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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

First post First post First post
Author
Emuar
Vak'Atioth War Veterans
#1321 - 2014-03-23 05:00:31 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
dude, you are confusing as hell:

Quote:
a lot serious industrialists already in null and you can sell mods, ships for local residents with very nice profit (if you have access to stations).


my whole argument is based on that statement of yours about serious industry happening in nullsec



serious industry indeed happening. Do you want to convince us that supers,caps, reactions - that's joke, the same like to produce some ammo?

btw in your linked sentence there is nothing about serious industry happening, i said "serious industrialists already in null"

The mind is a constant. Unfortunately the number of people increases every year....

Zorena
Expressed Choreography
Ride My Turtle
#1322 - 2014-03-23 05:03:35 UTC
Any chance that we have a chance to refund the skills?
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1323 - 2014-03-23 05:05:03 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:


Shouldn't be to hard to get that through your passive moongoo empire.
And there is the main reason few if any stations will get the required upgrades. Unless the alliance can get a good return from an investment, it just won't happen. To get that return on a station upgrade means taxing it. A few alliances charge refining taxes now, increasing tax to pay for the upgrade would only make it unprofitable to use.
A few super builders may upgrade their stations to keep their own costs down, while passing the costs of the upgrade on to customers.
Sov nulsec industry will never be supported by alliances. It is just not viable when compared to jumping everything out from Jita.
(and dead mackinaws look bad on their killboards)

Best and most likely outcome of these changes - Empire industrialists increase prices to compensate for the added costs to their production. Nulsec alliances (members) absorb these costs and simply pay a little more for everything.
New Status Quo will be reached and maintained.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1324 - 2014-03-23 05:05:24 UTC
Zorena wrote:
Any chance that we have a chance to refund the skills?


No.
Andrea Keuvo
Rusty Pricks
#1325 - 2014-03-23 06:08:19 UTC
Lugues Slive wrote:
The one thing that I am concerned about is the export of minerals from hi sec to null sec. For all hi sec miners whom do not have access to a compression POS, they will continue to refine their ore for transport to trade hubs. That will make it harder for null mineral transporters to collect ore for compressing to haul to null sec.

I could see it being more beneficial either to make the ore compression a station service or a deployable or to make the compression mineral based instead of ore based. Either way, I think that the Rorqual should compress more efficiently that the POS module.



Don't forget that you can have an entire freighter of ore moved in hisec for 500k isk per jump. People witha proper refining POS set up will place buy orders for the raw ore which they will then compress and move to jita. Stop thinking about ore compression as something that the average hisec miner will do themselves. It's just not efficient - this change will create a new profession of people who compress ore in the various areas where a lot of mining happens.
ctx2007
Industrial Mining and Mayhem HS
Mayhem Unlimited
#1326 - 2014-03-23 07:33:17 UTC
CCP is slowly killing EVE because it nerfs something in every expansion Sad

You only realise you life has been a waste of time, when you wake up dead.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1327 - 2014-03-23 07:42:03 UTC
ctx2007 wrote:
CCP is slowly killing EVE because it nerfs something in every expansion Sad


Nerfs are a part of balancing the game. They cannot simply buff their way out of problems because that leads to power creep which is very damaging to the game.

That said the only nerf here is to refining junk mods which ammounts to near nothing off a mission runner who salvages everything. People who blitz (which earns you more isk) will not see any nerf either.
Marcus Aurelijus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1328 - 2014-03-23 09:08:01 UTC
Although I understand whats being done here, I understand the reasons behind it and i can mostly get behind them this development shows me two problems.

1) yet ANOTHER! way where null sec based power block can outearn the lesser guys. Which basically means anyone not in at least a few hundred man alliance. And don't come whining about the added risk of null-sec mining. If your in bleu area and know how to keep half an eye on directional not all that much risk....no more or less then plexing anyway.

CCP keeps stating that they want more people to move out of high and they keep developing things that make it harder. If you are an upstart and the established local can outgun you 5-1 as well as maintaining a model where they could kill you 1:1 (very badly played by them then) and still run you into the ground economically it is never gonna work.



2) It goes against anything even remote logical universe/lore wise.
Where does it make any logical mundane this-is-how-bussiness-works sense to have the
lawless, underpoliced, high risk, well-****-up-your-station- if-we-can area have a better
industrial complex then well policed, we haven't seen a real distubance in 50 years, your
expensive investments are mostly safe here, environment.
thats like expecting somalian/algerian/whatever-war-torn-no-peace-ever-for-5-years-solid-
ian country to have a better developed undustrial complex then say the Ruhr-area in
Germany.

I could figure out if was possible through high investment to make A (single) station /
system where you could reach the same level or even surpass in rare-ish cases - but not as a
general rule (plonk down any oldpos with any old refinery and work better then a station
system)

the tldr:
I'm fine with all this.

It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense looking at it from any other perspective then helping out groups that are least in need of any help (really the whole compression improvement would have gone a long way on its own). It help already hulking powerblocks be unbeatable in yet anotehr way.

It wrecks lore and logic.

that all
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1329 - 2014-03-23 09:32:17 UTC
Marcus Aurelijus wrote:
Although I understand whats being done here, I understand the reasons behind it and i can mostly get behind them this development shows me two problems.

1) yet ANOTHER! way where null sec based power block can outearn the lesser guys. Which basically means anyone not in at least a few hundred man alliance. And don't come whining about the added risk of null-sec mining. If your in bleu area and know how to keep half an eye on directional not all that much risk....no more or less then plexing anyway.

CCP keeps stating that they want more people to move out of high and they keep developing things that make it harder. If you are an upstart and the established local can outgun you 5-1 as well as maintaining a model where they could kill you 1:1 (very badly played by them then) and still run you into the ground economically it is never gonna work.



2) It goes against anything even remote logical universe/lore wise.
Where does it make any logical mundane this-is-how-bussiness-works sense to have the
lawless, underpoliced, high risk, well-****-up-your-station- if-we-can area have a better
industrial complex then well policed, we haven't seen a real distubance in 50 years, your
expensive investments are mostly safe here, environment.
thats like expecting somalian/algerian/whatever-war-torn-no-peace-ever-for-5-years-solid-
ian country to have a better developed undustrial complex then say the Ruhr-area in
Germany.

I could figure out if was possible through high investment to make A (single) station /
system where you could reach the same level or even surpass in rare-ish cases - but not as a
general rule (plonk down any oldpos with any old refinery and work better then a station
system)

the tldr:
I'm fine with all this.

It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense looking at it from any other perspective then helping out groups that are least in need of any help (really the whole compression improvement would have gone a long way on its own). It help already hulking powerblocks be unbeatable in yet anotehr way.

It wrecks lore and logic.

that all


Tell me, why would you do mining and refining in null if high sec offers the exact same reward?
Marcus Aurelijus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1330 - 2014-03-23 09:38:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Aurelijus
If you actually read the post you would see thats not the point im making as well as i already got you covered in the first sentence. (Hey look at that- another powerblock-er who isnt satiesfied with already being able to outgun and outearn everybody else already Roll)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1331 - 2014-03-23 09:43:17 UTC
Marcus Aurelijus wrote:
If you actually read the post you would see thats not the point im making as well as i already got you covered in the first sentence. (Hey look at that- another powerblock-er who isnt satiesfied with already being able to outgun and outearn everybody else already Roll)


"yet ANOTHER! way where null sec based power block can outearn the lesser guys."


So what was that comment all about if not about null having an advantage and reason to mine and refine in null rather than high sec?

Mag's
Azn Empire
#1332 - 2014-03-23 09:51:09 UTC
Zorena wrote:
Any chance that we have a chance to refund the skills?
They are required and actually work better if trained to 5 with this change. So why would CCP even consider that?

So no, it's a silly request and will not happen.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Salvos Rhoska
#1333 - 2014-03-23 09:54:29 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Tell me, why would you do mining and refining in null if high sec offers the exact same reward?


Doesnt the ore varieties available in null answer this in some part atleast on the mining side of things?

Ice being the exception, as a flat commodity available everywhere in predictable location and duration.
(Hopefully something to be addressed eventually)

On the refining side of things I agree player run installations should have an incentive over NPC stations.
Darkblad
Doomheim
#1334 - 2014-03-23 09:55:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Darkblad
Marcus Aurelijus wrote:
2) It goes against anything even remote logical universe/lore wise.
Consider the future vision of capsuleers gaining more control over the EVE universe. Consider the worried looking CONCORD guy looking even more worried in the next trailer.
CCP Falcon wrote:
"Damn capsuleers, they're at it again..."
From here

NPEISDRIP

Marcus Aurelijus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1335 - 2014-03-23 09:57:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Aurelijus
baltec1 wrote:
Marcus Aurelijus wrote:
If you actually read the post you would see thats not the point im making as well as i already got you covered in the first sentence. (Hey look at that- another powerblock-er who isnt satiesfied with already being able to outgun and outearn everybody else already Roll)


"yet ANOTHER! way where null sec based power block can outearn the lesser guys."


So what was that comment all about if not about null having an advantage and reason to mine and refine in null rather than high sec?



Why cant anyone post anything anymore whithout a goon pikinese yapping at their ankles?

The answer to your question is in the text itself. And its META to this partocular change.
Perhaps you need another bit of pre-chewing of the contained info: Reason to mine and refine in null....uhm logistics (one could make a point that moving ore isnt too difficult/expensive- its not difficult/expensive enough)? Doing other stuff than blob fighting?

Im already regretting posting again - it always ends the same.

However - we do have a post by someone who did some thinking..

Darkblad wrote:
Marcus Aurelijus wrote:
2) It goes against anything even remote logical universe/lore wise.
Consider the future vision of capsuleers gaining more control over the EVE universe. Consider the worried looking CONCORD guy looking even more worried in the next trailer.
CCP Falcon wrote:
"Damn capsuleers, they're at it again..."
From here


Yep which is why i said i can understand if you upgrade some systems to a god-that-much-billions-hub in zero (smack in your blue space) i dont mind. Perfectly understable if you consider the annoying tendencies of capuleers in New Eden.

Thats not what is happening now. Anyone who plunks down a simpelpos with a simple reactor is already doing better then the these-systems-have-been-developed-for-hundres of-years empire systems (who if try and measureit out a bit should equal or overpower all but the largest null sec allianes in economic development of things...)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1336 - 2014-03-23 10:10:28 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Tell me, why would you do mining and refining in null if high sec offers the exact same reward?


Doesnt the ore varieties available in null answer this in some part atleast on the mining side of things?

Ice being the exception, as a flat commodity available everywhere in predictable location and duration.
(Hopefully something to be addressed eventually)

On the refining side of things I agree player run installations should have an incentive over NPC stations.


Its the refining that was stopping miners from going to null. By far the biggest need in everything is low end ores and frankly, high sec has just as much of the stuff as null. Sure our rocks look bigger but you are just as good stripping a high sec system as null.

This change to refining means that mining in null for low ends is an attractive option and makes building things in null a lot eaiser. It also means we can import big volumes of minerals from high sec easier and for less cost which again, is going to be a big help for producing in null.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1337 - 2014-03-23 10:16:19 UTC
Marcus Aurelijus wrote:


Why cant anyone post anything anymore whithout a goon pikinese yapping at their ankles?

The answer to your question is in the text itself. And its META to this partocular change.
Perhaps you need another bit of pre-chewing of the contained info: Reason to mine and refine in null....uhm logistics (one could make a point that moving ore isnt too difficult/expensive- its not difficult/expensive enough)? Doing other stuff than blob fighting?



Logisticly its cheaper to import finished goods than to import minerals and build as it currently stands.
Salvos Rhoska
#1338 - 2014-03-23 10:48:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
baltec1 wrote:
This change to refining means that mining in null for low ends is an attractive option and makes building things in null a lot eaiser. It also means we can import big volumes of minerals from high sec easier and for less cost which again, is going to be a big help for producing in null.


Doesnt this create a reverse impetus though?

At the same time as mining becomes more profitable and efficient in null, due to logistic ease of refining the ore at a higher efficiency locally, with less transport involved, the compression of high-sec ores and transporting those to the same high efficiency null refineries is also added.

Why not just continue mining in high-sec with alts in safety, compressing and shipping to null-sec refineries?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1339 - 2014-03-23 10:57:06 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
This change to refining means that mining in null for low ends is an attractive option and makes building things in null a lot eaiser. It also means we can import big volumes of minerals from high sec easier and for less cost which again, is going to be a big help for producing in null.


Doesnt this create a reverse impetus though?

At the same time as mining becomes more profitable and efficient in null, due to logistic ease of refining the ore at a higher efficiency locally, with less transport involved, the compression of high-sec ores and transporting those to the same high efficiency null refineries is also added.

Why not just continue mining in high-sec with alts in safety, compressing and shipping to null-sec refineries?


A 20% bonus to your income right on your doorstep is worth the risk.

Salvos Rhoska
#1340 - 2014-03-23 11:31:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
baltec1 wrote:
A 20% bonus to your income right on your doorstep is worth the risk.


Yes, but null gets that 20% bonus regardless of where the ore/ice originates from.

Though there is an increased incentive to mine in null, that same time spent mining can also be spent instead in hauling compressed high-sec ore/ice for the same 20% bonus in null refineries.

So the status quo and incentive on actually utilising null resources, is still mitigated by that same time instead being spent in hauling from high-sec, as was the case before the change.

Whereas before that activity involved hauling compressed guns for reprocessing into minerals in null, the same activity now continues instead as hauling compressed ice/ore with an additional profit due to the refining rates that exceeds that which was possible with gun compression hauling.

Subsequently it also becomes possible for null to manufacture that direct increased refining yield of compressed ice/ore from high-sec into products, which can then be compressed and re-shipped back to high-sec markets for sale at a margin that high-sec manufacturing cannot feasibly match due to high-sec not being able to compete with the ice/ore refine yield in minerals garnered by null from the compressed ice/ore they imported from high in the first place.

What actual mining activity this might incentivise in null, would be for the ore types that are not available in high, which again, due to the refining change, can be added to the base minerals garnered efficiently from refining of imported high-sec compressed ice/ore, manufactured, compressed, and re-shipped to high-sec again for a margin that cannot be met by high-sec not only due to their local reduced refinery rates, but also due to their inability to access "cheap" rarer ores in high-sec, and even if they could, they could only refine them at a lower efficiency.

Furthermore, due to the reprocessing nerf, null actually becomes even more dependant on minerals acquired through other means. Though this to a small degree incentivises mining in null for those minerals instead, as I demonstrated above, they can and will still be aquired from high-sec instead.

Am I correct in any of this?

So though it incentives null mining (of rare ores) to a small degree, the real profit and efficiency is still in importing compressed high-sec ice/ore (whereas before it was compressed guns) refining that at an increased efficiency, manufacturing it, and then re-selling product in high-sec at a margin that high-sec manufacturers cannot match due to their own native lower refinement rates.

I don't think this is necessarily "bad" for high-sec, but I think the incentive for null actually finally utilising its own domestic resources to the full is a bit overstated in many interpretations of this change. The best efficiency and profit, to my understanding, is still in importing high-sec ice/ore, which infact is now more efficient in mineral yield than gun compression ever was, not in mining domestically in null.

I don't think we will really see a substantial degree of null utilising its own ore resources as a result.

If compressing high-sec ice/ore was restricted, yes, that would certainly massively incentivise domestic mining in null, but that is not the proposed change.

Alts of null-dwellers can continue to mine in the safety of high-sec, compress and haul their ice/ore to null, get an increased efficiency yield in minerals, manufacture, and sell back to high-sec. At every stage of this process the profits accumulate above and beyond what was the case today, and it doesn't even require you to mine in null instead.