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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

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Mario Putzo
#1261 - 2014-03-22 16:11:03 UTC
Querns wrote:
The change, as proposed, actually provides this "de-clustering" as you've described by making it vastly more cost-efficient to jump ore out of Jita into nullsec, where it can be refined at a bonus, and exporting minerals back to highsec.


No it doesn't.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1262 - 2014-03-22 16:14:21 UTC
Emuar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Emuar wrote:
though we talking here not about bots, so why player owned outpost must have highest refine rates? why wh residents won't get the same refine rates? why we can't get the same refine rates in pos?


Because not only do WH dwellers risk less but we also would have the issue of a lowsec POS parked next door to highsec offering the same refine rate as a null station. Nobody would use the null station in that situation as you get the same refine rate in a lowsec pos for less risk, effort and cost.


nice logic.. where arguments? why won't your grunts use their stations if they get the same refine rate as they would get in low sec (highsec)? outpost gives a lot more comfort than pos and they usefull not only for refining so effort and cost to build outpost can't be the main reason here.
they won't use null station only in one situation - if they won't like refine tax.

with these changes sov owning alliances (not only CFC) will get upper hand in capital production driving out others from that market, hell they get upper hand in every item production what they will choose.


The outpost costs 60 billion to upgrade.
Mario Putzo
#1263 - 2014-03-22 16:18:09 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Emuar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Emuar wrote:
though we talking here not about bots, so why player owned outpost must have highest refine rates? why wh residents won't get the same refine rates? why we can't get the same refine rates in pos?


Because not only do WH dwellers risk less but we also would have the issue of a lowsec POS parked next door to highsec offering the same refine rate as a null station. Nobody would use the null station in that situation as you get the same refine rate in a lowsec pos for less risk, effort and cost.


nice logic.. where arguments? why won't your grunts use their stations if they get the same refine rate as they would get in low sec (highsec)? outpost gives a lot more comfort than pos and they usefull not only for refining so effort and cost to build outpost can't be the main reason here.
they won't use null station only in one situation - if they won't like refine tax.

with these changes sov owning alliances (not only CFC) will get upper hand in capital production driving out others from that market, hell they get upper hand in every item production what they will choose.


The outpost costs 60 billion to upgrade.


Shouldn't be to hard to get that through your passive moongoo empire.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1264 - 2014-03-22 16:20:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

The outpost costs 60 billion to upgrade.


it's ~65b to build one from scratch and ~43b to upgrade an egg to a T3 refinery
Emuar
Vak'Atioth War Veterans
#1265 - 2014-03-22 16:21:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Emuar
Querns wrote:
The change, as proposed, actually provides this "de-clustering" as you've described by making it vastly more cost-efficient to jump ore out of Jita into nullsec, where it can be refined at a bonus, and exporting minerals back to highsec.


in other words - those who own outpost in null close to jita will get the highest profit, guess who?

The mind is a constant. Unfortunately the number of people increases every year....
Emuar
Vak'Atioth War Veterans
#1266 - 2014-03-22 16:31:43 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

The outpost costs 60 billion to upgrade.


it's ~65b to build one from scratch and ~43b to upgrade an egg to a T3 refinery


since when that became a lot of isk for "we so rich bla bla" folk? indestructible asset if you lose it you can reclaim it later

The mind is a constant. Unfortunately the number of people increases every year....
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1267 - 2014-03-22 16:57:44 UTC
Emuar wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

The outpost costs 60 billion to upgrade.


it's ~65b to build one from scratch and ~43b to upgrade an egg to a T3 refinery


since when that became a lot of isk for "we so rich bla bla" folk? indestructible asset if you lose it you can reclaim it later


Losing an egg still hurts.
Inspiration
#1268 - 2014-03-22 16:59:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
Gilbaron wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

The outpost costs 60 billion to upgrade.


it's ~65b to build one from scratch and ~43b to upgrade an egg to a T3 refinery


Which is easily in the price range of many individual players! Let alone the organisations on top of this that can use it to tax and have a solid base of operations by owning one.

If this is the complete price of one (i always though it was more) they are actually a steal. You got to be able to defend them tho, thus its a little more complex then this. But base value seems very affordable to alliances.

I am serious!

Mario Putzo
#1269 - 2014-03-22 17:03:23 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Emuar wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

The outpost costs 60 billion to upgrade.


it's ~65b to build one from scratch and ~43b to upgrade an egg to a T3 refinery


since when that became a lot of isk for "we so rich bla bla" folk? indestructible asset if you lose it you can reclaim it later


Losing an egg still hurts.


Then don't lose it.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1270 - 2014-03-22 17:04:58 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:


Then don't lose it.


Easier said than done.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1271 - 2014-03-22 17:06:08 UTC
Emuar wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

The outpost costs 60 billion to upgrade.


it's ~65b to build one from scratch and ~43b to upgrade an egg to a T3 refinery


since when that became a lot of isk for "we so rich bla bla" folk? indestructible asset if you lose it you can reclaim it later


Straight

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Inspiration
#1272 - 2014-03-22 17:06:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
Emuar wrote:
Querns wrote:
The change, as proposed, actually provides this "de-clustering" as you've described by making it vastly more cost-efficient to jump ore out of Jita into nullsec, where it can be refined at a bonus, and exporting minerals back to highsec.


in other words - those who own outpost in null close to jita will get the highest profit, guess who?


Nah, he was talking out of his big behind. The volume of ore and minerals is simply too large. He does have a point that 'some' de-clustering might happen. Moving ore to Jita is insane (volume wise), so there will be local compression needed to feed Jita with compressed ore.

Compression needs to be done in POS. There is a reasonable chance we see the rise of middleman, buying up ore and compressing that ore to enable shipment.

Maybe, just maybe this is what CCP is hoping for and are willing to wait and see first before going further like what i would have done. It also is a matter of how many code changes they need to do, which i have no objective way of determining.

I am serious!

Mario Putzo
#1273 - 2014-03-22 17:06:45 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:


Then don't lose it.


Easier said than done.


No not really, but I know :effort:.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1274 - 2014-03-22 17:10:15 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:


Then don't lose it.


Easier said than done.


No not really, but I know :effort:.


Not only might it die before it can hatch but they can take the station off you when it is built.

Just ask N3 how many trillions they lost when we deadzoned their staging system.
Mario Putzo
#1275 - 2014-03-22 17:15:17 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:


Then don't lose it.


Easier said than done.


No not really, but I know :effort:.


Not only might it die before it can hatch but they can take the station off you when it is built.

Just ask N3 how many trillions they lost when we deadzoned their staging system.


Again so what, don't let people take it, and if N3 didn't put all their eggs in one basket it wouldn't have hurt so much when that basket got knocked over.

Poor decisions by leadership and players is no basis for balancing changes. Its not the mechanics of the game that do either of those things you listed. That is player choices. Huge difference friend.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1276 - 2014-03-22 17:17:40 UTC
Quote:
Just ask N3 how many trillions they lost when we deadzoned their staging system.


lol
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1277 - 2014-03-22 17:19:33 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:


Again so what, don't let people take it, and if N3 didn't put all their eggs in one basket it wouldn't have hurt so much when that basket got knocked over.

Poor decisions by leadership and players is no basis for balancing changes. Its not the mechanics of the game that do either of those things you listed. That is player choices. Huge difference friend.


Its shows the risk we all take when we set up in 0.0.

This is why these stations are going to be the best for refining, they face the most risk, they cost the most and they take the most effort to defend.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1278 - 2014-03-22 17:21:13 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
Quote:
Just ask N3 how many trillions they lost when we deadzoned their staging system.


lol


Hey to your credit it didn't end you plus you ate one of our eggs.
Emuar
Vak'Atioth War Veterans
#1279 - 2014-03-22 17:40:57 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:


Again so what, don't let people take it, and if N3 didn't put all their eggs in one basket it wouldn't have hurt so much when that basket got knocked over.

Poor decisions by leadership and players is no basis for balancing changes. Its not the mechanics of the game that do either of those things you listed. That is player choices. Huge difference friend.


Its shows the risk we all take when we set up in 0.0.

This is why these stations are going to be the best for refining, they face the most risk, they cost the most and they take the most effort to defend.


how many timers there are if you want take over station and how many timers to take down the pos? can you get that destructed pos back after few days?
one guy undocked 40b raven some time ago in high sec. it ended really well - do we need reward him? you know, risk/reward Lol

The mind is a constant. Unfortunately the number of people increases every year....
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1280 - 2014-03-22 17:45:00 UTC
Emuar wrote:


how many timers there are if you want take over station and how many timers to take down the pos? can you get that destructed pos back after few days?
one guy undocked 40b raven some time ago in high sec. it ended really well - do we need reward him? you know, risk/reward Lol


POS cost a fraction of the price of an outpost and are easily replaced.

That guy was a moron, his raven was 60 bil and we scammed another one out of him.