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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

First post First post First post
Author
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1201 - 2014-04-17 19:35:22 UTC
Oxide Ammar wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Oxide Ammar wrote:
CCP are feeding you (nullsec community) with golden spoon ...what the hell you are adapting for ? the new wealth income they are introducing to you ?
What is being handed to them that isn't being handed out everywhere else?


If it isn't that obvious for you till now, with countless rebuffs to every aspect in game I don't see reason to write wall of text describing what are they.

So, you don't actually know.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1202 - 2014-04-17 19:38:29 UTC
Oxide Ammar wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Oxide Ammar wrote:
CCP are feeding you (nullsec community) with golden spoon ...what the hell you are adapting for ? the new wealth income they are introducing to you ?
What is being handed to them that isn't being handed out everywhere else?

If it isn't that obvious for you till now, with countless rebuffs to every aspect in game I don't see reason to write wall of text describing what are they.

Ok, so this is where we run into the issue of thinking that counting tick marks on who gets what buff/nerf is in any way an indicator of an imbalance or unfair advantage. It's an argument of someone either too lazy to make their point known or who doesn't actually have one. Until you are willing to put the weight of evidence behind your words don't expect them to convince anyone or have any influence.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1203 - 2014-04-17 19:41:50 UTC
Firvain wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Oxide Ammar wrote:
CCP are feeding you (nullsec community) with golden spoon ...what the hell you are adapting for ? the new wealth income they are introducing to you ?
What is being handed to them that isn't being handed out everywhere else?


This i would like to know too. Even though i am in goonswarm, i still do production in highsec aswel, and i am really not too fussed about these changes so far.

hell both you and i lose out way more on this pos safety thing than any of this rabble

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#1204 - 2014-04-17 19:47:25 UTC
Weaselior wrote:

hell both you and i lose out way more on this pos safety thing than any of this rabble


For a guy who spends most of his spare time suicide ganking miners in high sec, I'm surprised.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1205 - 2014-04-17 19:49:42 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Weaselior wrote:

hell both you and i lose out way more on this pos safety thing than any of this rabble


For a guy who spends most of his spare time suicide ganking miners in high sec, I'm surprised.

It may surprise you that even nullsec dwellers such as me and my colleagues are invested in industry. Probably more than most people in this thread, come to think of it.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Volar Kang
Kang Industrial
#1206 - 2014-04-17 20:06:07 UTC
I still don’t understand why private POS owners will now have to pay tax when they already pay a huge extra cost in fuel to keep the POS running. Will the new station costs adequately reflect this high cost or should we all start looking for remote systems far away from the hubs to move our industry to? If I can move 10 jumps from Jita and only have to pay 100 million to run all my invention/copy/manufacturing/research jobs AND not have to bother purchasing/manufacturing fuel AND keep my BPO’s safe inside a station AND not have to log in everyday to look for wardecs AND not have to bother with all the other time consuming aspects of running a POS like hauling fuel, then why would anyone even want a POS in highsec anymore? If you make the cost of using stations as high as using a POS then you block new industrialists from the field.

The only reason people invent or research in a POS is due to the lack of slots in stations. People currently pay as much as $180 million a month in fuel costs for a medium POS plus half a billion for the POS and labs plus have to deal with moving everything in case of wardec and having to haul fuel every month. To top that off, they still have limited slots to use. Now you want to increase that cost by adding tax while also eliminating the lack of slots in stations. I can not possibly imagine how you could drive up the cost of station industry enough to compensate for the cost of a POS and the hassle that goes with it.

With one account and three industry toons, if I run 200 jobs a month and each job cost me 500,000 isk, it would still only cost me 100 mill AND I would no longer have to deal with all the negatives of having a POS plus my BPO’s would be safe in a station. If I am 10 jumps from Jita and you raise the prices this high, how can new players get into industry? Will you make the station cost even higher to give me a reason to use a POS?

You can say that a POS will have unlimited slots after the changes but will that really make a difference? How many slots can I actually use when copy jobs take 28 days and ME jobs for large ships take 30 days for one or two ME points? Will a person have to have 8 accounts full of industry toons just to make using a POS worthwhile?
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#1207 - 2014-04-17 20:09:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Victoria Sin
Querns wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Weaselior wrote:

hell both you and i lose out way more on this pos safety thing than any of this rabble


For a guy who spends most of his spare time suicide ganking miners in high sec, I'm surprised.

It may surprise you that even nullsec dwellers such as me and my colleagues are invested in industry. Probably more than most people in this thread, come to think of it.


It doesn't surprise me as you own large tracts of null you'd be very interested in making it more profitable from a production point of view and HS less so. You don't care all that much. You can take it or leave it. But until I've seen all of the dev blogs and got a broader view of exactly how everything is going to fit together, it's impossible to say whether any of us have a dog in this race or not.

Just remember that taxes change behaviour: You either go and try to find somewhere you'll get taxed less or you just stop doing the thing that's being taxed - you divest, so to speak. I might personally choose the latter. There's an optimal point beyond which an aspect of the game goes from being an interesting little hobby to a pain in the buttox. I don't know if CCP intend to cross that line with this expansion.

It would have been better to release all of the dev blogs at once, so we can get a broader view.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1208 - 2014-04-17 20:15:42 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Querns wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Weaselior wrote:

hell both you and i lose out way more on this pos safety thing than any of this rabble


For a guy who spends most of his spare time suicide ganking miners in high sec, I'm surprised.

It may surprise you that even nullsec dwellers such as me and my colleagues are invested in industry. Probably more than most people in this thread, come to think of it.


It doesn't surprise me but as you own large tracts of null you'd be very interested in making it more profitable from a production point of view and HS less so. You don't care all that much. You can take it or leave it. But until I've seen all of the dev blogs and got a broader view of exactly how everything is going to fit together, it's impossible to say whether any of us have a dog in this race or not.

Just remember that taxes change behaviour: You either go and try to find somewhere you'll get taxed less or you just stop doing the thing that's being taxed - you divest, so to speak. I might personally choose the latter. There's an optimal point beyond which an aspect of the game goes from being an interesting little hobby to a pain in the buttox. I don't know if CCP intend to cross that line with this expansion.

It's less about sheer profitability as much as it is viability. For example: every member of the Economic Cabal currently does manufacturing in highsec, except for the items that are physically barred from being produced there. We would enjoy being able to use our space for this, if it was viable. Right now, it's not. It remains to be seen if the removal of slots and congestion fees will significantly affect the viability of nullsec production. I suspect it will, but there's a number of ways it could go south. We all wait with bated breath for the remainder of the devblogs.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#1209 - 2014-04-17 20:17:39 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Querns wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Weaselior wrote:

hell both you and i lose out way more on this pos safety thing than any of this rabble


For a guy who spends most of his spare time suicide ganking miners in high sec, I'm surprised.

It may surprise you that even nullsec dwellers such as me and my colleagues are invested in industry. Probably more than most people in this thread, come to think of it.


It doesn't surprise me but as you own large tracts of null you'd be very interested in making it more profitable from a production point of view and HS less so. You don't care all that much. You can take it or leave it. But until I've seen all of the dev blogs and got a broader view of exactly how everything is going to fit together, it's impossible to say whether any of us have a dog in this race or not.

Just remember that taxes change behaviour: You either go and try to find somewhere you'll get taxed less or you just stop doing the thing that's being taxed - you divest, so to speak. I might personally choose the latter. There's an optimal point beyond which an aspect of the game goes from being an interesting little hobby to a pain in the buttox. I don't know if CCP intend to cross that line with this expansion.


we got a winner here. Exactly there isnt details on these changes yet for a complete picture.

ALl those people that are complaining about now needing to pay to use your assembly arrays in a pos, do you really? where is it said yet? All that is said is that they wont have any slots just like stations and are effected by scaling. But not how they are effected, when do you start paying for them etc
Aeonidis
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1210 - 2014-04-17 20:19:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Aeonidis
edit- everything i wrote got ate boo
Radgette
EVE Irn Bru Distribution
#1211 - 2014-04-17 20:23:33 UTC
Firvain wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Querns wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Weaselior wrote:

hell both you and i lose out way more on this pos safety thing than any of this rabble


For a guy who spends most of his spare time suicide ganking miners in high sec, I'm surprised.

It may surprise you that even nullsec dwellers such as me and my colleagues are invested in industry. Probably more than most people in this thread, come to think of it.


It doesn't surprise me but as you own large tracts of null you'd be very interested in making it more profitable from a production point of view and HS less so. You don't care all that much. You can take it or leave it. But until I've seen all of the dev blogs and got a broader view of exactly how everything is going to fit together, it's impossible to say whether any of us have a dog in this race or not.

Just remember that taxes change behaviour: You either go and try to find somewhere you'll get taxed less or you just stop doing the thing that's being taxed - you divest, so to speak. I might personally choose the latter. There's an optimal point beyond which an aspect of the game goes from being an interesting little hobby to a pain in the buttox. I don't know if CCP intend to cross that line with this expansion.


we got a winner here. Exactly there isnt details on these changes yet for a complete picture.

ALl those people that are complaining about now needing to pay to use your assembly arrays in a pos, do you really? where is it said yet? All that is said is that they wont have any slots just like stations and are effected by scaling. But not how they are effected, when do you start paying for them etc



Ytterbium already stated that it won't be free like it is at the moment ( barring pos fuel, setup costs, etc ).

So we know there is going to be a new "tax" added to ALL pos use, were just waiting on how much.

Yes we don't know exactly how much this will be but already t2 manufacturing will get more expensive if you build from invented bpc's which ofc will be passed to the purchaser "hopefully"

They should have released the pricing with this dev blog. People are rightfully worried about how this will affect the way they enjoy the game.

Also many people chose back end systems without any manu slots on the stations in them so they could get cheaper office prices and do everything they needed from their POS. These people are almost certainly going to have to move closer to stations with copy slots or risk their expensive BPO's.

Which means everyone with half a brain will move system.
Zappity
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1212 - 2014-04-17 20:45:11 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
probag Bear wrote:
Quote:
Remove the ability for players to use stations to safely store their blueprints without putting them at risk in Starbase structures. Players will still be able to start their jobs remotely (via the use of Supply Chain Management and Scientific Networking skills), but will now have to move their blueprints directly into the starbase structures that require it, like other materials.


My chief complaint:

I have about 25,000 blueprints and blueprint copies and more than a half-dozen POSes. The only reason I can deal with such a quagmire is because of stations and containers.

Currently, in order to produce a specific item, all I have to do is go to a certain station, open a certain container, and move some of its contents to the station floor.

Under this new system, judging by the way you phrase it ("like other materials"), I would need to do one of two things:

1. Let all my blueprints pile up in various POS arrays, and thus have to scroll through at least hundreds of items every time I start a job.

2. Store all my blueprints in nice organized containers as I do now, and thus every time I start a job be forced to go to every one of my POSes, individually open every single POS array I'm using, scroll to the right container, and remove a simple handful of blueprints each time.

#2 would be a lot more clicks, a lot of downtime as I warp between POSes, and in general a lot of annoyance. Even if the S&I interface is revamped to where I don't need to click the exact same 8 spots on my screen 10 times for every character I own, the amount of time wasted by clunky game mechanics would still increase significantly.

Long story short, when you work on your filtering mechanisms, please keep in mind that many of us manage more than a single POS and definitely more than just a handful of arrays, cycle through several dozen blueprint types rather than only producing Megathrons, and in general go to extremes that you, Developers, may not expect.


You will be able to see all your blueprints in assembly arrays etc and remotely start jobs from containers, so that should cover your use case.

EDIT: There is also a nice search / filter interface, you will get some time on SiSi to give us feedback on how this works before we go live too.

Can someone please explain what this means? Will we still have to put blueprints on the array floors or will we be able to run jobs using a blueprint in a secure container at a POS? Thinking access rights as well as clicks.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Aeonidis
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1213 - 2014-04-17 20:49:09 UTC
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Aeonidis wrote:
Refining is getting a major nerf. Mineral compression is going away completely. instead there will only be 2 viable ways to move huge amounts of trit around in any sensible fashion. Rorqual->JF in Low/Null -or- Compression Array ->Freighter ->Station in High. Post patch no one is going to be shipping trit in an industrial that does any kind of capital production. Its going to have to stay in compressed rock form till it hits it final destination and then refined there with a specialized toon. Since Compression Arrays will be able to be anchored anywhere in High it only stands to reason that CCP needs to have the veld miners be able to use those arrays by also being able to compress their ore for logistics purposes. If all the veld miners had to suddenly start grinding standing to Anchor a stick what do you think would happen to the trit market and then New Eden industry as a whole? If the refining and mineral compression changes were happening at different times they might not have to do away with standings. My guess is that all this is leading to POS code changes down the road but they cant rewrite everything at once so some sacrifices have to be made to have the game at least be functional.


Thank you for an interesting point, however I think it doesn't negate my argument.

If miner corp wants to be efficient they would need to do something about it. They would need to either ask their friends with a POS for refining/compression - or buy a a corp with standings from players - or find a corp with a tower near them and offer them a deal for those services. If an individual miner wants to be efficient he'll have to find a good corp to join or work really hard and try to get it all himself. They would need to setup networks and find contacts in different locations to move the compressed ore about HS. If they refused to work together in such manner they can always just sell their ore on the Market and other entrepreneurs will gladly buy, compress and re-sell it.

All those possibilities for interaction, enterprises and group activities have been slimmed down to those who are ignorant of the mechanics or don't have time to run a POS themselves. And those type of people usually just sell to the market and don't add any meaningful interaction to the game.

As far as nullsec bears are concerned, their HS miners would need to either follow the same logic, or they can buy it on the market or they can always mine it locally or find corporations in HS and make deals with them instead of ganking them. The flavors of interaction were much more varied.

With standing requirement gone, anyone who just created a 1 man corp can setup a POS and run his own show without ever interacting with anyone, and that's what I don't like about it. POS used to be a goal you strive for, now they turned it into an expensive mobile structure. Things in the game have value because they're hard to attain. The concept of owning a POS just got devalued from a corp wide effort to a cost of a battleship for a single pilot.

Lastly about the code.... really? With everything wrong with the POS, I'm sure standings are their least concern. Unless they're planning to re-do it by thinning it down to a stick in space first.


I was not trying to negate your argument, I was adding a possible reason why CCP did what they did. CCP has metrics that point to subs staying longer because of the exact reasons you stated. Grouping up with ppl and moving toward a common goal. But those same metrics point to a base of subs that stay around for long time and never get involved in the social aspect of the game. Want to guess which parts of eve those latter subs fall into? All I'm trying to say is that CCP looks at the game from a "game" aspect as well as a "business" aspect. The only way to grow their business is to acquire more subs and get them to stay around longer. The PLEX market cannot grow beyond a certain point without acquiring long term subs. IMO many of the decisions they make are probably really hard as to how can we relieve some barriers for solo players without alienating mulit-account/alt players to the point of unsubbing vs. how can we get rid of this old code that nobody here understands anymore vs. how can we still make a profit doing this. somewhere in that paradigm something has to give and you can bet your ass its going to be some group of players.
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1214 - 2014-04-17 20:54:40 UTC
Sounds like just a series of nerfs to industry players.

So far we have:


  1. reduction in the ore yield from barges/exhumer
  2. the requirement to train through a dozen or so Level V refining skills and needing to insert an implant to obtain the pre-summer refine levels
  3. increased reliance on POS. But the actual mechanics of POS continue to be poor
  4. removal of standing for POS anchoring?!

But standing will still be required for managing rental of a corporate office at an NPC station
But standing will still be required for to managing taxes associated with the market
But standing will still be required for to lower taxes on NPC refining facilities


I recall the motto from the ship rebalance: if you could fly it before, you will be able to fly it after. Well seems for Industry: if you could perform something before, you wont be doing it after.

Wonder what else will need to be inserted by the end of these series of dev blogs - hint wont be in the head.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#1215 - 2014-04-17 20:58:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Victoria Sin
Radgette wrote:

So we know there is going to be a new "tax" added to ALL pos use, were just waiting on how much.


Depending on the the numbers, it might be better to manufacture and research at an NPC station than suffer the costs of a POS. If it's less than 450m a month (I've already written off the cost of the POS and POS modules), then that'll work out OK I suppose. But with CCP, every silver lining tends to have a cloud. Somewhere...

With this I imagine producing in volume which in any other marketplace would reduce your costs, might actually increase them in Eve. This would be completely counter-intuitive and unrealistic as an economic model.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1216 - 2014-04-17 21:05:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
GetSirrus wrote:
Sounds like just a series of nerfs to industry players.

So far we have:


  1. reduction in the ore yield from barges/exhumer
  2. the requirement to train through a dozen or so Level V refining skills and needing to insert an implant to obtain the pre-summer refine levels
  3. increased reliance on POS. But the actual mechanics of POS continue to be poor
  4. removal of standing for POS anchoring?!

But standing will still be required for managing rental of a corporate office at an NPC station
But standing will still be required for to managing taxes associated with the market
But standing will still be required for to lower taxes on NPC refining facilities


I recall the motto from the ship rebalance: if you could fly it before, you will be able to fly it after. Well seems for Industry: if you could perform something before, you wont be doing it after.

Wonder what else will need to be inserted by the end of these series of dev blogs - hint wont be in the head.

That seems partially inaccurate reading some of the blogs, though I admit to not running the numbers.

  1. reduction in the ore yield from barges/exhumer
  2. The hulk/covetor were actually increased IIRC.
  3. the requirement to train through a dozen or so Level V refining skills and needing to insert an implant to obtain the pre-summer refine levels
  4. Non issue, the market will adjust to the realities of the new refine rates and now those lvl V refine skills and implants will have widespread reason to exist The benefits far outweigh the losses.
  5. increased reliance on POS. But the actual mechanics of POS continue to be poor
  6. This seems half true, POS management mechanics are still poor, but the POS benefits to refining have increased. As far as POS reliance we don't know too much about research aside from the fact that NPC facilities are actually becoming better for the vast majority of players who can use them by way of actually being useable without a 20-30day queue.
  7. removal of standing for POS anchoring?!
  8. Unless you were selling standing, this doesn't change what you were doing


Much as with the ship rebalance, you WILL be doing the same you were before, though probably not as efficiently if you are doing it the exact same way.
Zappity
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1217 - 2014-04-17 21:13:06 UTC
Oxide Ammar wrote:
CCP are feeding you (nullsec community) with golden spoon ...what the hell you are adapting for ? the new wealth income they are introducing to you ?

Oh my. The problem is that:

Many of the people in this thread wrote:
Gah! ****! Change!!! We're all doomed!

Pathetic.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Susan Black
Ice Fire Warriors
#1218 - 2014-04-17 21:50:50 UTC
Does the removal of slots also mean that FW system upgrades invoolving industrial slots will also be removed?

Will there be replacement upgrades of some kind?


Thanks

www.gamerchick.net @gamerchick42

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1219 - 2014-04-17 21:55:54 UTC
Kaius Fero wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
.....

I seriously hope that you will not be another fail CSM member like the ones so far, there is just enough kick in the ass for indy people already. Or if CCP wants us out, just let us know.

Somebody mentioned ESO earlier.. maybe I'm missing something, but manufacturing in ESO? I rather preffer GW2 for that, at least the market, inventions and even the manufacturing is the closest to what we have in EVE. Ofc.. it's still a themepark, but hey...


Just logged off ESO (I am subbed to most a lot of MMOs Twisted). It's crafting system is more intricate than GW2, benefits from teamwork (you get more experience working on items made by others) and it got something like EvE (research, it's like training SP for new skills) instead of discovery. Both are interesting.
I do like GW2 markets more, because they are global and thus liquid and optimized.
But ESO is not "market-less". There are large-ish trading guilds (even 500 members) and you can join multiple guilds.
Each of them comes with their own auction house which is similar to GW2 (looks a bit more "rought" though).
Also, ESO seems a bit more sandbox. There are quests and blah blah but you can go anywhere and / or just craft, can skill up almost free form. Only really despicable feature (for a PvPer) is the lack of free for all PvP in outworld, you have to go into a dedicated region. In this it's like GW2.
Another 2 positive things about ESO: does not look like the average Korean MMO and is "classic flavour", that is it tries to be closer to EQ and DAoC than WoW / GW2, in many subtle and less than subtle ways.
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1220 - 2014-04-17 22:00:30 UTC
Susan Black wrote:
Does the removal of slots also mean that FW system upgrades invoolving industrial slots will also be removed?

Will there be replacement upgrades of some kind?

Thanks


No slots so that FW benefit will disappear. It should be replaced, but reminding CCP makes sense.