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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

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Author
Zeera Tomb-Raider
Vega Farscape
#1161 - 2014-04-17 15:09:18 UTC
Lucy Riraille wrote:
Although I like the announcement that Industry gets an overhaul, which it nedded pretty badly, I am somewhat confused about CCP's masterplan to whip any player who wishes to do some things efficiently into sov nulsec!

This is just a plain bad idea.
We know that CCP just loves nulsec and wants as many players as possible to go there.

BUT

Very few players live in Nulsec because of ****** game mechanics! Poor POS Management, awoxers, afk cloaky neuts,

Now industrial slots in Hisec will become absirdly expensive while Mittens sweethearts will be able to use outpost slots for far less?
Will all the hordes of nulsec industrialists be able to satisfy demand of Hisec?

NO!

Simply put: there are too few ibdustrialists in nulsec. And, as GSF and Mittens officially **** on prodders and miners, this change will have a tremendous impact on EVE ingame economics.

Unfortunately, CCP Management fails to understand that as Nulsec residents are simply a minority of eve players and that the majority of Industry and prodding takes place in Hisec and that this has been successfully so for many years, CCP executives do everything they can to nerf Hisec, the home of the majority of EVE players in a way that hopefully a few thousand industrialists will look at the changes, evaluate them and then throw their BPOs in the trash, quit their accounts and leave EVE for the elder scrolls online.

Ice has become a limited resource, thx to mechanic changes, Fuel prices raised a bit as icemining outside hisec became so profitable that the demand on the market could still b fulfilled.

Now every newbie plaer will be able to put a pos anywhere he likes. Why shouldn't there be any standing needed? At least some effort or at least someone elses effort (POS standing service) was needed to have a POS.
Corps payed rent for offices at stations (ISK DRAIN, good against inflation) so thexy could do research and produciton independently from the limitd availability of slots at stations. People used to laugh at other people who accidentally or deliberately stored their bPos inside a POS.

Why do you change this before putting POS management right?

Why do you want to punish poeple who have spent BILLIONS of ISK in BPOs research time and caring and refuelling of POSses?
In order to get better defense capabilities, will we be able to get starbase defense management as a starter skill? With no number of controllable pos modules perhaps?

Game development in EVE lacks a clear transparent und publicly advertised goal!

On the one hand, CCP removes effort/skill requirements for some things so that new player might have easier access (i.E. T1 industrial revamp and other examples). On the other hand highly specialized chars (time intensive skillings) are hit by the nerf hammer as the activites they trained for years now will be far profitable.

Does CCP wants us all to sit in Nulsec, permagrinding anos for faction and officer loot, making billions of isk? Like all the bot ratters in deklein?

Why does CCP wants to increase the income of all these nulsec RMT, that make hundreds of thousands of

They only love more things that allowe more things to be blown up.they are stedy but slowly adjusting hi sec to be more like low sec.they just want to se howe fare they can go before loosing subs so they take small steps ich update,if all nerf to hi sec and indy pilots that hawe been don sins i started had been don in 1 patch like upcomming patch they will hawe lost a lott more subs i think
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1162 - 2014-04-17 15:16:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Kadl
Abstract: Efficiency matters. CCP is creating large enough differences in efficiency that may make many methods unprofitable. Queue whining about transportation costs.

EVE_Wiki wrote:
Production Efficiency - The most critical skill for any production character. After you've bought it, train it until you reach Level 5. Production Efficiency is the single biggest must-have skill to be effective and competitive when producing goods, and unlike many skills, the payoff for reaching Level 5 is worth it. ... Each level trained in this skill will reduce the skill based material multiplier of 1.25 by 4%, which effectively translates to a 5% reduction in materials used to manufacture items per skill level.


A common mistake for young industrialists is to avoid that long level 5 train. They then do their calculations and discover that they cannot profitably make things. The last 5% reduction in material costs is required to make production profitable for many items particularly T1 items. Efficiency matters.

CCP is discussing adding a 0-14% congestion fee based on "base price." As pointed out to a young industrialist that spread is sufficient to make things unprofitable. The EVE players will find the one way (or two if we are lucky) to profitably make those items. Yes everyone can make things more expensively but a real industrialist does not worry so much about the fools throwing away money.

Who will have the efficiency to produce things the one way? We can guess that Jita Station manufacturing will be around the 14% mark. Perhaps a fully upgraded player owned Amarr outpost will be nearly 0%. We don't know where POSes will be. We don't know if low or null sec will get special bonuses. Crucially we don't know the formula for how fast the number of production jobs will push up the cost of production. It is possible that one fully upgraded Amarr outpost will be able to outproduce high sec with acceptable margins. CCP does not even need to intend that consequence they just need to make a small mistake in numbers.

Transportation costs may significantly influence final costs. Even with a high efficiency null sec might have problems with transportation. I expect more whining about how hard it is to move things and how freighter sizes (or tanks) must be increased.
D'Kelle
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1163 - 2014-04-17 15:35:09 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Firvain wrote:

you can, they said so in a post


For a single run, yes. But the costs will scale if you put on, say, 20 or 40 runs at the same time, as one often does. Is that cost predictable?

Another problem I have: If slots are being removed, are they being retained at POS's? If not, how is that going to work?

So much confusion. But from what I've read so far it's going to make the whole business intensely annoying to manage.


It will be interesting to see projected costs, for example the T2 Invention process, a process which recommends the using of max run T1 bpc's to ensure optimum runs of the T2 bpc's in this case probably around 3 to 8 runs per T2 bpc copy, allowing for a players skills amongst other things. In this example those new Hull repair drones are max runs of 1500 per bpc copy plus getting the optimum ME and PE costs onto the BPO first, all thess extra costs will apply not just for this one simple example item but everything that is made will have to be passed onto the consumer, THAT MEANS ALL OF YOU PILOTS! are you listening out there.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#1164 - 2014-04-17 15:36:31 UTC
I'm thinking there will be a 'Lazy Event Horizon', a zone where people can't be bothered going further out and having to haul stuff back to Jita/Dixie etc...these systems will become the benchmark for the congestion fee that will be tolerated...
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#1165 - 2014-04-17 15:37:09 UTC
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:

The sand is being drained away from the sandbox. That's all I'm saying. Eve is slowly starting to look like a theme park with no barriers of entry, no cooperation or interaction required to achieve serious results or goals.


Barriers of entry are more of a themepark trait, not sandbox. There is nothing sandboxy about having to grind through a billion quests to unlock the ability for your character to set up a factory.


You never had to. The standings grind was only for anchoring towers in hi sec. To anchor a tower in null sec you just have to reach an arrangement with the players out there. To anchor a tower in lowsec you just have to not draw attention to yourself.
Demetrius Hauber
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1166 - 2014-04-17 15:40:30 UTC
I have an issue with the new refining changes, why is refining instant? why aren't their refinery jobs with durations? why doesn't CCP want to give industrialist another bottle neck to manage and profit off of?
Hildebrandt Koeppl
Hybrid Flare
#1167 - 2014-04-17 15:44:05 UTC
How will the changes affect sharing POS capabilities on a alliance level - or even public.
Richt now I can share my research slots with ym alliance. after the change they would have to install the BPO inside the POS, which is - as far as I understand - not possible for players not in my corp and with the right roles to access POS modules. The ability to use a POS - or several - together in a alliance is a strong incentive to bind together - how will this be handled in the future?
Menaiya Zamayid
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1168 - 2014-04-17 15:44:56 UTC
I do not like most of the idea's presented here.
I don't know why people get this idea that BPO's are "cost-less." They are a significant investment cost. the material costs did not go away.

To build anything you have a really two ways to go about doing it. Either purchase a BPC pack that someone else already produced the requisite research time and made a copy for a nominal fee. (We all know that market is saturated to the point that unless you have extremely long researched BPO's to make copy from you won't make a dime.) and then just build the item direct.

Or you invest in a BPO. Research it yourself (if by some miracle under the current system you can fly a research slot somewhere anywhere, or own your own POS To do research which has its own issues with the current system)

The POS System as it currently stands is extremely broken in that All POS's are launched for Corporation with no real way to set up individual POS Access Control Lists."

So Now you want me To take my Expensively purchased BPO's that already cost god knows what (please do NOT mention Procurer to me right now) to go research in a pos in the vain hope of getting some of the isk I invested back.

The main complaint here is, you've already made it difficult to break into the invention and manufacturing. Now you're making it even more costly to the new guy.

Pros:
No more wait time for a slot.

Cons:
More costs on something already hideously expensive to do. The risk with BPO's is the amount of isk you invested into them.
More risk of theft.
Making industry even less profitable to the new guy not part of a major organization.


Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1169 - 2014-04-17 15:56:07 UTC
Menaiya Zamayid wrote:
I do not like most of the idea's presented here.
I don't know why people get this idea that BPO's are "cost-less." They are a significant investment cost. the material costs did not go away.

To build anything you have a really two ways to go about doing it. Either purchase a BPC pack that someone else already produced the requisite research time and made a copy for a nominal fee. (We all know that market is saturated to the point that unless you have extremely long researched BPO's to make copy from you won't make a dime.) and then just build the item direct.

Or you invest in a BPO. Research it yourself (if by some miracle under the current system you can fly a research slot somewhere anywhere, or own your own POS To do research which has its own issues with the current system)

The POS System as it currently stands is extremely broken in that All POS's are launched for Corporation with no real way to set up individual POS Access Control Lists."

So Now you want me To take my Expensively purchased BPO's that already cost god knows what (please do NOT mention Procurer to me right now) to go research in a pos in the vain hope of getting some of the isk I invested back.

The main complaint here is, you've already made it difficult to break into the invention and manufacturing. Now you're making it even more costly to the new guy.

Pros:
No more wait time for a slot.

Cons:
More costs on something already hideously expensive to do. The risk with BPO's is the amount of isk you invested into them.
More risk of theft.
Making industry even less profitable to the new guy not part of a major organization.





Or research it in a station, with no wait time. Sure, there will be an elevated (no idea how elevated, as this is in a later blog) cost, but it'll be cheaper than launching a whole pos and fueling it, just to research that blueprint.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#1170 - 2014-04-17 16:01:25 UTC
What is your plan for T2 BPOs?
Sigras
Conglomo
#1171 - 2014-04-17 16:05:47 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
I've looked through every dev post and still not seen this answered yet.

Are the extra materials going to be considered the base materials now with wastage added on? I'm not quite sure how this is going to work with invented T2 BPCs, as some T2 ship BPCs for example will end up requiring multiple T1 ships to construct. Is this working as intended?

If so then T2 items will be requiring more materials, unless you are lucky enough to own a fully researched T2 BPO. So again, another buff for T2 BPO holders.


All extra materials are turned into regular materials, that will indeed be now affected by skills and waste. Except for Tech I ships and items, as such:


  • You should never see a Paladin require 2 Apocalypses to build
  • You should never see a Large shield Extender II require 0.75 Large Shield Extender I to build

So the items like Silos, are they going to get cheaper because of research? or are you going to increase their required materials by 10% so they stay the same after research?
Rapscallion Jones
Omnibus Solutions
#1172 - 2014-04-17 16:21:52 UTC
Okay, all slots are removed including those for labs/arrays. So there will no longer be a need for more than one of each lab or array type at a POS, am I right?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1173 - 2014-04-17 16:22:40 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

CCP giveth and taketh away.

Sure, Sov Nullsec might reap some benefits form the industry expansion, making nullsec industry more profitable is generally a GOOD thing. I do my industry in highsec because there is little benefit to doing it in nullsec.

Remember, most industry takes place in highsec, and I doubt industry is going to massively uproot itself and move to nullsec. And also remmeber, a Sov revamp is on the to-do list, so exciting times will be here.


Let's be clear here.
CCP taketh from high sec and giveth to sov null sec.
And if you believe that the cartels will let any sov change come through that does not benefit them, well, you know better than that.

When this is all done, sov null sec will be better than high sec in every single way.
Better anoms, better rats, better ice, better rocks, better refining, and now, better industry efficiency.
The only thing that null won't have is the trade hubs, because the majority of the player base is still high sec players.


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.


I'm alright with nullsec being better than highsec. I firmly believe this game should provide benefits on two specific paradigms:
Risk vs Reward and Effort vs Reward.

After balancing industry, I'm confident they will rebalance Sov to remove the massive imbalances inherent within the system.
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1174 - 2014-04-17 16:23:36 UTC
Rapscallion Jones wrote:
Okay, all slots are removed including those for labs/arrays. So there will no longer be a need for more than one of each lab or array type at a POS, am I right?


Unknown. Additional arrays might reduce the congestion charges for your POS, or not.
Kaius Fero
#1175 - 2014-04-17 16:37:57 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
.....

I seriously hope that you will not be another fail CSM member like the ones so far, there is just enough kick in the ass for indy people already. Or if CCP wants us out, just let us know.

Somebody mentioned ESO earlier.. maybe I'm missing something, but manufacturing in ESO? I rather preffer GW2 for that, at least the market, inventions and even the manufacturing is the closest to what we have in EVE. Ofc.. it's still a themepark, but hey...

Anselmo & The Illegals

Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#1176 - 2014-04-17 16:42:38 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:
can we turn off the new interface and use the old one that we all know and love/hate?


No,*Snip* Removed off topic part of the post. ISD Ezwal.

Oh ISD, how we love you so much!!!!

...

Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#1177 - 2014-04-17 16:50:19 UTC
Aeonidis wrote:
Refining is getting a major nerf. Mineral compression is going away completely. instead there will only be 2 viable ways to move huge amounts of trit around in any sensible fashion. Rorqual->JF in Low/Null -or- Compression Array ->Freighter ->Station in High. Post patch no one is going to be shipping trit in an industrial that does any kind of capital production. Its going to have to stay in compressed rock form till it hits it final destination and then refined there with a specialized toon. Since Compression Arrays will be able to be anchored anywhere in High it only stands to reason that CCP needs to have the veld miners be able to use those arrays by also being able to compress their ore for logistics purposes. If all the veld miners had to suddenly start grinding standing to Anchor a stick what do you think would happen to the trit market and then New Eden industry as a whole? If the refining and mineral compression changes were happening at different times they might not have to do away with standings. My guess is that all this is leading to POS code changes down the road but they cant rewrite everything at once so some sacrifices have to be made to have the game at least be functional.


Thank you for an interesting point, however I think it doesn't negate my argument.

If miner corp wants to be efficient they would need to do something about it. They would need to either ask their friends with a POS for refining/compression - or buy a a corp with standings from players - or find a corp with a tower near them and offer them a deal for those services. If an individual miner wants to be efficient he'll have to find a good corp to join or work really hard and try to get it all himself. They would need to setup networks and find contacts in different locations to move the compressed ore about HS. If they refused to work together in such manner they can always just sell their ore on the Market and other entrepreneurs will gladly buy, compress and re-sell it.

All those possibilities for interaction, enterprises and group activities have been slimmed down to those who are ignorant of the mechanics or don't have time to run a POS themselves. And those type of people usually just sell to the market and don't add any meaningful interaction to the game.

As far as nullsec bears are concerned, their HS miners would need to either follow the same logic, or they can buy it on the market or they can always mine it locally or find corporations in HS and make deals with them instead of ganking them. The flavors of interaction were much more varied.

With standing requirement gone, anyone who just created a 1 man corp can setup a POS and run his own show without ever interacting with anyone, and that's what I don't like about it. POS used to be a goal you strive for, now they turned it into an expensive mobile structure. Things in the game have value because they're hard to attain. The concept of owning a POS just got devalued from a corp wide effort to a cost of a battleship for a single pilot.

Lastly about the code.... really? With everything wrong with the POS, I'm sure standings are their least concern. Unless they're planning to re-do it by thinning it down to a stick in space first.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!

Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1178 - 2014-04-17 16:56:28 UTC
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I do hope they are looking at a full mission overhaul now for maybe the winter release since standings grind is no longer as necessary (though it still gives access to higher mission levels, better refining etc)


Standings are still required for reprocessing & refining except if you want to use an array at a POS. Sounds like more 'dumbing down' of the game doesn't it. Sad

Standings are also still required to work for higher level mission agents.

Standings are still required to reduce taxes incurred from trading on the market.

Have I missed any other current reasons to have high standings ? Smile


There is a lot of confusion in this thread between faction standings and corp standings. Except for a very small maximal efficiency niche in your third point vis-a-vis market tax, you are talking about corp standing use cases, not faction standing (unmodified at that). You also forgot to mention jumpclones, but also a corp standing use case.
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#1179 - 2014-04-17 16:58:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Niko Lorenzio
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:

The sand is being drained away from the sandbox. That's all I'm saying. Eve is slowly starting to look like a theme park with no barriers of entry, no cooperation or interaction required to achieve serious results or goals.


Barriers of entry are more of a themepark trait, not sandbox. There is nothing sandboxy about having to grind through a billion quests to unlock the ability for your character to set up a factory.


Well, I'm talking about the last few expansions in general, but this is part of it. You used to have to work the foundation for your sandcastle, now it's already there for you. You used to have to design it's blueprint yourself, now it's provided on a silver platter. Starting to look like the Lego sets that you just have to piece together rather than a bunch of random blocks and being able to create your own stuff.

Things used to require teamwork and effort and they had value. A lot of activities and interactions are being devalued right now.

Regarding standings, I said that the grind wasn't a good choice for industrial characters, the way PVE wasn't ideal for pirates and PVP players. That's why they should have used the opportunity to create interactions there, not remove it.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!

GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#1180 - 2014-04-17 17:01:19 UTC
Not sure if this has been covered by anyone, the thread is stupid long and at this point i'm not going to waste my time reading all of it.

Station Component Blueprints - all their materials are currently in extra materials, this i'm assuming was to remove the need to research them - they are all perfect @ level 0. - Example Station Construction Parts blueprint, also i was going to use the evelopedia for a visual but its out of date and shows pre-planetary interaction values.

Small thought for the removal of faction standings for anchoring pos's - have faction standing affect the pos fuel consumption similiar to null sec sov. Giving some reward to high sec faction hugging industrial mission runners. Example 2.5% reduction per 1pt of faction standing so max of 25% reduction if they can achieve 10.0 standings, which should be rather hard to achieve outside a 1 man corp. Maths for this on a large non-faction tower comes down to 1 block per faction point, that being said i picked a 2.5% value because the math works well with a large non-faction tower, all other towers it becomes less simple.

Slot removal on pos's basically the only reasoning i can think of for this is the slot system coding is getting completely defunct in this patch and supporting legacy code and new code doing the same thing is near impossible.

I'm a bit worried about what the *costs* are going to be for running copies. As it seems *nothings free anymore even if you own it* concept is going to get shoved down our throats for the sake of isk sinks. I'm guessing that there is going to be a percentage value of a BPO's original cost incurred when making a copy, since everyone playing it *safe* will then be copying at a secure facility either player owned or NPC owned.

Also could we get the installations tab in science and industry fixed so you can't see build times on assembly lines that you don't have access to? This has been around since dominion and is a fairly terrible / mechanic / bug / exploit that gives out intel that should not be given out. Example - as a member of a corp you cannot even see what jobs are in build without a role. But you can look at installation on alliance and can deduce what is in build by everyone in alliance.