some reason (doesn't have friends to do it with, or isn't willing to put in the effort?)
-Somebody who doesn't actually play in w-space but an opinion anyway

Angsty Teenager
Broski North
#144 - 2014-05-06 19:06:19 UTC
Nooonnnnnoooo notme wrote:
these guys run sites at 22:00ish

nah that's an hour later than i'd like, roll it.

...comrade


Since you've never actually done a logoff trap, let me assure you that it takes a lot of rolling to find an active farming wormhole. You have no idea what you're talking about.
MS10NVY
eXceed Inc.
Plucky Adventurers
#145 - 2014-05-06 19:06:56 UTC
John Caldr wrote:
MS10NVY wrote:

I admire your stamina tho don't get me wrong it takes dedication to do as much rolling as you do we tend to be a bit more lazy, but saying it takes skill and doing ONLY that... still seems dull to me, but to each his own :)


We cant find decent targets to engage in our timezone despite an intensive rolling/scouting. WHs are almost dead during this time. So we just explore all the options for PVP to get kills ) And yes, to get results on constant basis it requires a bit of skill )


Might be :) but i'd say a good 1/3 of your kills is out of your timezone. We've had nice fights with your ex alliance mates Jedi Path a few times in RUS tz.

It can happen if there's a will there's a way.
RudinV
The Dozen
3200.
#146 - 2014-05-06 19:10:04 UTC
Cosmic Scanner wrote:
John Caldr wrote:
MS10NVY wrote:

Tell me how hard it is to kill PVE caps usually multiboxed? Judging by your own killboards bloody easy aint it?


Strange thing, its easy only accoring to our killboard, and BU one. May be you just miss the "skill" and "hard work to get results" parts?


Maybe we don't want to just rely on npc kill stats and multiple capital alts to get all our w-space kills Blink

anyway to call our stuff "easy thing" is not the right attitude m8. Or u wanna say that silly carebears who cant fit properly/refit/farm safier are our fault? anyway this thread is not about wh pvp tactics and pointing on one another, its about making another buff to carebears. Main idea why we against was mentioned before: do not nerf content creators in sandbox game, or may be u wanna read epic article at TMC " how i multiboxed in c6 for 3 days and now i have a titan!"
Nooonnnnnoooo notme
Doomheim
#147 - 2014-05-06 19:10:18 UTC
Angsty Teenager wrote:
Nooonnnnnoooo notme wrote:
these guys run sites at 22:00ish

nah that's an hour later than i'd like, roll it.

...comrade


Since you've never actually done a logoff trap, let me assure you that it takes a lot of rolling to find an active farming wormhole. You have no idea what you're talking about.

I haven't done much of anything, I was born today.

I get where you're coming from, and why you see this as negative. But at worst it's inconvenient. You can still build the same intel with watch list, it just won't be cached for you.
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#148 - 2014-05-06 19:11:04 UTC
Querns wrote:
Two step wrote:

And as I said, if the "place of unknowns" part was really true, I would be OK with removing the API. The issue is that in fact it is very, very known exactly how to kill Sleepers, which is what is creating the current farming problem.

All I am asking for is you to fix both problems at the same time. Make farming harder and then you can make it harder to find farmers.

People doing PvE in wormholes is a problem? I'd like to hear why.

NOTE: The dilution of your ability to make money in a wormhole because others are doing it is a very poor reason.


I'm sorry, but perhaps you are not aware that the only fing reason to do PVE in this game is to make money. Certainly my arguments about why people shouldn't be able to do nearly risk-free PVE are going to involve money.

I will try to use little words, since you seem to be not getting it. People doing PVE with little risk is bad. Wormholes are big risk, big rewards. You are supposed to have all your ships and assets at risk to be able to make ISK from C5/6 sites. Farmers don't do this. If their POS gets popped, they don't care, and just wait a week to log in.

The farming doesn't just hurt the big groups, in fact it hurts us far less. 95% or so of our income is from the blue books from Sleepers. The little guys in C1-3 space are the ones hurt the most by this, because now their Sleeper salvage is just about worthless.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#149 - 2014-05-06 19:11:22 UTC
Angsty Teenager wrote:
Since you've never actually done a logoff trap, let me assure you that it takes a lot of rolling to find an active farming wormhole. You have no idea what you're talking about.


Yes, but you already know which wormholes are "active farming wormholes" through API data.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Proclus Diadochu
Mar Sarrim
Red Coat Conspiracy
#150 - 2014-05-06 19:13:51 UTC
Andski wrote:
This is a good change. Intelligence gathering should be made an involved, active process wherever possible.


Agreed. We should remove local as well.

Minister of High Society | Twitter: @autoritare

E-mail: [email protected]

My Blog: http://diogenes-club.blogspot.com/

The Diogenes Club | Join W-Space | Down The Pipe

Ron Mexxico
ElitistOps
Goonswarm Federation
#151 - 2014-05-06 19:14:00 UTC
HTC NecoSino wrote:
BadAssMcKill wrote:
Can't wait to be completely safe in my C5 Big smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smile

More iskies for my toonies TwistedTwistedTwistedTwisted


I'm not sure that this is going to play out well.. In fact I'm pretty sure it will just lead to a lot more system burns.
Enjoy your shinies.

made you redeploy

this is an excellent change and long overdue. congrats ccp for getting something right ))
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#152 - 2014-05-06 19:17:04 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
We do really care about the health of this game and we rely on you guys to give us feedback on changes we are looking at making. That is why both this forum post and the one linked above were made. To get feedback. You will notice that at no point have I given a specific release date because I really want to make sure we get the required feedback and act accordingly.

Could you share some of that sensibility with the people working on the Kronos release? They've announced a June 3rd release date even though they haven't figured out what to do with POSes yet, and some of their proposed changes have really ugly warts on them. They seem hell-bent on wrecking POS science (the "S" in "S&I") and are swinging, simultaneously, the nerf & buff bats at the POS industry (the "I" part) like a drunken mariachi at a quinceañera.

MDD
MS10NVY
eXceed Inc.
Plucky Adventurers
#153 - 2014-05-06 19:17:09 UTC
RudinV wrote:
Cosmic Scanner wrote:
John Caldr wrote:
MS10NVY wrote:

Tell me how hard it is to kill PVE caps usually multiboxed? Judging by your own killboards bloody easy aint it?


Strange thing, its easy only accoring to our killboard, and BU one. May be you just miss the "skill" and "hard work to get results" parts?


Maybe we don't want to just rely on npc kill stats and multiple capital alts to get all our w-space kills Blink

anyway to call our stuff "easy thing" is not the right attitude m8. Or u wanna say that silly carebears who cant fit properly/refit/farm safier are our fault? anyway this thread is not about wh pvp tactics and pointing on one another, its about making another buff to carebears. Main idea why we against was mentioned before: do not nerf content creators in sandbox game, or may be u wanna read epic article at TMC " how i multiboxed in c6 for 3 days and now i have a titan!"


Not really the place to discuss this i agree :) But this situation gives you the chance to adapt and or put some more work into it.
I very much respect you guys and your "sister" corp/alliance for what you do but it seems a bit like a one trick pony.
This change forces you to change your play a little. With more work into it you will have the same results i'm sure and feel much better for it because i belive even for you it gets boring to do the same old same old :) i mean the dmg done is epic and the tears are awesome indeed but everything gets repetitive.

The more work you have to put in something the better you feel when you accomplish it.

I by no means take away from your way of setting up kills with the bare minimum required :) but you have to admit most bearing crews are easy to kill with the right setup.
Jezza McWaffle
Epicentre Syndicate
The Singularity.
#154 - 2014-05-06 19:17:45 UTC
Andski wrote:
Angsty Teenager wrote:
Since you've never actually done a logoff trap, let me assure you that it takes a lot of rolling to find an active farming wormhole. You have no idea what you're talking about.


Yes, but you already know which wormholes are "active farming wormholes" through API data.


Do you know how many are involved though? No.
Do you know they will run sites at that exact time? No.

The NPC kills are a great way of showing some potential farmers but you still need to do alot of background work and scouting to make a successful log off trap or gank. As the guys from Quantum have said and linked to in previous posts, its very easy to defend against log off traps, farmers just don't bother because:
A. Stupids
B. Farming is ridiculously safe
C. Isk efficiency

Wormholes worst badass | Checkout my Wormhole blog

Major Ream
#155 - 2014-05-06 19:18:24 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Max Kolonko wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:


The gist of the change is that we would like to remove information about NPC kills for wormhole systems in the API.


Just to be clear, this is only for NPC kills and not ship/pod kills?


Well we would remove that but you can just go and get it from zKill or something and be about 96% accurate anyways.



Actually, maybe you could?
Just alter the killmails to say "Unknown Space" instead of J###### for the system.


ofc I have no idea how deep one has to go into the Rabbit Hole of Eve code to make this happen.
Winthorp
#156 - 2014-05-06 19:18:27 UTC
I would like to participate in this discussion further and when CCP FoxFour can say sorry for abusing me for my opinion on this forum rather then getting further mad he was simply caught out doing it due to me qouting him then i will get back to the issue.
John Caldr
Inner Hell
#157 - 2014-05-06 19:18:29 UTC
Ron Mexxico wrote:
this is an excellent change and long overdue. congrats ccp for getting something right ))



I guess it sarcasm. Farmers store nothing on poses and dont care about them. So it hardly affects bad people. Only normal players. And - in a bad way.
HTC NecoSino
Suddenly Carebears
Singularity Syndicate
#158 - 2014-05-06 19:19:12 UTC
RudinV wrote:
Btw am i only one around here who think that goonies wh eviction is connected with this 5 years old mistake fixing?


No you are not alone in that
Napoleon Aldent
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2014-05-06 19:20:23 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Napoleon Aldent wrote:
Andski wrote:
Napoleon Aldent wrote:
Confirming that intel gathering by putting a bot with local open in a Twitch feed is more involved than looking at Dotlan.


Even if this did happen on a regular basis (it doesn't) it requires somebody to actually set up in the system being monitored.


Please... I did my time in CFC leadership. During ops in regions around Venal, FCs wanted 23/7 Twitch coverage of the 6NJ and K3J undocks with local visible so they could monitor BL and 401k activity. Whether you are doing it during peacetime right now or not, doesn't matter. You do it and you abuse it just like every other game mechanic in Eve. The real question here is, why are you and the other Goon posters so vested in a change which doesn't effect you at all. What is your motive for being here. Certainly you don't have any compassion or concern for those living in wormholes - especially the farmers who stand to benefit. So what's your angle?


Did you just seriously compare API automation with putting physical characters in systems and doing actual scouting?


Don't pretend that the person running the feed is "scouting". The entire point of the feed is so the person can go AFK and let other people monitor the system by just looking at the Twitch feed. It requires no more effort than looking at Dotlan and seeing what the NPC kills are.

Our angle is that we care about objective game balance, regardless of who it benefits or hurts.  -Goonswarm 2014

MaxDEL
Quantum Explosion
#160 - 2014-05-06 19:20:30 UTC
Why Goons in this topic and people are not related to the WH, who build their assumptions from the air?

Now we say that WH important statistics as well as on other systems K-Space. If you want to remove the CCP API statistics, then remove it from the whole world, to no one was hurt.

Then pilot of Blood Union and EXPLOSION can safely remove EVE Online client and forget about this game.