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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

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Darkblad
Doomheim
#1301 - 2014-03-23 01:00:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Darkblad
I got notified about some inconsistencies with the quantities of Minerals contained in compressed Ores. The approximate 38.1 % Bonus appears to be applied to the current mineral quantities of a block. Doing so creates different numbers compared to the ore compressed.
For example, take take a block of Veldspar:

166,500 units of Veldspar build a block, which currently contains 500,000 units of Tritanium. Batch size will remain 1.

( 500,000 x 1 / 1 ) x 1,381 = 690,500
This is the quantity given in the blog.

But now consider you reprocess those 166.500 units of Veldspar instead of compressing:
( 1,000 x 100 / 333 ) x 1,381 = 415 (rounded up from 414,714) for the new batch as shown in the blog.
166,500 / 100 = 1,665 batches

415 x 1,665 = 690,975 Tritanium
That's 475 units more in each block, compared to the devblog

The quantity of 415 units stays the same when I add more digits of the 1/0.724 value which is approximated as 38.1 %
However, if I follow the approach of applying the 1/0.724 bonus to a block's minerals:

500,000 / 0.724 = 690,608 (rounded up from 690,607.73)
This way, it's 108 more Tritanium in each block, compared to the devblog.

The compression table doesn't show the required quantities of uncompressed ore, therefore we had to assume that they don't change.
For a quick verification if they might have changed to match the new quantities of minerals:

690,500 / 415 = 1663.8554...
1663.8554... x 100 = 166,385.5421...
doesn't look like this is the case.

I created some tables using several approaches to calculate mineral quantities within the new range of blocks and subtracted the quantities of the devblog to show the difference. The tables in the "Comparison" sheet are

1. Bonus of 1.381 to raw ore minerals, then rounded up first and multiplied to block quantities
2. Bonus of 1/0.724 to block minerals, then rounded up
3. Bonus of 1/0.724 to ore minerals, then rounded up first and multiplied to block quantities

You'll find them in the google doc https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgZ5pxoOlog1dE5CdURmcFJxUERhczE3bjM5bU5halE

Another issue are the ore quantities for several blocks:

Pyroxeres = 49,950 Units
Spodumain = 1250 Units
Crokite = 1250 Units

The new uniform batch size will be 100 units for all ores ...

NPE – ISD – RIP
Emuar
Vak'Atioth War Veterans
#1302 - 2014-03-23 03:00:54 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:



simply not true. mods come from jita. ever ship that is not a battlecruiser or bigger comes from jita. battleships and battlecruisers sometimes are made locally. with minerals from jita.

lots of traders ? yes. lots of industrialists ? nope. in the few cases where it actually happens it's for jita. exceptions are caps, supercaps and a few battlecruisers and battleships. maybe some production from T2 BPOs. but that's rare


i was talking about real people (players) who have chars in null and chars in other part of space. people who can make few spreadsheets, can calculate profit and have patience to use industry tab. eve players are intelligent enough to be hardcore pvpers in null and to run some industry jobs with their alts. some players coordinating large scale moon mining operations, caps, supercaps production.

lets go back to topic - how these changes to refining will magically summon industrialist characters to sov null?

do sov holding alliances feel shortage on some items or ships?

do pvp alliances who live from renting and moon mining really need miners and industrialists at large quantities?

The mind is a constant. Unfortunately the number of people increases every year....
Scyllyn
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1303 - 2014-03-23 03:01:53 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

However, if you increase the base yield of Minmatar stations, you easily run into the situation where lowsec builders cannot compete with nullsec builders. To be frank, lowsec has similar levels of risks as nullsec. The efforts to build ships there is roughly the same. So, with little increased effort, and little increased risk, I don't see the justification in increasing reward.

This is not at all true. A lowsec builder builds in station: he is utterly invulnerable and can never lose his station or have his bpos locked up. He also has a factory/refinery: perfect refines, 50 slots. It's the latter that nullsec has been utterly unable to compete with, as nullsec has no factory/refineries.

Even if minmatar refines are boosted, a lowsec station is better than an un-upgraded minmatar station because the minmatar station doesn't have any factory slots (it only has 5, making it impossible to produce caps well there). You'd have to be building at a pos, and placing yourself at greater risk of losing your baby ships (something a lowsec producer can never lose).

In addition, in null, you can lose your build station: even if I spend 60 billion making an improved factory/refinery I can build in-station, I can lose that station and have all my caps/cap bpos locked up. No lowsec producer ever faces that risk. The lowsec producer simply moves in and doesn't have to work for his space, pay to upgrade it, defend it, and risk losing it. Nullsec producers must do all four. It's nonsense that they face "little increased effort" and "little increased risk", as a lowsec builder needs to expend no effort and suffer no risk.


You have BPO's in null? why would you have BPO's in null? Don't want your BPO's to be "locked up" ? use bpc's and keep bpo's in highsec where you will never get ganked as all the gankers are your minions anyway.....


Ohh wait you already do this and are trying to make yourself look braver by pretending your are stupid enough to have capital and super capital BPO's in null.... nvm got it now
Malcolm Lionel
Lionel War Industries
Gooseflock Featheration
#1304 - 2014-03-23 03:05:25 UTC
I don't like it. You just severly made my rorqual useless. Thanks for the "help"

A pos mod? Seriously?

I researched bluprints for monthes to compres in the rorqual, and now you make the ship worthless. Really?!
Lugues Slive
Diamond Light Industries
gold fever
#1305 - 2014-03-23 03:14:39 UTC
The one thing that I am concerned about is the export of minerals from hi sec to null sec. For all hi sec miners whom do not have access to a compression POS, they will continue to refine their ore for transport to trade hubs. That will make it harder for null mineral transporters to collect ore for compressing to haul to null sec.

I could see it being more beneficial either to make the ore compression a station service or a deployable or to make the compression mineral based instead of ore based. Either way, I think that the Rorqual should compress more efficiently that the POS module.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1306 - 2014-03-23 03:21:18 UTC
Lugues Slive wrote:

I could see it being more beneficial either to make the ore compression a station service or a deployable or to make the compression mineral based instead of ore based. Either way, I think that the Rorqual should compress more efficiently that the POS module.

I agree that compressing should be a station service as well. I'm not sure how to balance it against the pos module, though. Maybe the station service costs isk, or takes time to compress?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1307 - 2014-03-23 03:44:38 UTC
Quote:
i was talking about real people (players) who have chars in null and chars in other part of space. people who can make few spreadsheets, can calculate profit and have patience to use industry tab. eve players are intelligent enough to be hardcore pvpers in null and to run some industry jobs with their alts. some players coordinating large scale moon mining operations, caps, supercaps production.


you forgot the part where the alts are doing industry in Highsec.

large scale moon mining operations ? the moon goo is send to jita and sold. in some cases it's sold to the member corps or individual players. those then do reactions. on anonymous alts in lowsec. btw: did you know that reactions are entirely different from other industrial stuff ? mainly because they don't require sov, don't require outposts, don't require slots. all you need is an anonymous pos in lowsec.

caps and supercaps are the exceptions i acknowledge, just like some other edge cases. but the overwhelming majority of all building is happening in highsec. i have interviewed maybe 30 or 40 recruits for my corp. not a single one of these guys has ever even asked about doing industry in nullsec. many of them have done industry. in anonymous highsec corps.
Emuar
Vak'Atioth War Veterans
#1308 - 2014-03-23 03:45:24 UTC
remember that a lot people don't have perfect refine skills so they sell ore to anyone who will set ore buy orders higher than they can get from imperfect refining. these traders will compress ore or resell to someone who can compress it.
very possible that ore prices will jump up but that means minerals will cost more too - so sov null still will get their profit.

The mind is a constant. Unfortunately the number of people increases every year....
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1309 - 2014-03-23 03:49:38 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:

large scale moon mining operations ? the moon goo is send to jita and sold. in some cases it's sold to the member corps or individual players. those then do reactions. on anonymous alts in lowsec. btw: did you know that reactions are entirely different from other industrial stuff ? mainly because they don't require sov, don't require outposts, don't require slots. all you need is an anonymous pos in lowsec.

Sov confers a fuel bonus to towers, however, so if you have access to sov nullsec, you'd be a fool to run reactions anywhere else. Hell, we have some renters in Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere that rent specifically to get access to moons to run towers on at a fuel discount.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1310 - 2014-03-23 03:53:50 UTC
LP + isk for station compression Blink

Just to be different.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Lugues Slive
Diamond Light Industries
gold fever
#1311 - 2014-03-23 04:02:10 UTC
I think we could stick with a queue based system like manufacturing, set number of slots with a slower speed than a POS. Just make it possible for all.
Scyllyn
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1312 - 2014-03-23 04:19:12 UTC
Weaselior wrote:


You're asking that your risk-free effort-free station out compete sov 0.0. Thats nuts.


And your asking for a buff to your area for an area of the game that you have no interest in making use of?
And no intention of letting anyone else make use of either?

Why should CCP make 0.0 better than highsec for a section of gameplay that you will never ever let anyone be invloved in?
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1313 - 2014-03-23 04:21:40 UTC
Querns wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:

large scale moon mining operations ? the moon goo is send to jita and sold. in some cases it's sold to the member corps or individual players. those then do reactions. on anonymous alts in lowsec. btw: did you know that reactions are entirely different from other industrial stuff ? mainly because they don't require sov, don't require outposts, don't require slots. all you need is an anonymous pos in lowsec.

Sov confers a fuel bonus to towers, however, so if you have access to sov nullsec, you'd be a fool to run reactions anywhere else. Hell, we have some renters in Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere that rent specifically to get access to moons to run towers on at a fuel discount.


okay, fair point. you need quite a lot of towers to make renting worthwile, there is probably still a few people doing it. however, most of it is happening in anonymous lowsec corps, for a variety of reasons
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1314 - 2014-03-23 04:25:34 UTC
Quote:
Why should CCP make 0.0 better than highsec for a section of gameplay that you will never ever let anyone be invloved in?


wat ?

you can get access to prime nullsec space within a week, try contacting someone from one of the three big rental programs to forge a deal.

If you don't want to be a renter join a corp in NPC nullsec or a corp from one of the low-tier alliances within the powerblocks. anyone can become a part of nullsec within a week. you won't get a spot in the good corps or alliances in that time, but once you are in the not-so-good ones you can work your way up.
Emuar
Vak'Atioth War Veterans
#1315 - 2014-03-23 04:36:39 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:


you forgot the part where the alts are doing industry in Highsec.

large scale moon mining operations ? the moon goo is send to jita and sold. in some cases it's sold to the member corps or individual players. those then do reactions. on anonymous alts in lowsec. btw: did you know that reactions are entirely different from other industrial stuff ? mainly because they don't require sov, don't require outposts, don't require slots. all you need is an anonymous pos in lowsec.

caps and supercaps are the exceptions i acknowledge, just like some other edge cases. but the overwhelming majority of all building is happening in highsec. i have interviewed maybe 30 or 40 recruits for my corp. not a single one of these guys has ever even asked about doing industry in nullsec. many of them have done industry. in anonymous highsec corps.


i haven't forgot it, that's why i said that null already have a lot indi capable players (not indi chars).

that's up to alliance to sell that moon goo as rough source or do some reaction. that's alliance choice. you can get nice profit from doing it, sov space poses use less fuel so it more profitable to do reactions in sov space. i am not pretending that i know everything, but i am not one month old grunt who know eve from trailers, some nice youtube videos and "friends".

so you complaining that recruits (who trying to join one of the top pvp alliances) want to be pvpers? they have enough isk and they wana use their new shiny toys, that's is normal.

so how new refining in sov null will change people attitude if they want pvp not industry?

The mind is a constant. Unfortunately the number of people increases every year....
Emuar
Vak'Atioth War Veterans
#1316 - 2014-03-23 04:41:51 UTC
Querns wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:

large scale moon mining operations ? the moon goo is send to jita and sold. in some cases it's sold to the member corps or individual players. those then do reactions. on anonymous alts in lowsec. btw: did you know that reactions are entirely different from other industrial stuff ? mainly because they don't require sov, don't require outposts, don't require slots. all you need is an anonymous pos in lowsec.

Sov confers a fuel bonus to towers, however, so if you have access to sov nullsec, you'd be a fool to run reactions anywhere else. Hell, we have some renters in Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere that rent specifically to get access to moons to run towers on at a fuel discount.


oh you was faster than me
now i understand why CFC so good at everything - they have some people with brains

The mind is a constant. Unfortunately the number of people increases every year....
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1317 - 2014-03-23 04:42:07 UTC
dude, you are confusing as hell:

Quote:
a lot serious industrialists already in null and you can sell mods, ships for local residents with very nice profit (if you have access to stations).


my whole argument is based on that statement of yours about serious industry happening in nullsec
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1318 - 2014-03-23 04:42:08 UTC
Born2beSlut wrote:
Having better refining yields in null sec than high sec destroys competition and forces serious industrialists to join null sec alliances in order to maintain their profit margin .
Also worst refining yields will hurt mission running income , will hurt salvaging corporations and will generate less tritanium etc tritanium --->ships will become more expensive .
I dont really know whats the ratio mining asteroids for tritanium vs refining loot for tritanium so i dont really know where the market will balance .



Mission runners will lose less than 5% pay per mission if they kill and salvage everything. You earn more isk by blitzing missions and ignoring loot all together.

Having better refine yield in null gives miners a reason to go to null, highsec miners will see no change in their isk income.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1319 - 2014-03-23 04:50:01 UTC
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
I don't like it. You just severly made my rorqual useless. Thanks for the "help"

A pos mod? Seriously?

I researched bluprints for monthes to compres in the rorqual, and now you make the ship worthless. Really?!


Rorqual is getting its own revamp at a later date.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1320 - 2014-03-23 04:53:08 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
I don't like it. You just severly made my rorqual useless. Thanks for the "help"

A pos mod? Seriously?

I researched bluprints for monthes to compres in the rorqual, and now you make the ship worthless. Really?!


Rorqual is getting its own revamp at a later date.


and even before that, it's a nice mini jumpfreighter and the best mining booster.