These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Null sec what chance does the little guy have

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#441 - 2014-02-15 21:42:05 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
@Nineteen Seventy-Nine:

What you're asking for is basically wormhole space.

Artificial limits on capacity included. With a considerably more inventive method than "don't let them blue more than X".


I may be wrong but I also recall mention of 3rd party applications that can be used to "blue" pilots externally if the number of blues is limited internally.

A fair idea on paper but...


First, nothing like wormhole space. I know my post is long, but at least read it if you want to comment.

As to the 3rd party applications (and any other metagame)...

This is why I said no one should even contemplate trying to stop people from banding together.
They shouldn't, and you can't.

You just don't need to facilitate the organization of massive size using in-game features and lack of limitations.

Logic would suggest that anything that doesn't facilitate organization will (for better or worse) promote conflict (or at least division)

Take off the training wheels for groups past a couple hundred.
The 'fog of war' (so to speak) will take care of the rest.

Some might view this as "needless complications of game mechanics"

Of course, I hear those people much like I hear the CEO of a Oil company talking about "needless job-killing regulations" after a preventable environmental disaster.

And let's call a spade a spade eh?


I can think of nothing more apt to describe the "blue donut" than "preventable environmental disaster" Lol

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#442 - 2014-02-15 21:52:48 UTC
You realize all that you want to achieve can be done by nerfing highsec right? More competition means more pressure on big groups and desirable resources to play upon people's greed.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#443 - 2014-02-15 21:54:01 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
I can think of nothing more apt to describe the "blue donut" than "preventable environmental disaster" Lol


Except the blue donut is a myth.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#444 - 2014-02-15 22:05:01 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
You realize all that you want to achieve can be done by nerfing highsec right? More competition means more pressure on big groups and desirable resources to play upon people's greed.


Depending on exactly what you mean by "nerf", it might help a little but fundamentally the fact is that EVE is only 7 minutes wide.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#445 - 2014-02-15 22:05:04 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
You realize all that you want to achieve can be done by nerfing highsec right? More competition means more pressure on big groups and desirable resources to play upon people's greed.



Wow, you couldn't be more wrong.

Or biased.

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#446 - 2014-02-15 22:29:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Inxentas Ultramar
Timers are hardly an issue. On the defensive you are happy with them, on the offensive it requires extra effort - to me a little imbalance avouring the defender is good, change shouldn't come too easy.

Glad to see the topic go over the subject of diplomacy, and La Nariz obviously has some different ideas about it, proposing something in the line of the way of least resistance. I've been in the situation where I was told to either bend the knee or face eviction, and chose eviction. Some POCOs were flipped and now we have "Summon The Nullsec Cap Ships" buttons instead. We've faked structure bashes to set up cap traps before, and while you operate against the odds that's actually the charm of being the little guy and retaining full autonomy.

Nullsec overlords are unresponsive to the fact the "worst end of the deal" is usually economically so bad, hisec offers better alternatives. If hisec wasn't such a faucet or low would be better, you might get away with it. Lowsec simply doesn't yield enough reward to justify extortion rackets from nullsec on top. Not if they don't translate into actual protection. In short: it's a bad copy of a business model that does work for groups like us when squeezing true carebears that want safe passage and intact POS modules. I'm not a wellfare institute, if you want our stuff go grind it out and try not to die. I'll shove my stuff over to where conditions are better untill your group failcascades and make more ISK, friends and enemies then I would under nullsecs scrutiny.

I need to operate more outside my region to speak for low entirely, but small guys - look into Wspace and NPC null too. Apart from obvious Providence I know of NRDS groups in Great Wildlands, so it can't be that bad all over.

La Nariz wrote:
You realize all that you want to achieve can be done by nerfing highsec right? More competition means more pressure on big groups and desirable resources to play upon people's greed.

There is actually truth in this as hisec is the first obvious place to recoup losses. It also allows small groups to bolster their ranks and try again.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#447 - 2014-02-15 22:34:59 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
You realize all that you want to achieve can be done by nerfing highsec right? More competition means more pressure on big groups and desirable resources to play upon people's greed.



Wow, you couldn't be more wrong.

Or biased.


because...

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#448 - 2014-02-15 22:35:16 UTC
Before this evolves into a "nerf null/high" discussion, think about how much better it would be if the differences between the security zones were blurred instead.

(shameless plug Cool )

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#449 - 2014-02-15 23:22:44 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Is there an alternative? During the HED-GP fight there were a dozen threads about how to fix the broken nature of Sov and power projection. I don't want the little guy dicked over. I also don't want to **** over CFC into having to re-win the space they've earned. But doesn't something have to give?

i don't want to comment on sov mechanics. i'm just pointing out (again) that ziona has absolutely no interest in any 'little guy', ziona just wants to be able to destroy cfc pocos without having to fight the players who own them. and is unable to consider what that change'd do to the 'little guy' who owns structures

Lol. What a load of garbage.

I don't have any interest in POCOs per see. I didn't even bother trying to take down its 10,0000,000 hp because the stupid thing would reinforce. The point I was making regarding the POCO was how bad of a system it shows EvE to have.

When Goons bought Period basis, there were no Goons at all in the region for months. My point was despite zero Goons within 100 jumps Nobody would have been able to destroy anything because trying to, despite no Goons, the POCO would have sent an email instantly, then become invulnerable for 24 + hours and by that time Goons could dump a crapload of ships on whoever was trying to destroy the structure.

It clearly showed how big alliances could "claim" regions anywhere in EvE, and despite having no forces anywhere nearby completely stifle any chance of anyone who could and would use that space from having any space.



Yeah so.

What is it to you? You couldn't defend PB if you v wanted to, the same way Unclaimed and Tribe couldn't.....if a pair of +1000 man alliances couldn't hold PB you and your ten alts damn sure couldn't.

You know the trick to PB? You need to hold our at least have standings with whomever holds Querious AND Delve our you have no way back to empire without going through 50 jumps off hostile space.

"Yeah so" . . . It clearly shows you didn't earn your space and the only reason you keep it is because timers and auto emails along with power projection allows you to. In short these big blocs are completely propped up not by hard work and effort but by timers.

Without automatic emails and timers to protect "your PB" and not a CFC in sight for months, that space would have been taken by people who would have fought for it and used it.

CFC are simply riding the timer gravy train for everything it's worth. It's why you get all constipated and outraged when anyone criticizes timers.


I didn't earn my space?

Sure, I ground every damn system that we are sitting on. You, know that Fountain war thing.....ended with the biggest battle eve had ever seen at the time. My home system is 6VDT.

How many systems have ground down? You may also not that I'm not actually in Goonswarm, they are a different alliance.

Timers have little do with no one attacking PB, the simple fact is that its so remote no one wanted it. Tribe was holding the area, when TEST went **** up they evac'd at top speed. N3 was already up to the ears with space...contrary to the popular Goon's have half the space narrative, N3 and PL were in control of more regions than the CFC was until the Halloween war.

So they didn't want it, the CFC didn't really want it, -DD- and -A- were busy rebuilding Catch and Solar was busy moving into Querious.

So who exactly was going to jump through either -DD- / -A- and Solar, or the CFC to GET to it? Remember you can't reach PB from any low sec its two regions deep, the only NPC space nearby is Stain/Delve and the CFC as a whole was cleaning up the mess TEST left when they bailed on Delve and hauled ass for Curse.

Sorry the fact don't match your bullshit.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#450 - 2014-02-15 23:23:31 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


Fountain is pretty bloccy though.



Yeah just what we need more squatters sitting in Fountain core to clean up after Twisted
Vespiidius
The Icarus Expedition
Solyaris Chtonium
#451 - 2014-02-16 00:35:17 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
You realize all that you want to achieve can be done by nerfing highsec right? More competition means more pressure on big groups and desirable resources to play upon people's greed.


Depending on exactly what you mean by "nerf", it might help a little but fundamentally the fact is that EVE is only 7 minutes wide.


This is the fundamental problem with Null. CCP has to do something to nerf the ability for massive alliances, for any alliance to project power. Taking territory and or resources far from your center should be a major undertaking. No alliance has a prayer of growth as long as they can be dropped upon from the other side of the map in the time it takes to grab a sandwich and coffee.

Myanna wrote an awesome piece addressing with an interesting solution this which I believe can be found on the evenews24 site.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#452 - 2014-02-16 00:41:09 UTC
Vespiidius wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
You realize all that you want to achieve can be done by nerfing highsec right? More competition means more pressure on big groups and desirable resources to play upon people's greed.


Depending on exactly what you mean by "nerf", it might help a little but fundamentally the fact is that EVE is only 7 minutes wide.


This is the fundamental problem with Null. CCP has to do something to nerf the ability for massive alliances, for any alliance to project power. Taking territory and or resources far from your center should be a major undertaking. No alliance has a prayer of growth as long as they can be dropped upon from the other side of the map in the time it takes to grab a sandwich and coffee.

Myanna wrote an awesome piece addressing with an interesting solution this which I believe can be found on the evenews24 site.



yeah Nerf jump drives ....


......Great idea until you need a market.
Vespiidius
The Icarus Expedition
Solyaris Chtonium
#453 - 2014-02-16 00:49:06 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Vespiidius wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
You realize all that you want to achieve can be done by nerfing highsec right? More competition means more pressure on big groups and desirable resources to play upon people's greed.


Depending on exactly what you mean by "nerf", it might help a little but fundamentally the fact is that EVE is only 7 minutes wide.


This is the fundamental problem with Null. CCP has to do something to nerf the ability for massive alliances, for any alliance to project power. Taking territory and or resources far from your center should be a major undertaking. No alliance has a prayer of growth as long as they can be dropped upon from the other side of the map in the time it takes to grab a sandwich and coffee.

Myanna wrote an awesome piece addressing with an interesting solution this which I believe can be found on the evenews24 site.



yeah Nerf jump drives ....


......Great idea until you need a market.


You're thinking about this in a one dimensional way. The formation of markets is still possible without the massive force projection problem. In fact, without the ability to jump across eve in sub ten minutes, you might see a reason for the construction of local markets and local production. NullSec alliances refuses to sever the hisec umbilical cord because it is so easy and so profitable for a few to jump stuff down. Welping a fleet doesn't matter much when you can just jump the replacements down the next day. This backbone is just another aspect of the force projection problem.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#454 - 2014-02-16 00:53:04 UTC
Vespiidius wrote:


You're thinking about this in a one dimensional way. The formation of markets is still possible without the massive force projection problem. In fact, without the ability to jump across eve in sub ten minutes, you might see a reason for the construction of local markets and local production. NullSec alliances refuses to sever the hisec umbilical cord because it is so easy and so profitable for a few to jump stuff down. Welping a fleet doesn't matter much when you can just jump the replacements down the next day. This backbone is just another aspect of the force projection problem.


If you make it even more of a pain to live in nullsec than it is already, people won't just magically discover a market waiting there.

Given that the monetary rewards of highsec outweigh that of null already anyway, people will just leave.

That's called an inadequate solution.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#455 - 2014-02-16 01:16:46 UTC
Vespiidius wrote:

You're thinking about this in a one dimensional way. The formation of markets is still possible without the massive force projection problem. In fact, without the ability to jump across eve in sub ten minutes, you might see a reason for the construction of local markets and local production. NullSec alliances refuses to sever the hisec umbilical cord because it is so easy and so profitable for a few to jump stuff down. Welping a fleet doesn't matter much when you can just jump the replacements down the next day. This backbone is just another aspect of the force projection problem.


You are wrong, logistics is one of the reasons production and resource gathering does not happen in nullsec. The other reason being highsec is too good. For example the system of Sobaseki outclasses entire nullsec regions in production/research/refining capacity and cost effectiveness.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#456 - 2014-02-16 01:25:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Vespiidius wrote:


You're thinking about this in a one dimensional way. The formation of markets is still possible without the massive force projection problem. In fact, without the ability to jump across eve in sub ten minutes, you might see a reason for the construction of local markets and local production. NullSec alliances refuses to sever the hisec umbilical cord because it is so easy and so profitable for a few to jump stuff down. Welping a fleet doesn't matter much when you can just jump the replacements down the next day. This backbone is just another aspect of the force projection problem.


If you make it even more of a pain to live in nullsec than it is already, people won't just magically discover a market waiting there.

Given that the monetary rewards of highsec outweigh that of null already anyway, people will just leave.

That's called an inadequate solution.


The monetary rewards of highsec in no way shape or form trump those of null. It's just hilarious people drag that out.

I've lived in many null regions for about 4 years of my 10 year eve history (with 3 years being low sec and 3 being a bear... and probably a total of 4 years of inactivity spread across all of that).

I've always made mad bank in null. steady but limited in high. lowsec(aside from FW) is probably the worst for income (aside from a few niches)

But yes we shouldn't make it more of a pain to live in nullsec. We just want it to be more of a pain to project power.

The key to that is actually making null more sustainable. And that has absolutely nothing to do with isk/hr and your grass-is-greener gaze at highsec.

This lies in tons more slots and station abilities for null alliances. Something to improve inter-region trade between 0.0 stations (hey, maybe interbus can get off their asses???).

The very fact people in null need to jump to high sec to compete doesn't show how much high sec needs nerfed, it shows how little intelligent ideas and solutions have been invested into 0.0 by CCP in the last decade. All the work they've done and all we have to show for it is timers and high HP structures.

There is so much we can innovate to make null what it should be. Fix power projection. Promote conflict but also investment in 0.0

Which is why it sucks to see this pedantic "nerf highsec" hurfblerf dominate the conversation. It always comes off as a political-esque devolution.

But that's why people visit GD and not F&I, because no one is interested in real solutions, just bitching about other people.

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#457 - 2014-02-16 01:30:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Quote:
The monetary rewards of highsec in no way shape or form trump those of null. It's just hilarious people drag that out.

I've lived in many null regions for about 4 years of my 10 year eve history (with 3 years being low sec and 3 being a bear... and probably a total of 4 years of inactivity spread across all of that).

I've always made mad bank in null.


No one is arguing that the individual upper bounds of null aren't higher. They are.

But they're inherently subtractive, whereas highsec is inherently multiplicative. So unless you're a day tripper or absurdly lucky, large groups of people can make more in highsec with less initial outlay and less trouble, and be far, far safer doing it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#458 - 2014-02-16 01:43:28 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
The monetary rewards of highsec in no way shape or form trump those of null. It's just hilarious people drag that out.

I've lived in many null regions for about 4 years of my 10 year eve history (with 3 years being low sec and 3 being a bear... and probably a total of 4 years of inactivity spread across all of that).

I've always made mad bank in null.


No one is arguing that the individual upper bounds of null aren't higher. They are.

But they're inherently subtractive, whereas highsec is inherently multiplicative. So unless you're a day tripper or absurdly lucky, large groups of people can make more in highsec with less initial outlay and less trouble, and be far, far safer doing it.


Sure. I'll agree it's easier. But high sec is supposed to be easier. That's why it's there.

I think the root of the issue this particular issue is null's own self-sufficiency. isk/hr nor safety enter into it.

Why are there not more missions in null?
Allow it to gain some of that multiplicative abilities.
Why wouldn't Guristas or Angels have a shop in my station i just built/conquered/got dock rights to?

But this gets away from the topic a bit I think. Because size and projection are the main issues the little guy has no real null prospects other than renters. It's absurd a moderate group in the game can't exist if it ever falls under the sites of whoever is king of the hill at the time.

Space should matter, regions should matter. Distance and travel should matter.

Interruptible supply /travel lines should exist between areas of the game (null-to-null, highsec/lowsec-to-null, should probably separate lots of high sec with a bit of low sec too)

more commerce, ability and conflict

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Disastro
Wrecking Shots
#459 - 2014-02-16 02:01:11 UTC
Emma Muutaras wrote:
with the current state of null sec http://i.imgur.com/yRX4f1D.png (based on blue standings) what chance does a small alliance/corp that wants to be independent of the big boys have in getting a foothold in null?

it looks like you have 3 choices at the moment join cfc/rus join N3 or buy a wizards hat and join provi block.

while i admit my knowledge of everything going on in null is somewhat limited every 1 seams to say the same thing N3 while still got a lot of fight in them is on the back-foot and in full retreat that blue doughnut is getting closer and closer to being complete.

small scale pvp is getting harder and harder to find always seams to be a 30 man fleet getting dropped by a 100 man fleet, and if/when the blue doughnut is complete you may as well say large scale pvp will die as well.

yes its in the nature of sandboxes for people to group together and form massive coalitions but is this really healthy for null sec?



For a corp moving to Null sec for the first time NPC null has many advantages. Granted, the ratting isnt as good as npc space. But there are opportunities for small gang pvp and there are ways to make money there. My corp started out in Syndicate and we had a great time there shooting at all the neutrals and running and hiding in npc stations when the blobs rolled in. Now after five years or so in null sec we are back living in NPC space.

It might not be as busy now as it was then and you might have to roam a little bit farther to find action but the ability to stay in npc stations and never have to worry about sov is a huge deal. Instead of having to defend anything you can go out and provoke your neighbors and then select the fights that you want (or can win or will at least have a reasonably even chance at winning).

At any rate its a great place to start with null sec and learning the ropes. And once there you can decide if and when to go to a null sec alliance later.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#460 - 2014-02-16 02:07:23 UTC
Vespiidius wrote:


You're thinking about this in a one dimensional way. The formation of markets is still possible without the massive force projection problem. In fact, without the ability to jump across eve in sub ten minutes, you might see a reason for the construction of local markets and local production. NullSec alliances refuses to sever the hisec umbilical cord because it is so easy and so profitable for a few to jump stuff down. Welping a fleet doesn't matter much when you can just jump the replacements down the next day. This backbone is just another aspect of the force projection problem.


Local production doesn't take off because in comparison to Empire its EXTRAORDINARILY limited.

When I was in empire the leader of my coalition was a making hurricanes.......1700 at a time, so exactly HOW many outposts would you need for that? So what is the ROI when you need to build trillions in stations just to get going, THEN you have to have materials. Where the crap is that going to come from, AND without jump drives? Are we expected to run freighters back and forth? Because babysitting a frighter warping at 2AU the 38 jumps from Fountain to High Sec one way doesn't strike me as fun.

Quote:
Amarr Factory Outpost Platform Blueprint

Corporation offices: 4 Manufacturing (booster/other) slots: 10/20 30% bonus on manufacturing time Research (ME / PE / Copy / Invention) slots: 1/1/1/0
Outpost specific upgrades: * up to 9 additional manufacturing slots & faster T1 and T2 ship manufacturing * up to 4 additional ME, PE and copy slots & a speedup of production efficiency research * up to 7 additional corporation office slots * add on and upgrade - up to 30% refinery


....and look you get all of 24 slots.....only 15 or which MAX can be manufacturing

You want to see the high sec umbilical? That is why its GROSSLY inefficient to build anything in SOV null, hence why only Super Caps and Titans are built out there at all in bulk, the rest is made in Empire. I can't actually fathom what it would take to attempt to keep up with the ship losses of FA alone if we had to produce locally.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=alliance_detail&all_id=1709&view=losses&m=12&y=2013

Look at that ONE month 2800 ship losses, do you want to move that around? I don't and I'm willing to bet the logics guys don't either. They are already up to their eyeballs trying to keep the POSs fueled (ever completely fill a large tower) stont in the JB network and fuel for the capital fleets as they move around......and I burned about 30,000 topes today by myself.