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[Future Release] Removing Wh systems from the map/kills EVE API

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unimatrix0030
Mass Collapse
It Must Be Jelly Cause Jam Don't Shake
#621 - 2014-05-13 16:57:03 UTC
Meytal wrote:
Solitary Pal wrote:
(Break-a-wish guy)


Wormhole space is about stealth, stalking, hunting, and being hunted. It's about taking what you can while either trying to stay away from the wolves, or it's about taking what you can while being a wolf in sheep's clothing. It's about waking up each day with a completely new destination, a completely new starmap to look at and explore, and different (sometimes new) people to interact with.

You can't just brazenly waltz into a system with a brick tank, engage and light a cyno, and have 1000 of your closest friends jump in from across the EVE universe to help you kill that Drake in an anomaly. What you have is what you brought with you. You can't just dock up when you are out numbered: if you are caught outside of safety, you will die. If you poke your nose out of your POS forcefield, the skilled player can bump you just right to knock you completely out and you will die. There are no docking games, station games here. (Yet). Absolutely anything in your wormhole can be destroyed; no invulnerable stations to hide your stuff in. (Again, yet).

You have no free intel data in the form of Local. Dscan is the life blood of W-space. Those who are good at using dscan do well, if you don't use it, or are poor at using it, you will die.

The largest aspect of W-space is that if you can put forth diligent effort, you can be safe. If you can put forth diligent effort, you can catch targets. Through working and preparing, you can be the victor, whether you are hunting or you are the hunted. This is what we prized the most in W-space.

At real issue is the increasing safety that CCP is affording those who wish to avoid non-consensual PvP. Through multiple changes, CCP has completely flipped the balance on hunter vs hunted in a way that seems opposite to their actions in other regions of space. The conspiracy theory is that CCP players, or their Nullbear pets, encountered an environment that was too dangerous to bear in the near-absolute safety found in the blue Null doughnut. The real reason is probably that CCP has no clue about W-space. The largest of these imbalances centers around instant sig intel data.

Previously, you wouldn't know what non-celestials were in your system until you dropped probes and actively sought out this information. The act of dropping probes would make you visible, and often vulnerable if you weren't smart about making an intermediate safe spot. Anyone scouting the system would see your probes and know there was activity.

If a new wormhole opened up into your system, you wouldn't know this until you scanned and saw the list of signatures change. This means that hunters had a window of opportunity to pounce on their prey. The size of the window depended strictly on the diligence of the prey: if you had an active scanner continually refreshing the scanner, you would know within a few seconds and could warn your fleet. It was easy enough to be safe, but it required diligence and preparation.

If CCP had changed nothing else, but removed the kill API data, it would have been acceptable. To the majority of the hunters, this information was mildly useful at best. Unless your targets were careful, you would catch them with or without this information. And if they were careful, they deserved to get away.

But CCP gave the hunted a free tool: you know instantly when someone new opens a connection in your system. As soon as the person in the connecting system initiates warp, the sig spawns in the other system and appears in the scanner window, before the hunter even exits warp in the connecting system. Bears in PvE sites can immediately see the sig and warp out. They even have time to shoot anything that scrams. Even if you, the hunter, are diligent and as efficient as you can possibly be, and have all the luck in the game on your side, your target has to be braindead to fall prey to you.

Sigs should not show up in W-space unless scanned with probes.

The only remaining risk of non-consensual PvP was the logoff trap, which often used the kill API data. Because of other changes, the presence of this free intel balanced and offset the availability of the free sig intel.

The removal of the kill API data means the dynamic in wormholes for PvE fleets will drastically change. You already did not need a dedicated scout, especially if you close all existing holes and do not warp to the new static (meaning the other side doesn't spawn). Now you no longer will need to constantly twitch-mash dscan to watch for hostiles, since groups will be less likely to seed into a non-home system without knowing it is active.

You can't just roll into any system you want whenever you want. If you put a scout in a system, it may be difficult to get back into that system, especially if you want to seed capitals.

It's like Joe Mission Runner who is in the third room of his mission being told that John the Ganker has just initiated warp to his mission's gate. There isn't a blessed thing John the Ganker can do to avoid alerting Joe Mission Runner that he is on the way.

Remember, there is no Local in W-space unless you speak up. No one is supposed to know you're there.

In reality, this data indeed shouldn't be available as it was. But it enabled the last major unknown threat to PvE activity in W-space, so in that alone it was balanced.

(Sorry for the length)

An excelent write up of this issue at hand. Better written then most of us in here!
Well done!
I will be quoting this post a lot!

No local in null sec would fix everything!

unimatrix0030
Mass Collapse
It Must Be Jelly Cause Jam Don't Shake
#622 - 2014-05-13 17:11:10 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Meytal wrote:
...


Big post, but very nicely written and well worth reading.

There is only one discrepancy in it. the probe scan window does not refresh immediately. There seems to be a polling interval so there is a window in which you can get into a victim's system immediately after rolling a hole.

I do agree though - making sigs magically appear was a bad idea, as was making grav sites into anomalies. This is massively unfair on miners, of which I am not one.

The sig is instantly there, faster then any frig can warp to the hole.
Read this post : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4561827#post4561827
It gives a good rundown of how things happen when you have rolled a hole.

Now we can only hope that the instant sig spawn is fixed before we can find pvp again in c5-c6 space.
And with our luck it won't be this year... (prove me wrong on this CCP!).

No local in null sec would fix everything!

Meytal
Doomheim
#623 - 2014-05-13 17:42:28 UTC
Enaris Kerle wrote:
Meytal wrote:
Even if this was my spaceships character, I've seen more noob corp pilots in W-space than I've seen Goons in W-space, and they give just about as much of a fight. So, yeah. SAK in particular is not a stranger to W-space.

That's odd, there's been a large thread over on the WH forum about how Goonswarm had put up a fight. Maybe you should look more closely? (I'll also accept you posting on your main instead.)

You are presuming that Goons put up more of a fight than others or fight more than others. Because it's Goons it makes news. Heck, it's news when ANY null entity fights in W-space. When things become commonplace, it's no longer "news".

*pat pat* There there, you are still a special snowflake.
Now be a good lad and go play with your doughnut friends.
Enaris Kerle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#624 - 2014-05-13 18:17:41 UTC
Meytal wrote:
You are presuming that Goons put up more of a fight than others or fight more than others. Because it's Goons it makes news. Heck, it's news when ANY null entity fights in W-space. When things become commonplace, it's no longer "news".

If SAK fighting in W-space is no longer news, I'm sure you can point me to a zkillboard link where a SAK fleet fights another WH group. (Or you could post on your main.)

Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.

ViRtUoZone
Spitfire Syndicate
#625 - 2014-05-15 06:08:07 UTC
The change makes sense and should be implemented.. That being said.. I don't want it to be.. It means fewer 2bil Tengu ganks.. :(
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
#626 - 2014-05-15 07:39:25 UTC
unimatrix0030 wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Meytal wrote:
...


Big post, but very nicely written and well worth reading.

There is only one discrepancy in it. the probe scan window does not refresh immediately. There seems to be a polling interval so there is a window in which you can get into a victim's system immediately after rolling a hole.

I do agree though - making sigs magically appear was a bad idea, as was making grav sites into anomalies. This is massively unfair on miners, of which I am not one.

The sig is instantly there, faster then any frig can warp to the hole.
Read this post : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4561827#post4561827
It gives a good rundown of how things happen when you have rolled a hole.

Now we can only hope that the instant sig spawn is fixed before we can find pvp again in c5-c6 space.
And with our luck it won't be this year... (prove me wrong on this CCP!).


All I can see are tears because it's going to take a little more effort to gank helpless sleeper farmers.

If they're harder to find, there'll be more of them. Which means that people who put the effort in will find more of them.

As someone who does both sleeper farming and sleeper farmer ganks, I'm struggling to see a problem.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Seraph Essael
Air
The Initiative.
#627 - 2014-05-19 07:21:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Seraph Essael
Edit: I'm slightly confused over the whole situation, but will wait for further details.

I am all for making more mystery in wormholes and making people work for their intel. But I am unsure if this is 100% the correct way to go. Time will tell I suppose.

Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."

CivilWars
Half Empty
#628 - 2014-05-19 22:15:46 UTC
I await this type of response in this topic. Don't let me down...

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Good evening everyone. Just wanted to let you guys know that we haven't forgotten about you. I'm discussing a few improvements to the design with the CSM now, and we'll be able to start getting your feedback on them soon.

Have a good night!

Hidden Fremen liked your forum post:

Jack Miton liked your forum post:

Qusal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#629 - 2014-05-22 19:18:15 UTC
Well i like the change since i am a big carebear with 5+ capital accounts so i can just safely go to a wormhole and farm it a while, then buy plexes for a year, and spend the rest of my time in other games while we wait for pvp to start in eve. ( like the one with real dodgefighting which also will have a lot more of unkown space to explore it seems Smile.)

Anyway back on topic: I have been always been held back to solo farm a c5/c6 but change makes me feel atleast so much safer since people won't seed the systems based on information anymore Big smile

What would be even better if you guys remove D-Scan from wormhole space, so that you only can find things with probes then it would be perfect unkown! Smile

So thank you CCP for making eve a lot easier! Big smile

Also guys who mine or harvest gas that will be really safe to do now since the sleeper kills of clearing sites will not show up anymore. So i would advice multiboxers to clear out wormholes ore and gas sites!
Luscius Uta
#630 - 2014-06-30 05:40:02 UTC
I don't mind the removal of NPC kills. But removal of player kills is simply ********, since killboards still pull them, so it makes as much sense as placing a locked door in the middle of the street, thinking that it will be too much effort for people to walk around them.

Also this isn't going to attract more people to W-space, so not exactly the direction most of us want EVE to go.

I'm not an actual wormhole resident, but I ninja run sites from time to time. I also voted for wormhole CSM candidates (except Karen), thinking that they have better ideas about wormhole life than CCP.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.

Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
Chao3 Alliance
#631 - 2014-06-30 07:44:40 UTC
Luscius Uta wrote:
I don't mind the removal of NPC kills. But removal of player kills is simply ********, since killboards still pull them,

Agreed with the poster that this is a discrepancy that should be fixed.

Fix it by removing any info about kill location in W-Space, just give a generic W-Space tags to those kills
*this message has been approved by FTKB alliance*

... and kuddos on removing all the API calls for WH activity!

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project

Van Steiza
The Primordials
#632 - 2014-06-30 09:25:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Van Steiza
As someone who every now and then runs solo sites inbetween pvp to fund my ridiculous isk sinks., 8b/10b blap Dreads/1b+T3s.

I can honestly say this change has made it pretty much risk free for me to pve. I mean what do I have to do now? scan sigs then close any incoming wormholes and crush the static.

After that all I have to do is look at my sig list for any new sigs....The moment a new sig pops up all I have to do is desiege/ fit stabs and warp out. If I get tackled by a hero sabre who has a 30 man rage rolling fleet on the other side then mega props to them. However this happens to me a few days ago and I just moonwalked out of there as I saw the sig immediately and warped in a ship to kill any dics that landed after the sig popped up.

Log off traps? they will get people as they always do but now you need to find someone running sites by scouting wormhole space then spend a few days trying to figure out when they run sites before planning to seed them. I am not saying that it should be easy but finding targets now involves days of work to just put in the scout work unless you already know farmer system and the times they run sites.

Seeding home systems of big alliances or corps is the same as before but the issue is with the nomadic farmers who can now farm freely in there random c5s/c6's.

As I said in the beginning of my post in the last month when ever I run sites solo I have been K162'd into ONCE. I can pretty much run sites without giving half a ****. This is so unbalanced it is unfair to the people looking for fights as I know from rage rolling for targets myself that there are people who are rage rolling all day from multiple alliances trying to look for a gank and they still wont roll into me/someone else and even if they do I can see the sig and just moon walk away.

The favour is too far on the side of farmers than it is for the hunters, If all I did was farm I could do it all day everyday knowing that if I closed all incomings and just looked at my sigs then I dont have to worry unless someone rolled into me and knowing that they cant see my api info on sleepers killed well lol isk print away..

There is no balance with this change none what so ever.
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
Chao3 Alliance
#633 - 2014-06-30 09:45:02 UTC
Van Steiza wrote:


There is no balance with this change none what so ever.


I disagree.. It is a good change because it forces more scouting... More scouts means more potential targets... Entering a new WH is always a risk, as you never know who is watching and the polarization limits your options..

As for the K162 issue, CCP is clearly looking at delaying its appearance, and I hope this will be done with some kind of delayed local in null sec too...

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project

Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#634 - 2014-06-30 13:24:21 UTC
Speaking as someone who has done his fair share of the farming thing, let me tell you what this change will actually do to your ability to gank me.

Nothing.

Typically when I run home sites, I will close all the holes in the system. So your API-pulling tools that tell you I'm running sites, all they tell you is that 10 minutes ago, I closed your connection. You knew that I was running sites, and you couldn't get at me. The only way you were going to gank me is if you rolled into me while I was mid seige cycle and I couldn't get out in time. The easiest way to know if somone is running sites is to use D-scan and check for wrecks.

After the change, I still close all the connections. The best way to tell if I'm running sites is still to D-scan for wrecks.

What has changed? You don't know that I'm running sites behind a connection that isn't there anymore. You also can't now sit logged off in my system and use out-of-game tools to tell you when I've started running sites. You have to log a scout in now and wait. The humanity! The other thing you can't do anymore is seed my wormhole while everyone is logged off, knowing that in 4 hours I normally run sites. Now you have to be present when it happens to know that it happens at all.

Having said all that, I 100% support removing the auto-updating sig list from wormholes. If you want information about wormholes, then you should be required to scan for it. With probes. I'd even like anomolies to require probes in wormholes. Want to go there? Probes. Want to know that 'there' exists? Probes.

Don't have probes? Self destruct and tell me how much you lost. CCP has removed one form of free intel, now lets make sure they remove the other forms. No more instant updating sig lists.

Bohneik Itohn
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#635 - 2014-06-30 14:05:42 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Speaking as someone who has done his fair share of the farming thing, let me tell you what this change will actually do to your ability to gank me.

Nothing.

Typically when I run home sites, I will close all the holes in the system. So your API-pulling tools that tell you I'm running sites, all they tell you is that 10 minutes ago, I closed your connection. You knew that I was running sites, and you couldn't get at me. The only way you were going to gank me is if you rolled into me while I was mid seige cycle and I couldn't get out in time. The easiest way to know if somone is running sites is to use D-scan and check for wrecks.

After the change, I still close all the connections. The best way to tell if I'm running sites is still to D-scan for wrecks.

What has changed? You don't know that I'm running sites behind a connection that isn't there anymore. You also can't now sit logged off in my system and use out-of-game tools to tell you when I've started running sites. You have to log a scout in now and wait. The humanity! The other thing you can't do anymore is seed my wormhole while everyone is logged off, knowing that in 4 hours I normally run sites. Now you have to be present when it happens to know that it happens at all.

Having said all that, I 100% support removing the auto-updating sig list from wormholes. If you want information about wormholes, then you should be required to scan for it. With probes. I'd even like anomolies to require probes in wormholes. Want to go there? Probes. Want to know that 'there' exists? Probes.

Don't have probes? Self destruct and tell me how much you lost. CCP has removed one form of free intel, now lets make sure they remove the other forms. No more instant updating sig lists.




Haven't been in wormholes long have you?....

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.

Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#636 - 2014-06-30 14:57:22 UTC
Bohneik Itohn wrote:
Haven't been in wormholes long have you?....


Only 2 years or so. You got something to say about my post, or was that smug condescension all you had?
Bohneik Itohn
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#637 - 2014-06-30 19:41:32 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Bohneik Itohn wrote:
Haven't been in wormholes long have you?....


Only 2 years or so. You got something to say about my post, or was that smug condescension all you had?


The entire conversation in this thread that is dozens of pages long has been about the one PvP tactic in wormholes that completely circumvents everything you held up as your magical aegis against ganking, yet you somehow managed to ignore all of it and still vomit your braggadocio in the middle of it for no particular reason....

I mean... What can I say about that?...

Bravo?....

Doesn't matter, this topic is dead.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.

Apelacja
Sad Najwyzszy
#638 - 2014-07-01 15:40:44 UTC
When WH is farmed it is enough to warp to anoms and check what npc`es are at the anomaly area.

But of course it needs some effort to check them warp few times and so on......

In general i have only one thing to say: If u want those 5-10 b kills move your fat asses and warp few times instead of having everything on a plate.
Alador Afuran
#639 - 2014-07-02 02:32:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Alador Afuran
del
Alador Afuran
#640 - 2014-07-02 02:35:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Alador Afuran
Cosmic Scanner wrote:
however as stated it would also make w-space a farmers paradise, which is no good.

First step is stop buying Sleeper Components. I mean Ancient Coordinates Database, Neural Network Analyzer, etc.

Cosmic Scanner wrote:
W-Space is after all a form of 0.0 space, so it should be the highest risk and highest reward.

Could be, but not should be. W-Space have to be more interesting for scientist and inventors first of all. It means more components in T3 BPC. Why not? What about variable gas reaction? Put C-50, C-70, C-54 together and let's see what gonna happen. Unique fullerene? Maybe slio will get explosion. Maybe tower will get random damage, etc. W-Space have to be like a hell for the hero of science and don't give any chance for the hero of ISK farming :)