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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

First post First post First post
Author
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#1181 - 2014-04-17 17:06:22 UTC
Hildebrandt Koeppl wrote:
How will the changes affect sharing POS capabilities on a alliance level - or even public.
Richt now I can share my research slots with ym alliance. after the change they would have to install the BPO inside the POS, which is - as far as I understand - not possible for players not in my corp and with the right roles to access POS modules. The ability to use a POS - or several - together in a alliance is a strong incentive to bind together - how will this be handled in the future?


We'll have to wait on the POS dev blog to know for sure but I highly doubt they'll do anything to that effect. I think the days of sharing labs with alliances are pretty much over. And here I was hoping they'd allow us to share slots with the public.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!

Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#1182 - 2014-04-17 17:34:51 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Banko Mato wrote:

Except that your additional cost of tY might well turn out to be zero (or near zero) for the same number of jobs your POS can currently handle. With the benefit, that you can install even more jobs, but then your tY will indeed increase. Right now however all this is speculation until CCP releases exact numbers ;)


As a business person, I don't like uncertainty. Whether or not my current or planned run is profitable depends to a large extent upon certain costs I know I'm going to incur. For me the cost is crystallised when I actually buy the moon goo or components or minerals. Everything else is fixed. But now it seems CCP are going to introduce a variable cost factor I have no way of predicting. It's really quite obnoxious.


^This!

When you're running a large scale industrial operation, you need to know your costs ahead of time. Not have them vary day to day, hour by hour. This was the advantage of the POS. Now using a POS puts us in a disadvantage anyway you put it. Even if cost scaling stays stable enough not to affect anything, we either have to put in a lot more effort and risk by placing BPOs at the POS, or we have to put in less risk but still more effort and headache by having to copy items we want to build first. Why do I mention 'risk' for station copying? Because of the possibility that variable copy costs in station will no longer make it profitable to manufacture that item.

Overall, it's making it really easy for an individual to get into Industry, so more solo pilots who never want to put in much effort or interact with anyone will be able to do industry casually, almost anywhere, anytime. This comes at the expense of established industrialists though.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1183 - 2014-04-17 18:03:27 UTC
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Banko Mato wrote:

Except that your additional cost of tY might well turn out to be zero (or near zero) for the same number of jobs your POS can currently handle. With the benefit, that you can install even more jobs, but then your tY will indeed increase. Right now however all this is speculation until CCP releases exact numbers ;)


As a business person, I don't like uncertainty. Whether or not my current or planned run is profitable depends to a large extent upon certain costs I know I'm going to incur. For me the cost is crystallised when I actually buy the moon goo or components or minerals. Everything else is fixed. But now it seems CCP are going to introduce a variable cost factor I have no way of predicting. It's really quite obnoxious.


^This!

When you're running a large scale industrial operation, you need to know your costs ahead of time. Not have them vary day to day, hour by hour. This was the advantage of the POS. Now using a POS puts us in a disadvantage anyway you put it. Even if cost scaling stays stable enough not to affect anything, we either have to put in a lot more effort and risk by placing BPOs at the POS, or we have to put in less risk but still more effort and headache by having to copy items we want to build first. Why do I mention 'risk' for station copying? Because of the possibility that variable copy costs in station will no longer make it profitable to manufacture that item.

Overall, it's making it really easy for an individual to get into Industry, so more solo pilots who never want to put in much effort or interact with anyone will be able to do industry casually, almost anywhere, anytime. This comes at the expense of established industrialists though.



Using a POS does let you know your costs ahead of time. Even with cost scaling. Because you don't have random non-members putting in jobs, and driving the cost up in a non-predictable fashion.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1184 - 2014-04-17 18:04:00 UTC
i look forward to crushing all of the ~industrialists~ who are unable to adapt to even small changes

the weaselior division of Goonswarm Incorporated will soon be dominating all of your old markets

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1185 - 2014-04-17 18:08:19 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Using a POS does let you know your costs ahead of time. Even with cost scaling. Because you don't have random non-members putting in jobs, and driving the cost up in a non-predictable fashion.


We don't know this because, congestion costs may be effected by a system wide job count in some way.
Jed Clampett
Doomheim
#1186 - 2014-04-17 18:09:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jed Clampett
Overall most the changes are "positive" even generous.

BUT POS compression arrays do NOT address the main hauling issues of miners in hi sec. You have already hauled ore from belt - whether to refine at station or POS or to sell or to compress. Hauling from belts or ore/ice anomalies to first unload is the primary miner's transportation issue everywhere a Rorqual is not practical.

So POS Compression is clearly aimed primarily at ore traders and WH where they haul out raw ore. From what I gather compression is for corps without access to someone with decent refining skills (which should be rare in POS owning corp). Otherwise refining would be a better more direct solution given the new high efficiency POS refining structures being introduced and that both compression and refining are instant. Miners themselves only benefit when for some reason its worth hauling a second time from a POS before refining and freighters cannot make enough runs. IF CCP wants to change that equation they might want to reintroduce the concept that POS with limited power must "slow cook" ore to refine it. Then if compression was <5 minutes to activate (crude gravitational implosion/space folding) and refining took 30 minutes (the old 4 hours for very limited amount was ridiculous), there would be real choices to make.


I also note ore refine skills are ALREADY required to get 100% refine at quite few high sec stations and most low sec. 35% base refine is not uncommon and I have seen 25% in high sec. I haven't surveyed low sec as well but 50% base actually seems uncommon.





PS

Is there a plan to raise bunches Empire NPC stations up to the 50% standard? Just on the theory Empire factions had been wealthy and establishing stations much longer than player corp particularly in high sec. Probably should have higher chance of lower yield as security drops off and size of NPC corp owning station drops. ( I assume that faction boost
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1187 - 2014-04-17 18:16:23 UTC
Jed Clampett wrote:
Overall most the changes are "positive" even generous.

BUT POS compression arrays do NOT address the main hauling issues of miners in hi sec. You have already hauled ore from belt - whether to refine at station or POS or to sell or to compress. Hauling from belts or ore/ice anomalies to first unload is the primary miner's transportation issue everywhere a Rorqual is not practical.


The easement of POSes in highsec will help ameliorate this. Instead of hauling from the belt to a station in highsec, you simply haul to your POS and compress in situ. In fact, given that highsec and POS refineries are substandard compared to low/nullsec, it behooves you to do this and sell your compressed ore on the market.

That being said, I fully support dropping the barrier of entry to compression even further and allow it as a station service. Being able to compress ore is too important to the new mineral economy to have it be gated in such a (newly trivialized) manner.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#1188 - 2014-04-17 18:19:43 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Banko Mato wrote:

Except that your additional cost of tY might well turn out to be zero (or near zero) for the same number of jobs your POS can currently handle. With the benefit, that you can install even more jobs, but then your tY will indeed increase. Right now however all this is speculation until CCP releases exact numbers ;)


As a business person, I don't like uncertainty. Whether or not my current or planned run is profitable depends to a large extent upon certain costs I know I'm going to incur. For me the cost is crystallised when I actually buy the moon goo or components or minerals. Everything else is fixed. But now it seems CCP are going to introduce a variable cost factor I have no way of predicting. It's really quite obnoxious.


^This!

When you're running a large scale industrial operation, you need to know your costs ahead of time. Not have them vary day to day, hour by hour. This was the advantage of the POS. Now using a POS puts us in a disadvantage anyway you put it. Even if cost scaling stays stable enough not to affect anything, we either have to put in a lot more effort and risk by placing BPOs at the POS, or we have to put in less risk but still more effort and headache by having to copy items we want to build first. Why do I mention 'risk' for station copying? Because of the possibility that variable copy costs in station will no longer make it profitable to manufacture that item.

Overall, it's making it really easy for an individual to get into Industry, so more solo pilots who never want to put in much effort or interact with anyone will be able to do industry casually, almost anywhere, anytime. This comes at the expense of established industrialists though.



Using a POS does let you know your costs ahead of time. Even with cost scaling. Because you don't have random non-members putting in jobs, and driving the cost up in a non-predictable fashion.


Yes, but I addressed the other issues with it in the same post you quoted. It's either more effort/headache/risk or more effort/headache/no risk to BPO but risk to profit. It sucks either way.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!

Tora Hamaji
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1189 - 2014-04-17 18:21:50 UTC
- Add a new sizes of POS facilities:
  • Medium Size Lab/manufactory(10 slots of each)
  • Large Size (30 slots )

- Make a Central Facilities Control module that combines all the slots from the pos in one interface!

- Make it possible to install jobs with from the Personal Hangar Array!

- Also, 8 divisions is not enough to run some indy corps, while other corps need 0. perhaps it's time to update that piece of code to let us choose wallet and hangar divisions?


Oxide Ammar
#1190 - 2014-04-17 18:22:02 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
i look forward to crushing all of the ~industrialists~ who are unable to adapt to even small changes

the weaselior division of Goonswarm Incorporated will soon be dominating all of your old markets


I'm sure this will look perfect in your RL resume when you are applying to job, pls update your linkedin with your new skills like crushing and goon industrialist.

where the hell these ppl come from ?

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.

Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1191 - 2014-04-17 18:25:57 UTC
Tora Hamaji wrote:
- Add a new sizes of POS facilities:
  • Medium Size Lab/manufactory(10 slots of each)
  • Large Size (30 slots )

- Make a Central Facilities Control module that combines all the slots from the pos in one interface!

- Make it possible to install jobs with from the Personal Hangar Array!

- Also, 8 divisions is not enough to run some indy corps, while other corps need 0. perhaps it's time to update that piece of code to let us choose wallet and hangar divisions?


When CCP told us about the refining and compression changes, they also mentioned modifications and additions to POS modules. I would guess that there will at least be some modifications here as well. Of course we cannot rate anything by slots any more (no more slots).
Ssoraszh Tzarszh
Mellivora Nulla Irrumabo
#1192 - 2014-04-17 18:32:14 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Dast Aldurald wrote:
ok, all this is interesting but: 1) no standing needed for pos? really


I have a suggestion that would let CCP reward those who (like me too) grinded standings or have standings-raise professions and so on:

Idea Have the new POS slots fees depend (in a minor way) also from standings. Idea

So, everyone can put up a POS but those with standings get a discount.


Voilà, two birds with one stone! P


After having invested time and actual RL money training a few characters to be able to run a HS lab without penalizing myself not being in the same corp as my friends i think there should be some reward for grinding these standings.
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#1193 - 2014-04-17 18:50:03 UTC
Oxide Ammar wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
i look forward to crushing all of the ~industrialists~ who are unable to adapt to even small changes

the weaselior division of Goonswarm Incorporated will soon be dominating all of your old markets


I'm sure this will look perfect in your RL resume when you are applying to job, pls update your linkedin with your new skills like crushing and goon industrialist.

where the hell these ppl come from ?


Goon are stupid. Need I say more?
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1194 - 2014-04-17 19:15:26 UTC
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Oxide Ammar wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
i look forward to crushing all of the ~industrialists~ who are unable to adapt to even small changes

the weaselior division of Goonswarm Incorporated will soon be dominating all of your old markets


I'm sure this will look perfect in your RL resume when you are applying to job, pls update your linkedin with your new skills like crushing and goon industrialist.

where the hell these ppl come from ?


Goon are stupid. Need I say more?

Hey, ISD dudes. How's it going? Naw, I didn't need anything -- just making small talk. Your day been going okay?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#1195 - 2014-04-17 19:18:37 UTC
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Oxide Ammar wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
i look forward to crushing all of the ~industrialists~ who are unable to adapt to even small changes

the weaselior division of Goonswarm Incorporated will soon be dominating all of your old markets


I'm sure this will look perfect in your RL resume when you are applying to job, pls update your linkedin with your new skills like crushing and goon industrialist.

where the hell these ppl come from ?


Goon are stupid. Need I say more?


You mean smart enough to adapt?
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#1196 - 2014-04-17 19:18:49 UTC
This would be the perfect opportunity to put more weight on corporation standings by using it to reduce taxes for jobs by a not insignificant level. Though faction standing should not be as powerful as corporation standing, merely more universal. Maybe split the maximum tax reduction to 75%/25% corp/faction standing. Faction standing could still be applied to POS lines making the grind still useful.
Oxide Ammar
#1197 - 2014-04-17 19:23:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Oxide Ammar
Firvain wrote:
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Oxide Ammar wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
i look forward to crushing all of the ~industrialists~ who are unable to adapt to even small changes

the weaselior division of Goonswarm Incorporated will soon be dominating all of your old markets


I'm sure this will look perfect in your RL resume when you are applying to job, pls update your linkedin with your new skills like crushing and goon industrialist.

where the hell these ppl come from ?


Goon are stupid. Need I say more?


You mean smart enough to adapt?


CCP are feeding you (nullsec community) with golden spoon ...what the hell you are adapting for ? the new wealth income they are introducing to you ?

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1198 - 2014-04-17 19:27:50 UTC
Oxide Ammar wrote:
CCP are feeding you (nullsec community) with golden spoon ...what the hell you are adapting for ? the new wealth income they are introducing to you ?
What is being handed to them that isn't being handed out everywhere else?
Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#1199 - 2014-04-17 19:32:05 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Oxide Ammar wrote:
CCP are feeding you (nullsec community) with golden spoon ...what the hell you are adapting for ? the new wealth income they are introducing to you ?
What is being handed to them that isn't being handed out everywhere else?


This i would like to know too. Even though i am in goonswarm, i still do production in highsec aswel, and i am really not too fussed about these changes so far.
Oxide Ammar
#1200 - 2014-04-17 19:33:42 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Oxide Ammar wrote:
CCP are feeding you (nullsec community) with golden spoon ...what the hell you are adapting for ? the new wealth income they are introducing to you ?
What is being handed to them that isn't being handed out everywhere else?


If it isn't that obvious for you till now, with countless rebuffs to every aspect in game I don't see reason to write wall of text describing what are they.

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.