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Null sec what chance does the little guy have

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#401 - 2014-02-15 15:13:43 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
If we remove timers it will mean you will have to have a fleet on guard duty 24/7 and a large one at that. We can burn through any structure in a matter of minutes so IZ's idea would make it impossible for smaller alliances to hold anything in null. Hell it would be impossible for most of the big alliances to keep hold of anything.



Pretty much this. IZ can't stand to be wrong, so he keeps pushing the issue because he's mad that as a soloh playerz he can't be impactful all on his own.

Guess what, chuckles. Go get some friends. If that's possible with a posting record like yours.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

OldWolf69
Militaris Industries
Northern Coalition.
#402 - 2014-02-15 15:20:55 UTC
Your Dad Naked wrote:
Hmmm IZ does have a point. In it's current state the powerful are given too many options.

If the largest coalition is given 24 hours notice before any of their structures can be taken down (and thus systems taken over), they are given enough time to gather the numbers they need to defend said structure. Since they have more members than any other coalition, they are in affect able to defend any and all structures as no other coalition can match that. The only way for them to lose (on paper) is to be attacked by multiple coalitions whose combined numbers exceed theirs.

This isn't broken in and of itself, it just depends what CCP wants out of the game. Do they want the most powerful entities to be almost untouchable? If so, keep the mechanics as is.

I do believe the game would be better however if they were more vulnerable. Perhaps reduce timers to 1 hour.
It then becomes a logistics issue. If a large alliance is organized well enough, they can have themselves setup in time to respond to attacks against any structures in their space.
If you don't have enough members for such a logistical plan, you should not be owning that much space. As simple as that.

Basically what I see happening is: Massive coalitions don't want to have to commit to the logistics that would be required to defend their space without 24 hour timers. As a result these coalitions control more space than they usually would be able to defend in a game without timers.

Considering the current state of null - where these massive coalitions own almost everything - I don't see how this change would be bad. It would force them to either increase their logistics or to cut down on how many systems they own, opening the landscape up to more players.

So a lot of work should be destroyed just because some solo players want a piece of the cake, but no piece of the work? Lol
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#403 - 2014-02-15 15:22:13 UTC
Your Dad Naked wrote:
Hmmm IZ does have a point. In it's current state the powerful are given too many options.

If the largest coalition is given 24 hours notice before any of their structures can be taken down (and thus systems taken over), they are given enough time to gather the numbers they need to defend said structure. Since they have more members than any other coalition, they are in affect able to defend any and all structures as no other coalition can match that. The only way for them to lose (on paper) is to be attacked by multiple coalitions whose combined numbers exceed theirs.

This isn't broken in and of itself, it just depends what CCP wants out of the game. Do they want the most powerful entities to be almost untouchable? If so, keep the mechanics as is.

I do believe the game would be better however if they were more vulnerable. Perhaps reduce timers to 1 hour.
It then becomes a logistics issue. If a large alliance is organized well enough, they can have themselves setup in time to respond to attacks against any structures in their space.
If you don't have enough members for such a logistical plan, you should not be owning that much space. As simple as that.

Basically what I see happening is: Massive coalitions don't want to have to commit to the logistics that would be required to defend their space without 24 hour timers. As a result these coalitions control more space than they usually would be able to defend in a game without timers.

Considering the current state of null - where these massive coalitions own almost everything - I don't see how this change would be bad. It would force them to either increase their logistics or to cut down on how many systems they own, opening the landscape up to more players.


Read above your post to see why it is a terrible idea and why CCP got rid of it.
Linkxsc162534
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#404 - 2014-02-15 17:17:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Linkxsc162534
This thread is getting sillier and sillier as time goes on.

On the note of being the little guy. I don't find timers to be the problem. Ofcourse they are problematic, but they're not hard to work around. For my problems as a little guy, I don't need a lot of space to hold, me and my nerds would be good with 1-2 systems, maybe 3 if we expanded. Only problem is, I have precious little way of stopping someone bigger from dropping a blob on me in seconds when they decide its time to evict me. This is because of that whole power projection/teleportation BS with a titan jumping a bunch of people over at me.

If there were some way to slow them down when I know their coming, or to slow them down after they reinforced some stuff and are coming back for the kill. Cynojammers work... a bit, but I can really only slow them down for the 1 more jump they'd need to make to get to my system. I could make an agreement with a neighbor to have them run cynojammers to slow big guys down (which isn't to unreasonable, they don't want big guys coming through themselves) but that still hits a limit.

With a cynojammer I could bring my capitals to the fight, and prevent them from bringing theirs for a time. But since aside from carriers, all caps are worthless against subcaps that would be blobbing up outside of my station and POSes, and carriers are only good for anti-subcap when theres a several of them, so little guys will still be limited.


edit. to hell with phone keyboards, how did "jumping" autocorrect to "shipping"
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#405 - 2014-02-15 17:28:37 UTC
Removed some off topic posts. Please keep it on topic and civil. Thank you.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#406 - 2014-02-15 17:41:11 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Did you really just say the idea is terrible because it will encourage you to utilize your systems (albeit with renters)? lol, how can you possibly think that is a bad thing? More people in nullsec space is a GREAT thing!!!


Yes because renting is a terrible situation that has been forced upon us because they decided to nerf alliance level income without providing well for a bottom up approach to income. I'd rather there be tonnes of new alliances making gains into nullsec than it be packed full of renters

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Onictus
Capital Fusion.
Pandemic Horde
#407 - 2014-02-15 17:46:23 UTC
Your Dad Naked wrote:


Basically what I see happening is: Massive coalitions don't want to have to commit to the logistics that would be required to defend their space without 24 hour timers. As a result these coalitions control more space than they usually would be able to defend in a game without timers.


God damned right. Without the timers there is NO safety, where are you going to PARK the logistics? Going to leave 8bil in JF in a station that any swinging **** with a couple supers can knock over in a matter of minutes?

I'm not.

Null would be a ghost town outside of jump range from null, NO ONE would be able to hold anything because because you wouldn't be able to dock, and if you did you would only keep the ship you were sitting in because (again) you never know if you are going to be able to redock when you leave or log or jump clone (you can remove JC rights as well). So great if you have an NPC pocket or low sec near by, what about the 19 or 20 regions that are three or four regions deep?

Your Dad Naked wrote:

Considering the current state of null - where these massive coalitions own almost everything - I don't see how this change would be bad. It would force them to either increase their logistics or to cut down on how many systems they own, opening the landscape up to more players.


The landscape is perfectly open, you just have to play the game. If you don't like the game as put forth by the SOV holding alliances that DID the work already, tough noodles, keep your ass in Empire.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#408 - 2014-02-15 17:48:45 UTC
Felicity Love wrote:
Diamond Zerg wrote:
The little guy has a chance if he submits to the bigger guy.



... the word "submit" being a polite way of saying "bends over". Let's not sugarcoat this part of EVE, least of all where it pertains to Null.


If you're negotiating from a position of weakness you aren't going to get the best part of the deal. Being too stubborn and prideful to accept a worse position for the short term in exchange for a better position in the future, is dumb. This isn't an RPG, you aren't the destined hero who will crush the evil hordes, you're the average dude trying to lead a bunch of other average dudes to success. Humility will get you farther than myopic views.

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Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#409 - 2014-02-15 17:52:25 UTC
OP wrote:
Null sec what chance does the little guy have


With the current state of affairs and the existing mechanics: as much of a chance as they are willing to put forth the effort for.

/thread

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

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Anomaly One
Doomheim
#410 - 2014-02-15 17:53:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Anomaly One
the current system screws over one side (the little guy)
removing timers would screw EVERYONE!
what I mean is, yes remove timers :D

Never forget. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8sfaN8zT8E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l_ZjVyRxx4 Trust me, I'm an Anomaly. DUST 514 FOR PC

admiral root
Red Galaxy
#411 - 2014-02-15 17:56:14 UTC
Felicity Love wrote:
Diamond Zerg wrote:
The little guy has a chance if he submits to the bigger guy.



... the word "submit" being a polite way of saying "bends over". Let's not sugarcoat this part of EVE, least of all where it pertains to Null.


How about seeing it as becoming a productive member of the team you join? Becoming part of something bigger doesn't have to be a bad thing.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#412 - 2014-02-15 17:56:37 UTC
Anomaly, what on earth is the point in creating a mechanic that incentivizes holding a system for a day or two?

What good does that do anyone, ever, aside from goodfeelz that they took sov?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

admiral root
Red Galaxy
#413 - 2014-02-15 17:58:47 UTC
Anomaly One wrote:
Removing timers wont affect the little guy in a bad way because they dont want to keep vast amounts of space for months/years, they could maybe hold a system for a day or 2 which is nice and dandy


A day or two? Try an hour or two.

What value do you perceive in holding space for such a short amount of time? I'm genuinely curious to know.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Anomaly One
Doomheim
#414 - 2014-02-15 18:01:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Anomaly One
well you guys picked it up quick, fixed my post..
it was a rant to show that removing timers wouldn't help

SOV null has its own unique place large fleet fights, huge coordination etc. removing timers wouldnt help it would just make it really boring after a few weeks/months and removing its unique feeling

WH has its place
high sec/low/null has its place, what i'm trying to say is we shouldn't try to change sov null to make it similar to other systems, since there's plenty of other places to do what you want, and having it as you say being ping-pong would just make it more similar to factionwarfare and remove:

1. large fleet fights
2. the purpose of organization
3. the importance of owning sov
4. working as a team/friends..
lots of other stuff

Quote:
What good does that do anyone, ever, aside from goodfeelz that they took sov?

Quote:
What value do you perceive in holding space for such a short amount of time? I'm genuinely curious to know.


Exactly there is no value, which is why removing it is a bad idea.

Never forget. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8sfaN8zT8E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l_ZjVyRxx4 Trust me, I'm an Anomaly. DUST 514 FOR PC

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#415 - 2014-02-15 18:01:56 UTC
well i thought about how allowing any large entity to knock over a starbase in a few minutes would help small alliances and i didn't have to think very long
Mourn LeBlade
Jupiter Roughriders
#416 - 2014-02-15 18:06:01 UTC
Nullsec is for neck-beards too timid for wormholes.

And by the way, the abdominal toning and tanning booth is working splendidly.

LTCOL LeBlade 177 Division Live Free or Die

Onictus
Capital Fusion.
Pandemic Horde
#417 - 2014-02-15 18:08:34 UTC
Mourn LeBlade wrote:
Nullsec is for neck-beards too timid for wormholes.

And by the way, the abdominal toning and tanning booth is working splendidly.



More like don't want to make the logistics MORE annoying.....not to mention the constant scanning get old quite quickly.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#418 - 2014-02-15 18:13:06 UTC
The bottom line of all of this is that highsec has to be nerfed, its too good to the point there are very few economic incentives in nullsec. On top of all of this bottom up income needs to be a huge thing because it encourages living and using your own space. The other half of it is that small groups who want in need to be willing to work for it and work with people. We've all seen what happens to anti-social autists (TEST) when they decide they want a slice of sov. This jolly cooperation can take a variety of forms but, it has to happen or you won't get anywhere.

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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#419 - 2014-02-15 19:05:13 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Is there an alternative? During the HED-GP fight there were a dozen threads about how to fix the broken nature of Sov and power projection. I don't want the little guy dicked over. I also don't want to **** over CFC into having to re-win the space they've earned. But doesn't something have to give?

i don't want to comment on sov mechanics. i'm just pointing out (again) that ziona has absolutely no interest in any 'little guy', ziona just wants to be able to destroy cfc pocos without having to fight the players who own them. and is unable to consider what that change'd do to the 'little guy' who owns structures

Lol. What a load of garbage.

I don't have any interest in POCOs per see. I didn't even bother trying to take down its 10,0000,000 hp because the stupid thing would reinforce. The point I was making regarding the POCO was how bad of a system it shows EvE to have.

When Goons bought Period basis, there were no Goons at all in the region for months. My point was despite zero Goons within 100 jumps Nobody would have been able to destroy anything because trying to, despite no Goons, the POCO would have sent an email instantly, then become invulnerable for 24 + hours and by that time Goons could dump a crapload of ships on whoever was trying to destroy the structure.

It clearly showed how big alliances could "claim" regions anywhere in EvE, and despite having no forces anywhere nearby completely stifle any chance of anyone who could and would use that space from having any space.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#420 - 2014-02-15 19:09:17 UTC
Quote:
I don't have any interest in POCOs per see.


Is that why you think they are Sov assets, then?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.