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[Future Release] Removing Wh systems from the map/kills EVE API

First post First post
Author
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#101 - 2014-05-06 18:21:48 UTC
Bloemkoolsaus wrote:
If the change is purely because this information is not accessible ingame, then make it accessible ingame. For example, I could image that you hit F10 in a wormhole and that you get these stats, but only if you're in the actual system itself.


so if they do this instead of removing the API endpoint why would anyone bother getting to a system to get that information instead of getting it from the API with zero effort

fantastic logic there

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Thor66777
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2014-05-06 18:22:13 UTC
John Caldr wrote:
All WH PVPers agreed that this feature helps create PVP content. Sometimes forcefully, yes Lol
All who live in WH agreed that removing this feature will make WHs isk-farming paradise that will harm all.
(if you go for numbers - you can farm 80billions in few days with just few hours per day and only 2 people. now we can stop it, after change - we would not be able to)

And the reason to make the change - there is no "ingame" data for NPC kills.

Dont change things that are not broken. Lets just make this data available in client.

There were suggestions for deployable structures, but there is more simple solution.

Make this info available in WHs after clicking at the system sun.


Didn't realize Quantum Explosion represented all of wormhole space pvp'ers.

Quote:
- you can farm 80billions in few days with just few hours per day and only 2 people. now we can stop it, after change - we would not be able to)


You can still do that, but you actually have to work and scout for that NPC information rather than just getting it from a out of game source instantly. This is wormhole space the unknown is what we are about. So adapt or die.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#103 - 2014-05-06 18:22:39 UTC
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:
Better make this so in K-Space as well... that information is not publicly available in client either you know...

If you go through with it of course...

Unfortunately for you, it DOES exist. Go in-game, open up your star map. Open the map settings, go to Statistics > pirate and police ships killed. Bam, there's your data.

Since there is no star map for wormhole space, this information is not available.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#104 - 2014-05-06 18:22:43 UTC
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:
Better make this so in K-Space as well... that information is not publicly available in client either you know...

If you go through with it of course...


yes it is

statistics > pirate and police ships killed in the last hour

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Chjna
the Goose Flock
#105 - 2014-05-06 18:22:59 UTC
Make one ore two empty signatures spawn/despawn in WH-space, so that you always have sigs popping in and out that you have to scan out. That will take away some of the safty, WH-space have to be more random, if not in this way, at least in some.

Remove T2 BPOs

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#106 - 2014-05-06 18:23:15 UTC
As casual Wormhole resident i think thats a realy good idea, WH should be dangerous as possible!
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#107 - 2014-05-06 18:23:40 UTC
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:
Better make this so in K-Space as well... that information is not publicly available in client either you know...

If you go through with it of course...


Press F10, select NPC kills from filters, view in client

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.

Nooonnnnnoooo notme
Doomheim
#108 - 2014-05-06 18:24:18 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
One of the biggest things we expect this to impact is log off traps. Most people I have talked to before posting this idea agreed that this data was most valuable for finding people to log off trap. People also agreed it was marginally helpful in finding live fights, but not very helpful in that way and most agreed they could easily find a way to adapt.

whoever gave you this opinion is very accurate. trust them in the future.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#109 - 2014-05-06 18:25:06 UTC
Andski wrote:
This is a good change. Intelligence gathering should be made an involved, active process wherever possible.

Like local amirite?

I'm right behind you

Blodhgarm Dethahal
Moist Towelettes.
#110 - 2014-05-06 18:25:21 UTC
heh.. yeah I did not think of that actually.. been in WHs too long :P

Seems reasonable change then to be honest, more activity should be involved in gathering information.

While we at it can we remove discovery scanner then so you actually have to launch probes and hit scan to detect a new signature.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#111 - 2014-05-06 18:26:01 UTC
Alundil wrote:
Andski wrote:
This is a good change. Intelligence gathering should be made an involved, active process wherever possible.

Like local amirite?


not remotely germane to this discussion

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Alundil
Rolled Out
#112 - 2014-05-06 18:29:13 UTC
Ahost Gceo wrote:
Do it, for the love of all that is Bob.

Removing this information will actually cause people who want to find pew to get off their asses and do some regular scouting, which will actually create more confrontation simply because there are people flying about looking for each other.

It's not going to revolutionize wh combat dynamics but it is an improvement.

Literally having no idea how that data is used.

The kill data is meaningless if you are not already out and flying around and looking for things to find and kill. Knowing that kills happened in a system is useless unless you've already mapped a route to it.

So no, this doesn't change the need to scout with regard to jumping into literally dozens of systems looking for things.

I'm right behind you

Agonising Ecstacy
Chaos Army
#113 - 2014-05-06 18:30:41 UTC
Necharo Rackham wrote:
Agonising Ecstacy wrote:

Thats because it benefits the incumbents - those that live in wormholes have an advantage over those that don't


I don't think incumbents mean what you think it does. It benefits the w-space dweller over the casual day tripper - for sure - but this is true of every other part of space also. If you are a new *resident* of w-space, then both siggy and marbin's eve w-space are free to use (and you can even host the latter yourself).


Yeah - I intentionally said incumbents - because I mean more than just 'residents'. It benefits the people that 'own' the system - the people that are the landlords. The people that want to do the ganking. Perhaps incumbents isn't quite the right word, but it was an intentional statement. New *residents* wouldn't immediately spend time developing tools that use the API to make use of this data in the same way that the other, very well established wormhole dwellers might. Day trippers may not even be aware that the information is available through the API.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#114 - 2014-05-06 18:31:08 UTC
Alundil wrote:
Ahost Gceo wrote:
Do it, for the love of all that is Bob.

Removing this information will actually cause people who want to find pew to get off their asses and do some regular scouting, which will actually create more confrontation simply because there are people flying about looking for each other.

It's not going to revolutionize wh combat dynamics but it is an improvement.

Literally having no idea how that data is used.

The kill data is meaningless if you are not already out and flying around and looking for things to find and kill. Knowing that kills happened in a system is useless unless you've already mapped a route to it.

So no, this doesn't change the need to scout with regard to jumping into literally dozens of systems looking for things.

Sure, but it does remove the need to actually be in the system to observe behavior and make a manual determination of whether the hole should be kept or just rolled. All that needs to be done, today, is to check the system against NPCs killed over time, determine when the time zone of activity is, and log off until then.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Alundil
Rolled Out
#115 - 2014-05-06 18:32:57 UTC
Andski wrote:
Alundil wrote:
Andski wrote:
This is a good change. Intelligence gathering should be made an involved, active process wherever possible.

Like local amirite?


not remotely germane to this discussion

Of course you would say so given that this is the most free form of effortless Intel available anywhere in game. One that your alliance and coalition abuses to no end to avoid the associated risks attached to the alleged rewards of 00 anomalies.

So in reply to a comment about making Intel gathering'active and involved' it is perfectly germane.

I'm right behind you

Napoleon Aldent
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2014-05-06 18:33:30 UTC
Andski wrote:
Alundil wrote:
Andski wrote:
This is a good change. Intelligence gathering should be made an involved, active process wherever possible.

Like local amirite?


not remotely germane to this discussion


Confirming that intel gathering by putting a bot with local open in a Twitch feed is more involved than looking at Dotlan.

Our angle is that we care about objective game balance, regardless of who it benefits or hurts.  -Goonswarm 2014

Cosmic Scanner
Ehefkae
#117 - 2014-05-06 18:34:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Cosmic Scanner
In principle i would like the removal of npc kill stats. I think people should need to work for kills, however as stated it would also make w-space a farmers paradise, which is no good. Where is the risk vs reward? That said i also don't like the way entities such as blood union "farms farmers" with such ease. We could do it too, but most are not fond of log off traps.

If removing npc kills, we need something to increase the risk to farmers. I believe that either delayed signature appearance, or making sig appearance back to the way it was before, where sigs didn't automatically appear in your scan window would help. However that is not a solution to removing npc kill stats, if removing that, we need something else to keep the risk to farmers.

W-Space is after all a form of 0.0 space, so it should be the highest risk and highest reward.

Cosmic Scanner / muu lufragga

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#118 - 2014-05-06 18:34:17 UTC
Alundil wrote:
Andski wrote:
Alundil wrote:
Andski wrote:
This is a good change. Intelligence gathering should be made an involved, active process wherever possible.

Like local amirite?


not remotely germane to this discussion

Of course you would say so given that this is the most free form of effortless Intel available anywhere in game. One that your alliance and coalition abuses to no end to avoid the associated risks attached to the alleged rewards of 00 anomalies.

So in reply to a comment about making Intel gathering'active and involved' it is perfectly germane.

You're comparing apples and oranges, is what he's saying. Nullsec game mechanics aren't really relevant to a discussion about wormhole mechanics.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#119 - 2014-05-06 18:36:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Alundil wrote:
Of course you would say so given that this is the most free form of effortless Intel available anywhere in game. One that your alliance and coalition abuses to no end to avoid the associated risks attached to the alleged rewards of 00 anomalies.

So in reply to a comment about making Intel gathering'active and involved' it is perfectly germane.


Of course you'll try to derail this thread by talking about something that does not exist in w-space in a thread about a change to w-space mechanics. If you want to talk about local, go start another thread about local, or post in one of the millions of existing threads about local. Local in nullsec has absolute fuckall to do with this discussion.

The irony of wormholers complaining about local being effortless intel when they're demanding that CCP leave another form of effortless intel intact because it actually benefits them is golden

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#120 - 2014-05-06 18:41:40 UTC
Napoleon Aldent wrote:
Confirming that intel gathering by putting a bot with local open in a Twitch feed is more involved than looking at Dotlan.


Even if this did happen on a regular basis (it doesn't) it requires somebody to actually set up in the system being monitored.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar